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AOC uses parody in tweets to point out GOP hypocrisy

Discussion in 'Current News & Events (Articles Required)' started by ArmenianJohn, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    I presented Romans 13. If Romans 13, which is God's Word, is not Christian in your opinion then I don't know your meaning of what is "Christian".
     
  2. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    Romans 13 is wholly Christian, on that we agree.

    However, Libertarians are *far* from deciding not to subject themselves unto government (at least Christian Libertarians). I pay my taxes ... because the government puts a gun to my head to do so (and Jesus said to). It doesn't mean I like or appreciate it and if there is supposedly a voice in government, there is no reason not to object.

    Or perhaps the government doesn't quite like being questioned ...
     
  3. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Well if we do agree on that then I don't understand why you're resistant to Romans 13. Are you trying to say that while you agree that "Romans 13 is wholly Christian" you also believe you are right to be resistant to it as you describe in the remainder of your post? That's worse than if you thought it was NOT "wholly Christian" and therefore resisted it.

    And here is why I wonder about whether we agree on Romans 13. You give as your primary reason that you pay your taxes "because the government puts a gun to my head to do so". Then, secondarily and parenthetically, you say "(and Jesus said to)". So I'm pretty clear on how you feel about paying taxes - you do it because you HAVE to. Not because God's Word says that there is a good reason for it, but begrudgingly under the belief that you are under extreme duress (that's what a gun to the head is) to do so (oh, and also because Jesus says to, although you say that as if you don't have to like it). That is one of my biggest problems as a Christian with libertarianism - it promotes an anti-Biblical view that paying the government taxes is something you do only "because the government puts a gun to my head to do so" and then as an after-thought that thing about Jesus says so also but that's just a command from Jesus with seemingly no good reason for it (despite that Romans 13 explains WHY we ought to do it and WHY it is God's command).

    That's like saying, "Well, I am a Christian so I don't murder people, because the government holds a gun to my head to force me to not murder people (oh and Jesus says not to)." Well, I don't murder people first and foremost because it is completely against Christianity and as a Christian I WANT to live what His Word teaches. Also, it is a direct commandment from God (which is of course in line with His other teachings in His Word which I WANT to follow). The fact that the government holds a gun to my head to keep me from murdering people would be a reason for me not to murder people if I weren't a Christian and/or didn't have the desire to follow Christianity, but since I DO WANT to follow Christ then the government's holding a gun to my head doesn't come into play in my situation.

    It's the same for me when it comes to paying my taxes. I do it because God teaches that it is right and just to pay the government for the services they provide which He has ordained as they are His Ministers unto His Justice. Along with that is that He commands us to do so, although I already WANT to do it because He has explained it to be righteous and just to pay those taxes for government services. The part of "a gun is held to my head" doesn't even come into play for me because I'm already desirous of following God's Word and Christ's Teachings.

    But, in your case, that's all reversed, and that is par for the course on what I hear from libertarians ALL THE TIME.

    So, thank you for helping prove my point about libertarianism - you are a living example of what I'm talking about and you openly and voluntarily declared it.

    Yes! Exactly!!! You don't like or appreciate it, despite Christ teaching it, despite God commanding it!!!

    How about other teachings of Christ and commandments of God? Do you like or appreciate them? Do you feel the same about murder or theft? You abide by the commands from God but mainly because the government has a gun to your head. You don't like or appreciate the commandments not to kill or steal? If there is supposedly a voice in government then do you have no reason not to object against the government holding a gun to your head to force you not to steal or murder?

    That's interesting how you view the government and taxation, as somehow inherently bad and something to object against, when God states explicitly in His Word that this is not the case. It's interesting that you feel this way about the sin of not subjecting yourself to the government and I have to think that for consistency's sake you probably feel the same about other things government holds a gun to your head for, like murder and stealing.

    Of course, in a libertarian society, murder and stealing would be easy enough because there would be no government services to guard agains these things. So perhaps those and other sins perfectly fit into this anti-government framework of the libertarian ideology.

