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Featured Apocalypse of the final days - the wood in the forest

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Fullness of the Gentiles, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The 1260 days, the 42 months and the 3 1/2 years are all the same time period. It is the time that Satan will have world control, Rev 13, it will be the Great Trib, as Rev 8 to 16 describe and also the time the 2 Witness's will preach.
    Jesus will Return on the 1260th Day.
    But it is a time of peace and nothing happens. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 32:15-20
    There is plenty about the second half of this 7 year peace treaty, because it is broken by the AC and God's wrath, as described in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is let loose.
     
  2. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Together with whom? Those who had died in Christ and were raised first:

    1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    (A) We shall not ALL sleep. (B) But we shall ALL be changed.
     
  3. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    You say the 1260 days and 42 months and 3.5 years are all the
    same time period... but that is not correct. The 1260 days are
    the period when the Two Witness (representing the Church) testify.
    while the 3.5 "times" and "days" and "years" are AFTER their testimony:


    Rev 11:3-4
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall
    prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days,
    clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the
    two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    Rev 11:7
    And when they shall have finished their testimony
    , the beast
    that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
    and shall overcome them, and kill them.


    So clearly the 1260 days of the testimony of the Two Witnesses
    (During the Great Commission) is a DIFFERENT TIME than the 42 months
    or 3.5 years AFTER their testimony "is finished". This Biblical reality is shown here:



    (1) The "Witnesses" which are "overcome" and "killed" by Satan
    for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11] This is during he Revelation Beast

    (2) The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for forty-two months
    or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11] This is during the Revelation Beast

    (3) The "Ruler of the Last Saints" as the Anti-Christ "makes war" forty-two months
    or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13] This is during he Revelation Beast


    I think it's fair to say you are incorrect saying the 1260 days of testimony
    is the SAME TIME as the 3.5 "times" or 3.5 "days" or 3.5 years the Beast Rules.
    It is critically important for you to understand this CONTEXT... I hope you do now.


    (4) Rev 11:11-12

    And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
    and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And
    they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.
    And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


    But then you say Rev 8 to 16 also describe the time the 2 Witness preach...
    but we have already seen in (#1) above that the witness are KILLED in Rev 11.
    So that statement is obviously incorrect also.


    I hope you do NOT think that Revelation is presented in chronological order.
    The Revelation Beast is destroyed in chapter 6 and chapter 11 and chapter 18
    and chapter 19... so there is no way possible the Book is in chronological order.


    I hope YOU can see that your opening statements are just WRONG...
    Now let me examine the issue I first addressed about a period when
    nothing is happening during the Revelation Beast:


    You say:
    But it is a time of peace and nothing happens. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 32:15-20
    There is plenty about the second half of this 7 year peace treaty, because it is broken
    by the AC and God's wrath, as described in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is let loose



    Amo 9:13-15
    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
    and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet
    wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
    and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards,
    and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
    And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their
    land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.


    However, we have already seen (#4) above that AFTER the 3.5 days
    the 2 Witness arise and are told to "Come up Hither" and they then
    "ascended to heaven in a cloud". So Amos 9 could NOT be talking
    about the time when the Witness preach or the time AFTER they arise.
    You are simply placing Amos 9 in the Revelation Beast when the context
    refutes your premise.




    Isaiah 32:15-20
    Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field,
    and the fruitful field be counted for a forest. Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness,
    and righteousness remain in the fruitful field. And the work of righteousness shall be peace;
    and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. And my people shall dwell
    in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places; When it shall hail,
    coming down on the forest; and the city shall be low in a low place. Blessed are ye that sow
    beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.


    Again we see that your "proof passage" has NOTHING to do with the time
    when the 2 Witness lay "dead in the street" OR the time when they are called
    to "Come up Hither". You are simply placing Isaiah 32 in the Revelation Beast
    when the context refutes your premise.



    Finally you say:
    There is plenty about the second half of this 7 year peace treaty, because it is broken
    by the AC and God's wrath, as described in the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls is let loose



    Obviously the PROBLEM you have is you have not established that
    there is a 7 year "peace treaty" when the 2 Witness lay "dead in the Street"
    or when the 2 Witness are commanded to "Come up Hither".


    Now, you CLAIM the second half of the Revelation Beast is described
    in the 7 Trumpets. But the first 4 Trumpets [Rev 8] occur BEFORE the
    Revelation Beast even starts [at the 5th Trumpet of Rev 9:1] and the
    5th, 6th and 7th Trumpet are NOT shown to be a peaceful time.



