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Featured Apocalypse of the final days - the wood in the forest

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Fullness of the Gentiles, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    "..and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation." Rev 13:7.

    Christ's Revelation was meant for all saints,
    but especially for those who will be living during the final 3 1/2 years of the Age.

    I​

    The first thing we need to bear in mind is that when God's people suffered oppression and tribulation in Egypt, they remained in Egypt even while the plagues were coming upon Egypt - some of which were brought about through God's two witnesses in Egypt (Moses and Aaron):

    GOD'S TWO WITNESSES IN EGYPT: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD.

    Exo 7:19-20 "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters,

    that they may become blood.

    And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels."

    "And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants.

    And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

    THE TWO WITNESSES OF THE REVELATION: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD.

    Rev 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy.

    And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

    Rev 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

    II
    The second thing we need to bear in mind is that there is a difference between the tribulation suffered by God's people at the hand of Pharaoh, and the plagues that were coming upon Egypt.

    Likewise, the New Testament makes a clear distinction between tribulation on one hand, and "the seven last plagues" (also called the vials of wrath) of the Revelation, on the other hand:

    thlipsis-skandalizo.png

    Great Trib Persecution-Tribulation.png

    Great Trib Pharaoh-Beast.png

    III

    The third thing we should bear in mind is that the beast has already made its appearance by the time the first plague or "vial of wrath" is poured out:
    --------------------------------------------------------​
    "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." Rev 16:2
    ----------------------------------------------------------​
    * The 5th trumpet talks about the bottomless pit being opened, and we know that the beast rises from the bottomless pit (Rev 17:8) and receives its power, throne and great authority from the dragon (Rev 13:2).

    * The 6th trumpet talks about a massive army being released to kill 1/3 of the world's population.
    * The 6th vial talks about the beast gathering his armies for the battle of Armageddon.
    -------------------------------------------------------------​
    "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." Rev 9:16 (6th trumpet).

    "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." Rev 16:16 (6th vial).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------​
    * The 7th trumpet talks about the result of the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.
    * The 7th vial talks about the result of the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.

    IV Summarizing the wood

    * 5th seal: The souls of the martyrs cry out from the altar and they are told to wait a little while till the full number of their brothers who are to be killed as they were, is complete.

    * 5th trumpet: The bottomless pit (from which the bast ascends) is opened.

    * 5th vial is poured out "upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

    * 6th seal: there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

    We are told that all men are trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb at this time. This suggests that The Lord Jesus Christ has now appeared in the clouds:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------​
    "Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    It also re-affirms what Jesus said during His Olivet Discourse:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------​
    Mat 24:29-31 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

    And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    The above most certainly would cause all men to try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------​
    "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mat 24:31).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------​
    So that's the 6th seal - it's telling us about what follows the final tribulation period, which is a tribulation to be faced by the saints at the hand of the beast.

    In the midst of the Revelation concerning the 6th vial, we read Jesus interjecting:

    "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15).

    Immediately afterward (still in the 6th vial) we are told about the beast gathering his armies together to the place called in Hebrew "Armageddon":

    * The 6th trumpet talks about a massive army being released to kill 1/3 of the world's population.
    * The 6th vial talks about the beast gathering his armies for the battle of Armageddon, with Jesus interjecting to say He is coming as a thief.
    * The 6th seal talks about people trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb.

    * The 7th trumpet talks about the result of the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.
    * The 7th vial talks about the result of the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.

    * The 7th seal seems to be telling us that the events of the trumpets will only take place after the 7th seal is opened - and yet the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all mention "noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake".

    It's not that difficult to understand, when we understand that tribulation refers to the experience of saints at the hand of "beasts", and seven last plagues or bowls of wrath refers to what comes upon the kingdom of the beast, just like the plagues came upon the kingdom of Pharaoh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Is this a harvest like Jesus claims or not?

    Moses was not harvesting the Hebrews out of Egypt. He was freeing them from bondage. If the church is in bondage to this world, it is no longer the church. God be looking for another group of people.

    If this is a harvest, the church gets harvested first. The seals are opened first. The reason why they seem similar is because they happen the same way for each harvest. NOT because the harvest is singular. The vials is not even a harvest. It is the destruction of Satan and dead humans. They died when they were marked 666. Their names no longer in the Lamb's book of life. What are church folk doing among the dead? Please tell me how folks do not understand how to harvest properly. You do not leave the best for last. You take the best out first. God says only two literal humans go through the vials as His only witnesses and they are dead on the ground when it happens.