    Or perhaps if you were following the Word of God you'd understand a couple things, those being that 1) God teaches that the government is OWED payment by us in the form of taxes/tribute/etc., and 2) that when following God's commandments it should be not simply because it is a commandment but because you should DESIRE to follow what He teaches is righteous and just (and the idea that "the gov'mint holds a gun to mah head" is inconsequential to those who follow the direct teachings of God).

    If you understood those things it wouldn't matter if the government loved or hated to be listened to. If you believed what God's Word teaches in Romans 13 then you'd believe it is righteous and just to pay the government for its services and that those services are provided by God's ordination of the government as His Ministers of authority over us. I mean, it's either that or God's Word is wrong - which is it? (For myself, I know God's Word is not wrong)

    So yeah I'm going to listen to God's Word rather than anti-Biblical foolishness such as Ayn Rand and the like teach.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  4. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    You have a very caustic manner about you as I already said. You make assumptions about people and ideals based on your extremely limited view ... you seemingly use a "since you believe A, you must also believe B" and then attack B with a vengeance as if the person you are speaking to is an adherent to it.

    You also seem to "dump", meaning you take a whole lot of things and throw it at another person (information overload) almost as if you want to disengage/demoralize the other person either through overload, sarcasm, dry wit, and misinformation.

    Therefore, I reject everything you are saying about libertarianism as false. When you decide you'd like to come to the adult table and have a respectful conversation about it, and when you decide to speak on one subject and one subject alone (since not all of us are as apparently wise and good on the memory as you are) - I'm happy to talk.

    Until then, I have no use for your conversational tone which apparently you think is your right as a representative of God.
     
  5. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree. I have not been "caustic". It looks to me like you're interpreting my responses as "caustic" because you don't have a rational response so you're deflecting. It's not the first time this has happened to me, particularly when talking with libertarians. It's par for the course with libertarians, in fact.

    I'd like to apologize for any incorrect assumptions I've made about you, but i don't see where I've done so. Please feel free to identify where I have done that and I'll apologize if indeed I have. I don't think you can point out where I've done so because I'm certain I haven't; still, if I am wrong, you can easily point it out, and I am willing to own it and apologize for it.

    I may have said a lot in words, but I was restating and reinforcing the same basic idea. I didn't "dump" a lot of information. The essence of what I said was that if your libertarian views were in line with God's Word then you wouldn't be talking about the government having a gun to your head to force you to do things that God's Word teaches since you'd want to do those things already.

    Feel fee to disprove me. So far, you're just attacking my character as a person and avoiding the discussion altogether.

    So you reject what I say because you perceive me as being "caustic" yet you can't substantiate that accusation. So, that's not a rational basis by which to reject what I'm saying. Noted.

    This is a discussion forum; if you are not prepared or willing to have a discussion that's fine but don't blame the other person for it. Hurling personal insults at me doesn't change the fact that you are dodging and deflecting in regards to the actual issue we were discussing, that being that libertarianism is not aligned with Christianity, particularly as seen in the example you gave of a libertarian attitude towards God's Word (i.e. it is secondary at best to being under extreme duress, and even then it is not so much "right" as it is a commandment that must be obeyed).

    As for speaking on one subject and one subject alone, I'd be happy to if you and the other libertarians weren't trying to derail this thread, which I myself started, about AOC's tweets. You and the other libertarians wanted to turn the attention to libertarianism. I acquiesced and now you are angry at me and blaming me for changing the subject - oh the irony!

    As for me being a "representative of God", well that only goes as far as His Word which I have simply presented. Feel free to point out where I have misinterpreted His Word and His Teachings. I know you aren't able to because I haven't misinterpreted anything, but again if I'm wrong then it should be easy for you to point it out. Yet, you don't point it out; it's because you can't. So you dodge and deflect, instead.

    I can understand if you feel stung, because the Bible says this about God's Word:
    "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

    I presented Romans 13 and it seems to have pierced through to the intent of your heart, based on your statement about how you pay taxes NOT because God teaches in His Word that it is Righteous to do so, but first and foremost because the government has a gun to your head, and secondarily because Jesus commands it (and you don't mention that it's just what's RIGHT according to God's Word, other than that it is a commandment). You make it out to be something you HAVE TO do. You indicated it's something you don't WANT to do, something you don't like or appreciate doing and that given any chance you will speak AGAINST it.

