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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This past week I posted to YouTube an in depth study of the Greek word apollumi and its closely related noun, apoleia. In this study I carefully explain how we determine the meaning of ancient words. I then apply this technique to look at these words, which together are used in over a hundred verses in the New Testament. I conclude that these words, when used in the context of what will happen to the unsaved at the final judgment, strongly support annihilationism, not eternal torment. The video is long (105 minutes), so it is unreasonable to expect everyone who discusses this to watch the entire video first. However, I am requesting that we focus on apollumi and not on other lines of evidence in this thread. Here is the video:
     
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  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I did my own word study a few years ago and I had just the opposite conclusions.
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

    …..Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available
    = = = = = = = = = =

    ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
    to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
    α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
    β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
    ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
    α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
    β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
    1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
    to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
    to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
    ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
    Link to 1952 edition.

    http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


     
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  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Der Alte, have you watched my video?
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I don't usually do videos and if I read correctly it is almost 2 hours long. In order to do to this I would have to do what you should have done write extensive notes.
    You said the word occurs in 37 vss. ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. That is as far I'm going to with the video.
     
  5. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did NOT say the word apollumi occurs in 37 verses. I said that apollumi and apoleia together are used in 37 verses where the context indicates these words are referring to the final fate of the unsaved. In the video I clearly list every verse in the NT where either apollumi or apoleia are used.
     
  6. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I do agree as well that the soul is destroyed "fully" at the second death. If not, then we totally negate the "power of the second death".

    All throughout the bible the wages of sin is death, to perish - not eternal life in hell.

    Christ makes it so simple,

    Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."

    From the Strongs Greek word 622 apollumi - to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose), lt. or fig: -destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    In context to the verse, we see that it means destroy "fully"
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are more than likely quoting the online Strong's which is NOT a lexicon but a concordance. A concordance only shows where words occur and how they are translated in the KJV.
    The out-of-copyright Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
    Please see my post [#2] above.
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment.
     
  8. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for interacting with my post.
    I address the different uses of apollumi throughout the NT in my video in a fair amount of detail. The types of claims you and I are each making cannot be settled through short comments. I encourage people to watch the video and also look at your comments and decide for themselves.
     
  9. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I'm using my Strong's Exhaustive on my desk, but that aside, we have to take the bible as a whole and not lose context of how certain words/phrases are utilized in verses, etc. And really common sense alone tells us that the first death is of the flesh body (something Christ told us not to fear) and the second would be the soul, but ok.

    And what you're basically saying is death and perishing actually means "eternal life" as well but only in hell. Got it....
     
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  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Julie, your common sense is backed up by the Bible! People often ignore the first use "second death," which is not at the end of Revelation, but near the beginning of Revelation. It's important to pay attention to both the word "death" in vs. 10 and the phrase "second death" in vs 11. Here it is with a little context:


    CSB17 Revelation 2:10 Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will experience affliction for ten days. Be faithful to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    11 "Let anyone who has ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will never be harmed by the second death.

    In vs. 10, death is talking about the literal loss of life. What else might it mean? Clearly Jesus is not telling these faithful, courageous Christians to be faithful until they are separated from Him! If death means "loss of life" in vs. 10, why would they think it had a drastically different meaning in vs. 11? Both the 1st death and the 2nd death refer to literal death, a literal loss of life. The differences between the two death are that:
    1. The second death will last forever. There is no resurrection from the 2nd death!
    2. The second death affects BOTH the body and the soul (see Matthew 10:28)
     
  11. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The lake of fire passages, in context.
    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
    …..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
    The lake of fire”
    is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    …..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who can only be a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
    Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
    But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
    ….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    . Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
    No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
    If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.” If those thrown into the LOF do, in fact, die the Rev 21:4 is wrong.
    Now the last chapter.

    Revelation 22:11-12
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    If all mankind are going to be saved vs. 11 should not be in the Bible. Vs. 12 Are the filthy and unjust vs. 11 going to be reward with eternal life?
    Revelation 22:15
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Almost the end and there are still dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars outside remaining unjust and filthy.
    Revelation 22:18-19
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Two vss. to the end and instead everybody being saved Kumbaya, people are still being threatened with punishment.



     
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  12. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Jesus does not say that the second death is the death of the soul or anything like that.
    Have I, at any time, ever said anything I did not back up with scripture?
    I don't give my unsupported opinion I always quote scripture to back up what I say.
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That of course is baloney.

    Dr. James Strong provided Lexicons in all 'real' editions of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Only in the 1990's have some false scribes pushed fake editions leaving Dr. Strong's Lexicons out.

    And those fakes also are the ones behind claims of that 15,000 errors.
     
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  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are dreadfully misinformed. I have the newest edition of Strong's published in 2001 and the word "Concordance" does NOT appear anywhere in it.
    Strong never identifies his concordance as a lexicon.
    All Strong's does is list where words occur and how they are translated in the KJV.
     
  15. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, if you're looking for exact wording, you could defend that statement. But if you believe that the second death is what happens to people in hell, than Jesus does essentially say that (both the body and) the soul will be destroyed in hell. And the word used for "destroyed" is also often translated actively "to kill" or passively "to perish." So actually Jesus does say "anything like that." Here's the verse:

    ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
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  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    So many people advocating this position I wonder why there is not at least one verse, two or more would be better, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, no matter, even after death.
    What God created He certainly can destroy but I do not know of one verse which states God has or will destroy one soul in hell or anywhere else.
    But Jesus did say,

    Matthew 25:46
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    What did Jesus mean by “aionios?”
    …..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
    However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
    …..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
    …..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

    [1] Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
    In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [2] John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3] John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [4]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
    [5] John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
    In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [6]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
    In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.
    [9]John 6:27
    (27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [10]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
     
  17. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!

    You and I see something completely different when we read Matthew 10:28 because I believe that's exactly what he is saying what will happen to the soul.

    And death of the soul is everlasting punishment, you can never come back from that.
     
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  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse say God has or intends to destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.
    Jesus taught,

    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
    If souls are destroyed in hell what does it matter how long the fire burns?
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    A fate worse than death.
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    Depart from me is not destroyed in Hell.
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    If souls are destroyed in Hell, how can that be more tolerable that what happens to the people Lk 10:10?
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
    …..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    …..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    ….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
    When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?


     
  19. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ever read Matthew 10:28?

    ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Evidently you have not read it. Where does this verse say, "fear him who will destroy both soul and body in hell?"
    What God created He can most certainly destroy but I am not aware of even one verse where God says He has or will destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.
     
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