    Compare judgments all you want. God does not change. What God does not do, is harvest like a dumb city person trying to farm. Yes Jesus said the tares could not come out first. That did not mean the church could not come out first. The tares STAY on the earth and get burned up, or flooded out by Satan so he can do his dirty work with any humans left. But if there are any left during Satan's 3.5 years, they are the living dead. They have a mark 666, proving they are dead, or they get their heads cut off to prove they are dead. Then if the 7 vials do not finish them off, they fight in Armageddon and the Lamb finishes the harvest then.

    But a good farmer, takes out the church. Then separates the sheep and the goats. Then harvest the wheat and leaves the tares in the field.

    Could God do it in one hour all at once? Sure, but that is not what John wrote. John says the Lamb opens the seals. Then God on the throne and the Lamb appear. Then the 144K are sealed. Then the 7th seal.

    Then the 6 Trumpets. Then the 7 thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet. Not at the same time. Definitely not during Satan's 3.5 years. Humans do endure 5+ more years, but not like it happens at the same time. The last 3.5 years, no one endures. No one gets raptured but those two who lay dead for 3.5 days. Any one who thinks millions of dead bodies lay in the street for 3.5 days, when God says only 2, are not good at math, nor the space neccessary in the city of Jerusalem. In fact, John in chapter 7 says the church is in the temple of God. He never says they leave to die later. 2, just 2 die. Not even 144K, no just 2.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I read through your post - and it was very hard to understand.

    If you are going to make a post like that - in your first introductory sentence you should explain what you are trying to do in the post. Such as.... In this post, I am going to show or attempt to show..........

    What you really need to do is make a timeline chart with the things you think are important to put on it. Start with something basic, and keep improving it.

    My timeline chart of the 7yr 70th week, I started a year ago. The first chart is the initial chart. And the second chart is after all the changes I have made in the past year, to date. What I should probably do is post both charts, because the latest version of the chart is overwhelming for some people. upload_2020-7-2_13-57-46.jpeg
    _______________________________________________________________________________


    upload_2020-7-2_13-58-52.jpeg
     
  4. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    If what you are saying is "Pre-trib Rapture" you provide no scripture verses in your post. All I've done is to summarize what scripture says.
     
  5. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    No offense but your chart is also difficult to understand. E.G there is no E.U in the Bible. No reference to a physical 3rd temple either. Gog-Magog comes at the close of the millennium, 1,000 years later, soon before the GWT, etc etc.

    I was sticking only to Bible passages and types, so perhaps that's why it's confusing to you, because I never added anything.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where are Jesus's armies mentioned in Revelation 11 ? And versus the beast and his armies ?
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The topics associated with the end times are extremely complex. My first chart is fairly simple. It should be easy to understand - but not necessarily agreed to.

    Why don't you try your hand at a basic chart.

    Guess what the United States in not in the bible by name, China is not in the bible by name, Islam is certainly not in the bible by name, the United Kingdom is not in the bible by Name,..... so why are you complaining about the EU not being the bible by name? I don't get it.

    Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not at the end of the millennium, but I don't want to stray off on that topic.

    All I am saying is that you need to work on your communication skills.
     
  8. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    The armies the Lord which fight against the beast, which results in the kingdoms of this world (the kingdoms of the beast) becoming the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ (Rev 11:15) are mentioned in Rev 19, from verse 11 onward. There's also a statement in Rev 17 of the 10 kings making war against the Lamb, and being overcome by Him; and there is also a statement in Rev 16 regarding the beast gathering his armies for the battle of Armageddon at the time of the 6th bowl of wrath. (PS - the Lord's Revelation does not mention Gog-Magog till after the thousand years).
     
  9. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    No I don't believe in creating timelines and putting dates into the Lord's Revelation when He never gave us dates or timelines. There's some stuff that doesn't belong in your timeline at all, such as the identity of the beast (probably not the E.U) - and that's the problem with timelines.

    Jesus' Revelation, on the other hand, tells us that the beast will reign for 42 months and will be destroyed by Christ upon His return. Hence Jesus has told us about the final 3 1/2 years of the Age - but he never gave us any dates or identities of beasts and false prophet, save to compare the beast with a lion, a bear, and a leopard - the same symbolism used by Daniel for the empires of Babylon, Persia, and Greece.

    Also, the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the "week" during which Christ was crucified.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where are you reading that in the bible?
    You are rationalizing. On my chart I show the timing of the 7th angel sounding. It is not near the end of the great tribulation as you are thinking. Those "days of the voice of the seventh angel" are a time, times, half time long.

    Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
     
  11. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    I disagree. Daniel states that the beast will reign for a time, times and a half and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished - it's at the close of the final 3.5 years that the 7th trumpet sounds (and that's what the Revelation says, too).
     
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  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You make yours without all the errors you think I have in mine. Jesus did give timeframes by which to understand how the events could be understood to fit together.