    So why are you made at me? What did I misinterpret either about your own claims or about what God's Word says??? You are at loggerheads with Romans 13 (despite asserting that it is "wholly Christian") and when I point that out you get angry at me and are yet unable to argue against me. Instead you dodge and deflect by assaulting my character and then announcing that you are now going to stop talking about it.

    Fine, then. Stop talking about it, no problem. But I'm not fooled as to why and I doubt anyone else is (except perhaps your libertarian allies in here).
     
  6. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    Again, you have simply illustrated my previous assertion I made about you.

    I don't stop talking to you because I can't defend libertarianism, I stopped talking to you for the reasons I've listed to you. If you think that is because I can't argue the point, I'm happy to let you and your assumptions win simply because I'm not willing to talk to a lion in a cage.
     
  7. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    @ArmenianJohn

    I will try some semblance of discussion with you, but if you are going to continue to whine that "well, take it up with God not with me because let's face it I'm right because God says so" speech - I highly doubt this is going to be a very productive discussion.

    >>Well if we do agree on that then I don't understand why you're resistant to Romans 13. >>

    Why are you conflating disagreement with the government as 'resistance'. Resistance means civil disobedience ... which is something we did in the 1700s and what this country is based on. Was George Washington and the rest wrong in the revolution? It's okay if you say they are - a lot of people will say they were wrong about it. But if, as you seemed to surmise from past posts, that taxation brings benefits to people - and people are not being benefited from taxes - would it have been wrong for the people to rebel in the 1770s and beyond?

    >>Are you trying to say that while you agree that "Romans 13 is wholly Christian" you also believe you are right to be resistant to it as you describe in the remainder of your post? That's worse than if you thought it was NOT "wholly Christian" and therefore resisted it.>>

    I'm saying that it's okay to not like paying taxes, but doing it anyway. What reasons would I have to not like paying taxes? Oh, I don't know. The fact that there is no such thing as property rights when the government takes your land away after you've paid for it because you didn't pay for property taxes? The fact that the government uses some of the money to allow women to get abortions or teach our kids in public schools the glories of disobeying God's commands for sex. Or the fact that the government doesn't want home school to be a viable choice. Or the fact that soon, the new Biden administration will insist that good Christian schools will not be allowed to have Title 9 benefits of accreditation if they do not deliberately hire LGBTQ staff even if it goes against their doctrinal beliefs. All of this being tax payer funded in one way, shape or form.

    If you don't pay taxes, do they let you go? No, you go to jail. Literally, put a gun to your head. So no, I'm sorry if you think I should gladly pay taxes to continue killing babies, taking away school choice, or fostering some sort of populist nationalism in America. If I am a tax payer, I have every right to *respectfully* voice my concerns to where my money goes and don't really care whether you think so or not.

    I do reject your claims that paying taxes is on equal par to the 10 commandments, especially since paying taxes sometimes causes the 10 commandments to be broken.

    <<That's like saying, "Well, I am a Christian so I don't murder people, because the government holds a gun to my head to force me to not murder people (oh and Jesus says not to)." Well, I don't murder people first and foremost because it is completely>>

    Again, what happens when the taxes are going toward murdering the unborn?

    <<It's the same for me when it comes to paying my taxes. I do it because God teaches that it is right and just to pay the government for the services they provide which He has ordained as they are His Ministers unto His Justice. Along with that is that He commands us to do so, although I already WANT to do it because He has explained it to>>

    Good for you; I'm not there, bro, because I'm not convinced on the good intentions of government that decides ... 'Hey, we want to help you.'

    >>But, in your case, that's all reversed, and that is par for the course on what I hear from libertarians ALL THE TIME.>>

    So a pig oinks and a dog barks. So? Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

    <<How about other teachings of Christ and commandments of God? Do you like or appreciate them? Do you feel the same about murder or theft? You abide by the >>

    Actually no, I don't feel the same about the 10 commandments or theft ... another reason why I object to taxes ...