    Your eschatology does not harmonize with ANYTHING about the EVENTS
    occurring in the 5th Trumpet (1st Woe) or the 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe)
    or the 7th Trumpet (the eternal 3rd Woe). Your eschatology is a mess.


    And I suspect that is because you assign OT passage (Like Amos 9/Isaiah 32)
    to represent events during the Revelation Beast when the CONTEXT does not
    allow such a premise.


    I am sorry to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about
    with regard to the Revelation Beast. And this is PROVEN by the events
    occurred by the 2 Witnesses. You cannot harmonize Scriptures about the
    time they lay "dead in the street" OR the time they "ascend to heaven"


    .
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    The time of the harvest is not on the "beast" time table. Your problem is that the harvest has been going on for 2000 years.

    The harvest is only a 2 or 3 year period. The Lamb will be on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then it is the Second Coming. The timeline is about God. It is not about a beast kingdom. The Lamb is the one doing the harvest. The judgments are outlined, but they go on during the harvest, not in addition to. But I am not here to rufute you. Not my job. I am only here to warn people that the time is now to be prepared. My goal is 10 wise virgins. So far, I only see 9.5 foolish virgins. We are not supposed to join the Revelation Beast kingdom. This is not an either or binary revelation. It is based on what the church does while she still has the keys of the kingdom.
     
  5. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I know you think you have this all figured out. But the fact of the matter is that the Roman Empire and every other empire and kingdom on earth made war against the saints and overcame them for over 1400 years after Christ came.

    That never changed until the Bible got into the hands of the general public starting in the 15th century. Since then the nations that are most influenced by the Bible have quite naturally been dominant In the world. Those nations Christians have been the 1st generations to fully have the opportunity to have all the earthly promises of God fulfilled in their lives. Something that was not possible in the hundreds of previous generations. Even though the promises were made millennia ago. ​
     
  6. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    First, I do not have a "problem with the "harvest" and it has not
    been going on for 2000 years (as you claim above) and it does not occur
    in only a 2 or 3 periods (as you claim above)


    Second... let me make a distinction about the "harvests"...
    I am interested in talking about the FINAL HARVEST. But any Saint
    should realize the FINAL HARVEST is the last in a series of harvests.


    The First Harvest is when God gathered all the living Saints OUT
    of the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" on Noah's Ark.
    [which is a picture of Christ]


    The Second Harvest is when God gathered all the living Saints OUT
    of the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] into the
    Christian Kingdom as they followed Jesus and His disciples.
    That "harvest" is shown here:


    Joh 4:35
    Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest?
    behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields;
    for they are white already to harvest.


    The Third Harvest is when God gathered all the living Saints OUT
    of the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 verses)
    into the Great Tribulation Kingdom. That "harvest" is shown here:


    Mat 25:1
    Then
    [at that time] shall the [Fourth or Great Tribulation]
    "Kingdom of Heaven" be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS
    [also called the ten "Kings" and the ten "Horns"] which took their
    lamps
    [took their Gospels] and went forth [from the Christian "Kingdom"
    into the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"]
    to meet the Bridegroom
    [to meet the Returning Lord Jesus Christ]


    So those are the first four (4) "harvests" in history...
    But I am interested in talking about the FINAL HARVEST that occurs
    just before the END of the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast.
    That FINAL HARVEST is shown here:


    (1) In Revelation 18 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom is shown [v.2] as
    "Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen". The "Final Harvest" of Saints, immediately before
    the destruction of Babylon, is shown [v.4] as the Lord Commands the Last Saints to
    "Come out of her, My people". And Saints are told [v.20] to "rejoice" over the destruction
    of Babylon for "God hath avenged you on her". [a reference to Rev 6:9-11 or Fifth Seal]


    (2) In Revelation 19 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.20] as the False Prophet and
    Revelations Beast are "cast alive" into the eternal "Lake-of-Fire". The "Final Harvest"
    immediately before destruction of the "great whore" [v.2] is shown as the Last Saints are
    commanded [v.17] to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER of the Great God".
    Then again [v.9] the "Final Harvest" is shown when the Last Saints are "called unto the
    MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb"
    . And once more we see [v.2] that, when God destroys
    the Kingdom of "Babylon the Great", He also "hath avenged the blood of His servants".
    [again a reference to the Fifth Seal of Rev 6:9-11]


    (3) In Revelation 11 the destruction of Babylon is shown [v.13] as a "great earthquake",
    and the "Final Harvest" is shown [v.12] as the Saints are commanded to "Come up hither.
    And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud
    ". Again the "Final Harvest" is shown occurring
    immediately before destruction of the Fourth Beast. However, this time, the Bible reveals
    [v.14] the TIME for fulfillment of this event is just before the end of the "Second Woe"...
    that is important.