    There is an abundance of information, which it takes years to digest.

    Jesus also gave the parable of the fig tree to know what generation should expect all the things he spoke about in Matthew 24:15-30 including His Return will happen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Here is what I would like for you to do... list all of the timeframes and bible passage reference, by placing them in either the first half of the seven years, or the second half of the seven years.

    I will start with one, to give you an example.

    In the first half of the 7 years

    1260 days Revelation 11:3

    In the second half of the 7 years
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  14. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. (Dan 7:25)

    And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. (Rev 13:5)

    And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (Dam 12:7)

    And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongues and nation. (Rev 13:7).

    And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:5-7).

    So at the close of the 3 1/2 years, when the Lord appears in the clouds to gather His elect, then those who died in Christ will rise again from the dead, and those who are still alive and remain shall be changed, and shall be caught up together with those who had risen from the dead, to meet the Lord in the air. It's then that the Lord comes down with His saints clothed in fine linen to defeat the armies of the beast, and the seventh trumpet sounds.
    Read what the Bible tells you, without adding to it:

    And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. (Dan 7:25)

    And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. (Rev 13:5)

    And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (Dam 12:7)

    And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. (Rev 13:7).

    And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:5-7).

    So at the close of the 3 1/2 years, when the Lord appears in the clouds to gather His elect, then those who died in Christ will rise again from the dead, and those who are still alive and remain shall be changed, and shall be caught up together with those who had risen from the dead, to meet the Lord in the air. It's then that the Lord comes down with His saints clothed in fine linen to defeat the armies of the beast, and the seventh trumpet sounds.
     
  15. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    You need to read "The Atonement Clock" to find out how far you are out about the 1260 days and the 1335 days etc. It's a really good book, and there's a lot more to it than counting actual days in chronological order from a start date you have given yourself, to an end date.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You have cited the time, times, half time in Daniel 12:7
    You have cited the time, times, half time in Daniel 7:25
    You have cited the the 42 months in Revelation 13:5
    You have left out the 42 months in Revelation 11:2
    You have left out the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6
    You have left out the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:14
    You have left out the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:11

    I will put a few of the above the ones in blue in the appropriate place. You put the rest.

    In the first half of the 7 years

    1260 days Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

    In the second half of the 7 years
    3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Does the author provide a timeline chart?

    Does the author show the 1335 days ending the Day Jesus Returns?
    Does the author show the 2300 days ending the Day Jesus Returns?
     
  18. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    The Bible says nothing about the first 3.5 years of the final 7 years before Christ's return - unless you're misinterpreting Daniel's 70th week and assuming there's a 2,000 jump between the 69th week of years and the 70th week. Jesus says nothing in the Revelation about the years preceding the final 3.5 years (which is the reign of the beast).

    The only city the Revelation calls "the holy city" is New Jerusalem. It's referring symbolically to the camp of the saints who are on earth. Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in the Revelation. Paul says she is in bondage with her children.

    The fact that John is told that the holy city will be trampled underfoot for 42 months (Rev 11:2), is the same as Daniel saying the holy people will be given into the hands of the beast for a time, times and a half a time.

    1,260 days is the same period - and the temple referred to in Rev 11 is the tabernacle of God (Greek: naos). Note: The Greek word for the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem + Jesus body is naos. The temple buildings and precincts were called hieron. But the Greek word naos is only used in reference to the holy place of the Jerusalem temple until the time of the tearing of the veil, but never again after that. From then on, the Greek word naos only appears when Paul refers to the individual bodies of believers the temple, and the congregation of believers as the temple, and in each reference to the heavenly temple in the Revelation.

    The Greek word used for the temple John is told to measure in the Revelation is not hieron - it's naos. It's symbolically telling us that John was told to count the sheep because the camp of the saints is going to be trampled underfoot by the beast.

    You have to leave both Daniel's 70th week and the earthly Jerusalem completely out of your picture for Revelation 11 because if you don't your timeline will be wrong (which it is because you included earthly Jerusalem, conjecture and a false interpretation of Daniel's 70th week.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  19. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    It's not calculated the way you think it is.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am not the one misinterpreting the 490 years of prophecy in Daniel 9.

    The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is in the bible. Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made it a requirement of all leaders of Israel to make a speech to the nation of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles, from the place of God's choosing, that the land of Israel would belong to the children of Israel as theirs forever. The speech is to be made on 7 year interval.

    I have talked to the Jews about the necessity of the speech and they said yes it has to be done. but the problem is that they said the temple mount is where they consider the place of God's choosing - which for obvious reasons cannot be done becaus of the muslim factor.
    _______________________________________________________________________

    The seven years are in Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.
     
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