    >>That's interesting how you view the government and taxation, as somehow inherently bad and something to object against, when God states explicitly in His Word that this is not the case. >>

    Oh please, stop patronizing me. As long as there is tyranny, there is proof that absolute power corrupts absolutely. If you want Bible verses for that, start with Pharaoh and work your way up to Herod the Great and end with Emperor Deity Caesar. In fact if you want, I could argue that Christians literally committed civil disobedience every time they refused to worship Emperor Nero, Domitian, and the others.

    >>It's interesting that you feel this way about the sin of not subjecting yourself to the government and I have to think that for consistency's sake you probably feel the same>>

    Again, you continue to falsely conflate criticism of large government for not subjecting oneself to the government. Anyone anywhere can criticize the government all they want: Jesus never commanded blind allegiance to anyone, not even Himself. I don't say that lightly, our Lord gives much light to everyone and those devoted to Him know why.

    >>Of course, in a libertarian society, murder and stealing would be easy enough because there would be no government services to guard agains these things. So perhaps those and other sins perfectly fit into this anti-government framework of the libertarian ideology.>>

    False. As you've been told before, Libertarians are not monolithic. All Libertarians believe in government (contrary to what you've been told) - but the method of governing is changed. For Minarchist, we believe in much smaller government with free enterprise capitalism and non aggression principal being the primary values in society. Some, like myself, also hold to originality of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence and Bill of Right along with a Christian heritage. I'm not going to force the Christian heritage thing down people's throats, though.

    Let me say that I know enough from what you have written to know: #1) you either deliberately misrepresented or did not understand what other libertarians told you or #2) you simply did not talk to libertarians. I truly do not believe you have a grasp of what libertarians are ... my son and I have had very long talks into the night these past years about it because it has many different ideas outside the conventional democrat or republican talking points. It's not something you can grasp at once, at least in my opinion. For me, I realized over the years that I had libertarian views but did not articulate or identify with the movement. Whether that idea is a bad thing or a good thing in your opinion, I could care less.

    >>Or perhaps if you were following the Word of God you'd understand a couple things, those being that 1) God teaches that the government is OWED payment by us in the form of taxes/tribute/etc., and 2) that when following God's commandments it should be not simply because it is a commandment but because you should DESIRE to follow what He teaches is righteous and just (and the idea that "the gov'mint holds a gun to mah head" is inconsequential to those who follow the direct teachings of God).>>

    More conflation; it appears to me in your world system, no citizen anywhere would ever question the authority. We would just blindly follow our leaders into Communism ... if that's what you want, God bless you. But I don't want that for myself or my family. I don't owe the government anything *more* than what Jesus asked me to do for it. People don't have to 'like' obeying unjust governments, I'm not sure where in the Scriptures you ever got that idea.

    >>If you understood those things it wouldn't matter if the government loved or hated to be listened to. If you believed what God's Word teaches in Romans 13 then you'd believe it is righteous and just to pay the government for its services and that those>>

    Ahh yes, more 'if you thought about the idea the way I think about it which of course is the way that God thinks about it, you foolish imbecile, we wouldn't be having this discussion' diatribe. It gets tiring quick.

    I really don't care if you want to respond to this message or not, the only reason why I wrote it is I went against my better judgment of simply ignoring you so at least someone out there (not you) would actually understand that Libertarians do not think, act, or believe the way you have caricatured them to be. One day I'll learn not to talk to trolls.

    And by the way, I could care less if you think I'm hijacking the thread for Libertarianism. In a truly Libertarian society, I would die for you to hold to all of your beliefs including your terrible opinion of people like me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  8. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Thanks for signaling to me and everyone that you want this discussion to exclude God and His Word. In the future you can just speak your opinion without disclaimers. This is a discussion forum - discuss, or don't.

    I'm not. I said "resistance" to God's Word, specifically Romans 13.

    That's not what I said. If I meant "civil disobedience" I would have said so. I didn't, though: I said "resistance" in regards to your resistance to Romans 13.

    No, that was revolution, not just "civil disobedience". Do you really not understand the difference?

    Yes, I know it's OK for me to say they are wrong, especially since I use God's Word for the standard by which to measure the act of rebellion. God's Word says that rebellions is as the sin of witchcraft. Not surprising, either, when you consider that George Washington and other founding fathers of America were witches, essentially.