    (4) In Matthew 25 the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of "Babylon the Great" is shown
    [v.10] when the "Door was Shut". The "Final Harvest" is again shown [v.10] as a "Marriage"
    with "they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage". Again, the "Final Harvest" occurs
    before the "Door was Shut". However, in this case we see [v.11] there's a period on earth
    after the "Final Harvest" is finished... as the Bible reveals "afterward came also the other virgins"
    [the foolish virgins] This period after the "Door was Shut" is the period, the Bible specifically
    NAMES as being the "Season and Time". [also shown in Dan 12 as the "time-of-the-end"]


    (5) In Daniel 7 the destruction of the Fourth Beast is shown [v.11] when "the Beast was slain,
    and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame
    ". The "Final Harvest" of Saints is shown
    [v.18] as "the Saints of the Most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom forever,
    even for ever and ever
    ". Again, the "Final Harvest" of the Great Tribulation Saints is shown [v.22]
    when "Judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom".

    In Daniel 7 the Bible actually reveals the NAME of the period on earth after the "Final Harvest"
    of the Last Saints, and after destruction of the Fourth Beast. The Bible [Dan 7:12] specifically
    NAMES this period the "Season and Time". [shown in Dan 12 as the "time-of-the-end"]


    So you can clearly see the Last Saints are WELL AWARE of all the "harvests" of Saints
    throughout history. And, while I do not mind talking about the first four (4) "harvests"
    I was especially interested in talking about the "Final Harvest" which occurs NOT during
    the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" but in the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven".


    Of course the reader must wonder WHY this information has never been "revealed" before?
    And the answer is: this is just PART of the Biblical mysteries God PROMISED would remain
    "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints until the Last Saints [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10] and this
    is PART of the testimony of those Last Saints as we are commanded to "prophesy again"
    as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11].


    In any case, I am interested in talking about ANY of these "harvests", but I am especially
    interested in talking about the "Final Harvest" occurring at the end of the Great Tribulation
    "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. Hopefully some readers will be interested in discussing
    these "harvests" of Saints throughout history and especially the "Final Harvest".


    Jim
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The 3 1/2 days the two Witnesses lie dead in Jerusalem, must be part of their 1260 days of testifying. They will be killed at day 1256.5, from when the Temple is desecrated by the AC sitting in the Holy of Holies.
    Even their dead bodies testify; to their murder!
    Jesus will call them up when He Returns and they will be resurrected along with all the martyrs of the Great Tribulation.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Would be great if you had a timeline chart showing how all those things fit together.
     
  9. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Please do not try to re-write Scripture.
    The Bible says the Two Witness testify for 1260 days...
    you say it's 1256.5... I will believe the Bible not you.

    Second Rev 12 also talks about the "woman" (NT church)
    being protected for the SAME 1260 days... why do you
    intentionally ignore that RELATED PASSAGE?

    Everything else you said is your private interpretation.
    Do not get me wrong (a) you are entitled to design your
    own private interpretations and (b) I could not care less
    what you believe.

    However, when you claim the BIBLE says something it does not,
    (like 1260 really means 1256.5) then I will CORRECT YOU from
    Scripture and you will be forced to REJECT or intentionally
    IGNORE related verses to protect your designed "works".
    Good luck with that.

    .
     
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That is hilarious... the 1260 days of testimony INCLUDE
    the 3.5 days when they are "dead in the street".

    BTW you need to harmonize that 3.5 day period with all the OTHER
    3.5 "times/days/years/watches" before you can even pretend to
    have found Biblical Truth.

    Biblical Truth can only be found when you have harmony with
    ALL RELATED Scripture. When you have only ONE VERSE and
    ignore several RELATED verses you can only offer some
    partial-truth (at best)

    .
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I do not see why the deaths of the two Witnesses and their laying in the street for three and a half days, is not a testimony - against their killers.

    The Bible does not say this is wrong, that you reject it, with your usual derogatory unpleasantness, is your style. Only you have the truth?
     
  12. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    First I have not used "derogatory unpleasantness"... why would you say that?
    Show me the words... or is it just that I refute your theories?

    The death of the Two Witnesses is the END of the Great Commission... can you "see" that?
    The 3.5 days they lay dead are the SAME PERIOD as the 3.5 "times" and the 3.5 years and
    the 3.5 "watches of the night"... if you cannot HARMONIZE all related verses then HOW can
    you expect to understand the CONTEXT of the 3.5 days?