    Does God's Word say "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft except when you don't feel you are getting benefit of taxes you pay"??? Please show me where that is in God's Word. Until you do, I'll believe what I see written in His Word. (PS - Ayn Rand is not scripture.)

    Yes, and I'm saying that God's Word is clear that it is right to pay the government for their services by way of taxation and therefore we should be cheerful about doing what God tells us is right. So you and I have different ideas on this; you believe it's OK to grumble and dislike something God commands but to do it simply because it is commanded. I'm saying that as a Christian if God commands me to do something because He says it is what's right by His Standards then I will seek to understand and be happy about doing it rather than begrudgingly doing it "anyway".

    I gave the examples of murder and theft. God commands us to not do those things. I can say what you're saying about taxation, essentially "Well, I don't like it, but I'll obey just because God commanded it, but if not for His commandment I would kill people and steal all the time." Or I could say, "Well, God commands it so I HAVE to obey, but if the government ever gave me a voice I would object against the laws prohibiting killing and theft."

    But for me, when it comes to killing and theft, I listen to God and trust Him that it is RIGHT to not kill or steal. It never gets to a point of "Well, I'll obey because I HAVE to but I don't LIKE It and if I can have a say in changing laws about it I WILL!!!" I don't know how you justify that approach as a Christian, because I certainly don't see how it's in line with God's Word.

    Oh sure, I can think of reasons to like all sorts of sin, but they're not Biblical.

    Well, here you conveniently ignore the entire basis of "property rights" being a construct of the government under which you live. Nobody has absolute rule over a piece of land no matter how big or small except for the highest governmental ruling body. "Property rights" only exist because the government exists. Without a government to uphold the concept of "property rights" for you and others you would not have them. You could easily be a serf or at best a vassal. So you want "property rights" to magically exist without a government to pay for the upholding of that concept and rule? What fantasyland does that happen in???

    So what? God tells us that this is no excuse for disliking His system of earthly government being a minister ordained by Him to mete out His Rule and Justice. When Romans 13 was written, the Roman Empire at that time was far more wicked in their spending of their tax revenue than the US government has ever been. They used those taxes to openly kill Christians for entertainment in the Roman Coliseum. Can you show me the verse in Romans 13 that says that disliking some of the government's expenditures is a reason to dislike what God commands about paying taxes? All I could find was this verse:
    Romans 13
    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    I hope you don't get angry and upset again and accuse me of being "God's representative" or anything - that's why I'm providing you God's own Word and asking you if I've missed something there about vetting every government expenditure and basing your desire to pay taxes on that. It looks to me like that's not in there at all. Sounds more like something you've made up for your own subjective, self-made concept of "right and wrong" (which is what libertarians do all the time).


    This is simply not true at all. I know many people who have homeschooled their kids with no problems. It's a foolish waste of the resources God has given them, in my opinion, so they're not good stewards, but otherwise they've had no problems.

    Right, sure. I didn't realize I was speaking to a soothsayer who can predict the future! LOL


    That's right, and it's their right to do so, according to God's Word. Why do you have a problem with God's Word on this issue?

    It's not what I think; it's what God's Word says. See above, I posted the Scripture for you. Feel free to show me how that Scripture is incorrect.

    Yes, you do. And so do I. Nothing wrong with that. But that's not what we are arguing about. I'm saying that God's Word says it is RIGHT to pay the government taxes for the job they do and therefore we should gladly do whatever God says is RIGHT. I'm also pointing out that God says this regardless of how the government spends those taxes, which is made clear by the fact that the Apostle taught this under the government of an evil Caesar who directly killed Christians for fun. Somehow you seem to want to ignore all of this. You are instead whining "they hold a gun to my head! tyranny! tyranny! Gun to my head!!! Tyranny!!!!"

    No, not tyranny. No, not a gun to your head. The histrionics of libetarians' claims are beyond ridiculous. You don't know tyranny. If you've lived in the USA all your life then you don't know what living under tyranny is. You make a mockery of the concept; you make a mockery of Christians who actually live under real tyranny. It's pathetic and self-serving and very transparent, all the hyper-drama of "TYRANNY! TYRANNY!!! I AM PERSECUTED!!!" that I always hear from right-wing extremists in this country. Calm down, you're not under tyranny.

    God's Word says:
    Romans 13
    1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    Feel free to continue to resist the ordinance of God, but just note what God's Word tells you, which is that those who do so shall receive to themselves damnation.

    Not my claims. If you continue to read Romans 13 it goes on to bring up the 10 commandments upon the heels of this commandment and explanation of subjection to government and taxation:
    Romans 13
    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
     
  9. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    What the Apostle who wrote Romans 13 say in that chapter to the people of that time who were paying taxes that went to the killing of their brethren, and THEMSELVES??? What did St. Paul do when jailed for evangelizing, did he try to escape when an earthquake made it possible for him to?

    Is the message you're getting from God's Word that of "Do good things but never sacrifice one iota of material things, for thou shalt keep all thine moneys that art thine, and thou shalt not tolerate unfair redistribution of thine wealth and money"??? If so, can you show me that verse or the chapters that back that? What I see is a Bible that tells me not to worry that much about money or taxation but rather to worry about serving God and He will ensure that I am cared for by Him. I also see where a lot of things I am commanded to do are involve sacrifice, and aren't "fair" to me. Taxes and loving my neighbor as myself are examples of that. Do you view loving your neighbor as yourself as never having to make sacrifices? Or that you get to pick and choose the sacrifices that you want rather than what God says to sacrifice (such as taxes)??? That's fine for you to have your own choice but if you want to convince me that it's Christian to think that way then just provide Scripture to back it up.


    Again, show me in the Bible where your being "convinced on the good intentions of government that decides ... 'Hey, we want to help you.'" Show me that and I'll gladly concede that you are right. Problem is that I'm seeing God's Word say the opposite by omitting any such exceptions.

    Perhaps if you read and obey God's Word on this topic you will then be there, bro.

    No, that it goes directly against God's Word which I believe as a Christian is what makes it wrong.

    So you feel some commandments are more correct and other ones (like pay your taxes) are just not correct but you HAVE to obey them so you do? What other commandments do you obey even though you think they are dead wrong? Give me another example of such a commandment other than paying taxes... This I gotta hear.

    LOL, "tyranny"!!!! There is no tyranny in the US. That's just drama and histrionics, to say that Americans are under "tyranny". Can you name me a country that is greater than America and doesn't have the "tyranny" you see in America? Or do you believe that every nation in the world is under "tyranny"?? LOL

    Nothing about Pharaoh or Herod or Caesar goes against what I have quoted from Romans 13. Not sure what you're trying to say here, if anything you're proving my point for me. Hebrews and Christians remained subject to those ruling powers. The only case where we are not to subject is if doing so causes us to directly disobey God. Otherwise, God's people have always been subject to rulers, even the most tyrannical and abusive ones, and paid tribute/taxes to them regardless of how evil they were.

    Argue away, what's stopping you? Just support your arguments with factual, scriptural references.

    No, you're actuall the one who is conflating "criticism" with resistance. You have every right to be critical of how the government spends and to use whatever voice the government gives you to influence how they spend. But you go further; you are saying that you shouldn't have a "gun held to your head" or be coerced to pay taxes and that you would prefer to pay no taxes. That latter part is where you go way too far and go against what God teaches us.

    A lot of meaningless words that amount to the same thing as every libertarian out there, which is basically you want a government that does your bidding and doesn't charge you for it. Which is why you're against taxes. And I'm not asking you "to force the Christian heritage thing down people's throats" so I have no idea why you even bring that up. Perhaps that's your way of saying you're not going to consider Christianity when you formulate your own beliefs about taxes and government in spite of being a Christian? Because the rest of what you say is in line with that.

    I don't care what you think you know about me. I know that two common refrains I hear from every professing libertarian are that they don't want to pay taxes and that it's because they consider it "tyranny" and "holding a gun to my head" to do so. And they all use those exact same words (presumably because it's from their libertarian talking heads and other leaders like Ayn Rand who teach them these things).

    And that's all I need to know in order to know that they are wrong.