    The "testimony" is not against "their killers" (as if you know who that was)...
    instead their "testimony" was the Great Commission. How can you miss that
    if you understand the Two Witness = the church... as the "woman" [Rev 12]
    represents the church (and the 1260 days of the witnesses and the woman
    are the SAME period of time - the Great Commission)

    /
     
  13. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    You don't "know" what I think. Who are you? God?

    Nevertheless I see you think you know what I think - but do you "know" you have it all figured out?

    One Bible prophecy book, many interpretations. I would exhort anyone reading anything you say and I say, not to believe that either you or I have it all figured out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  14. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    (1) First, their "testimony" consists of 1260 days.
    The Bible NEVER says their DEATH is a "testimony"
    You have twistied that Scripture in your own mind
    READ the words of the Scripture and NOT what
    you WANT them to say.

    (2) I do know WHAT you think because you express it over-and-over.
    I don't need to be God to know what you think... I only need to read what you say.
    A fallacious argument

    (3) I only have it "figured out" because I am one of the last "wise virgins"
    and the Bible PROMISES we "shall understand" Daniel's prophecies and
    Jesus PROMISES we "shall see ALL these things" and God PROMISES
    we shall preach these "mysteries" as the Seventh Trumpet
    "begins to sound"

    (4) The Bible has ONE TRUE "interpretation" and God PROMISED
    the Last Saints "shall understand" that Truth. It is not a situation
    where (a) you can "figure it out" and (b) where one opinion
    is just as good as the other.

    Since you still do not "understand" Daniel's sealed prophecies... as the Bible PROMISED
    and you have no "seen" the fulfillment of Great Tribulation prophecies... as Jesus PROMISED
    and you are not preaching these mysteries as the Trumpet "begins to sound.. as God PROMISED
    then Christ will come as a thief in the night for you... if we DARE to believe what the Bible says.


    .
     
  15. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    And yet here is only ONE correct Bible "interpretation" which the Bible PROMISES
    the Last Saints ["wise virgins"] SHALL UNDERSTAND [Dan 12:8-10] and which
    Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things" [Mat 24:15 and 33]
    and which God PROMISED the Last Saints shall preach these Biblical "mysteries"
    as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".

    But to all who are NOT included in the Last Saints [wise virgins] God PROMISED
    the day would come as a "thief in the night"

    Mat 24:37-40
    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking,
    marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
    the coming of the Son of man be
    .
    .
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    If you use the # 3.5 to harmonize the 2 witnesses, you have 3.5 years and 3.5 days. Both periods in harmony are a witness and testimony. One being in a living state. One being in a dead state.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Yes; the fact the 2 Witnesses are killed and lay exposed on the street and the people celebrate for that final 3 1/2 days; THEN they will be visibly raised up and taken to heaven, will be the greatest proof of their testimony. A earthquake, killing 7000, reinforces their divine commission. Revelation 11:11-13
    The vehement objections of 5th K, are invalid.
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    First... WHAT is the "testimony" of the Two Witnesses?

    Second... WHO do the Two Witnesses represent?

    Third... WHY do you ASSUME the 3.5 days are literal and NOT related to
    the 3.5 "times" or the 3.5 years or the 3.5 watches... a lot of assumptions

    Fourth... WHO are the people seeing the Witnesses dead in the Street?

    Fifth... WHERE is this street?

    Sixth... WHEN does this occur in history.

    That is the who/what/when/where/why of the Two Witnesses.
    If you understand the prophecy you should have no problem
    explaining these questions.

    Finally... I would appreciate it if you stopped building strawmen around
    everything I say. Be honest. Address my points and not a strawman.
    Can you do that?

    .
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    1/ They proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Just like the 144,000 do too.
    2/ They represent the 2 olive trees and the 2 Lamps of God's Church on earth.
    3/ The 3 1/2 days and the 3 1/2 years are both literal time periods.
    4/ People from all over the world, all followers of the Anti-Christ
    5/ In Jerusalem.
    6/ Commencing at the mid point of the 70th 'week' and ending 3 1/2 years later, when Jesus Returns.

    Please tell me what I said that you construe as a 'strawman', a diversion from the topic.
     
  20. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The question I asked you was WHO do the Two Witnesses
    represent?

    You say the represent the 2 Olive trees and 2 Lamps of God's Church
    on earth is simply repeating Rev 14...


    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    Clearly they are not trees - and they are not candlesticks...
    Obviously they are real PEOPLE since they are killed,
    and people "see" them lay dead in the street.


    Do they represent he church?
    Does the church lay dead for 3.5 days?
    Is the Church raised up into heaven after 3.5 days?


    Or do they represent individual people - if so WHO?
    Moses and Elijah, or some other people?
    Who are they?


    If you don' know... just say so.

    .
     
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