    And again, it's you who is conflating. You are conflating the idea of subjecting yourself to government and taxation with meaning you can have absolutely no opinion or criticism of how the government spends their money. You can. But underneath any criticism you should realize that paying taxes is RIGHT and you ought to be thankful to the Lord that He gives you a government that serves you (even if it is imperfectly) because you believe His Word when He tells you that they are His Ministers, ordained by Him unto His Justice. You're conflating those two things and then accusing me of doing so.

    Ahh yes, more "even though you're providing a reference directly from Scripture I'm going to pretend you didn't so I can accuse you of telling me your personal opinion so I can then continue to provide my own personal opinion without using scripture at all." It gets tiring quick.

    Of course you don't really care if I don't respond because you know that your viewpoint on this is not backed by Scripture whereas mine is (since I've been providing the Scripture throughout these posts).

    As for all the people out there, they all fall into two camps: Libertarians who believe that they are persecuted victims of tyranny and a gun to their head to pay taxes from their own "mine money!", and the rest of us who know that libertarianism is irrational nonsense.

    Anyway, anyone out there (not you) can read this and see at least what God's Word says about government and taxation. Even non-Christians can read this and see what the Christian view on government and taxation is because I have provided the Scripture directly from God's Word, so they don't have to take my word for it or consider what you have to say either. It's very clear in God's Word.

    And by the way, I could care less if you think that you would die for me to hold all of my beliefs because that is not at all an ideal that belongs to the libertarians. I have zero respect for libertarianism entirely because as a Christian it contradicts many of my most basic Christian beliefs.
     
  10. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    I rest my case. Let those who read these exchanges make up their own mind. I don't mind if anyone thinks I am wrong, I have been wrong about a lot of things. I have no further desire to debate the subject. Thank you for the opportunity of allowing us to share.
     
  11. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Yes, let everyone see clearly what Romans 13 says and that libertarians such as you have disdain for paying the government what is owed to them by us for their services to us which are ordained by God Himself so that they serve as Ministers of His Justice unto us.

    To get back to the topic of the thread, AOC is dead on in her calling out the GOP hypocrisy; the libertarian hypocrisy that you helped illustrate just helps to back the OP of this thread.

    Here is Romans 13 for the edification of all reading this so that it can be contrasted against the libertarian view that taxation is "tyranny" and other such nonsense:
    1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.


    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

    12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

    13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

    14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
     
  12. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    Again, I rest my case. Neither the rhetoric of myself or anyone else actually bolsters any ideas or trying to get in the last word.

    I implore readers to read the information for themselves, pray over it, ignore all the snarkiness that has been exchanged, and the ideas of the many fine people in this thread - and *make up your own mind*. Don't let me or anyone else make you feel a certain way about anyone else. Blessings.
     
  13. Lybrah

    Lybrah Active Member

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    I definitely need you all to pray for me because this woman seriously enrages me. She is so stupid and immature and I’m angry she’s still in office. I hate her! I know what it says about that stuff in the Bible but it’s incredibly difficult. I’d like nothing more than to see her demise. And no, I’m not threatened by a “strong intelligent woman of color” because I actually think she is obnoxious and annoying. I only see her as a threat to my country since she’s a socialist.
     
  14. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    I love her, I think she's one of the best in Congress. I don't know what there is to hate about her. Her reaction to the GOP tweets in the OP are a perfect example of what I think is so great about her - she tells it like it is and exposes the hypocrisy.
     
  15. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Libertarianism and the "tyranny/holding-a-gun-to-my-head" propaganda doesn't hold up against the Word of God, which is quick and powerful and pierces asunder to the intent of the heart. That's what has been laid out for all to see in your posts and my respoinses to them.
     
  16. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

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    Consider the possibility that the voices you’re listening to are dishonest and/or ignorant and she’s not the danger they’re telling you she is.
     
  17. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Blessed more than I deserve

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    In addition, all have seen your unChrist like attitude.
     
  18. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Again, you name-call and attack me as a person - and with nothing to back it up. Feel free to show where I have exhibited an "unChrist like attitude". (We know you can't...)

    Then feel free to read up on forum rules. (We know you can...)
     
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