@ArmenianJohn
I will try some semblance of discussion with you, but if you are going to continue to whine that "well, take it up with God not with me because let's face it I'm right because God says so" speech - I highly doubt this is going to be a very productive discussion.
>>Well if we do agree on that then I don't understand why you're resistant to
Romans 13. >>
Why are you conflating disagreement with the government as 'resistance'. Resistance means civil disobedience ... which is something we did in the 1700s and what this country is based on. Was George Washington and the rest wrong in the revolution? It's okay if you say they are - a lot of people will say they were wrong about it. But if, as you seemed to surmise from past posts, that taxation brings benefits to people - and people are not being benefited from taxes - would it have been wrong for the people to rebel in the 1770s and beyond?
>>Are you trying to say that while you agree that "
Romans 13 is wholly Christian" you also believe you are right to be resistant to it as you describe in the remainder of your post? That's worse than if you thought it was NOT "wholly Christian" and therefore resisted it.>>
I'm saying that it's okay to not like paying taxes, but doing it anyway. What reasons would I have to not like paying taxes? Oh, I don't know. The fact that there is no such thing as property rights when the government takes your land away after you've paid for it because you didn't pay for property taxes? The fact that the government uses some of the money to allow women to get abortions or teach our kids in public schools the glories of disobeying God's commands for sex. Or the fact that the government doesn't want home school to be a viable choice. Or the fact that soon, the new Biden administration will insist that good Christian schools will not be allowed to have Title 9 benefits of accreditation if they do not deliberately hire LGBTQ staff even if it goes against their doctrinal beliefs. All of this being tax payer funded in one way, shape or form.
If you don't pay taxes, do they let you go? No, you go to jail. Literally, put a gun to your head. So no, I'm sorry if you think I should gladly pay taxes to continue killing babies, taking away school choice, or fostering some sort of populist nationalism in America. If I am a tax payer, I have every right to *respectfully* voice my concerns to where my money goes and don't really care whether you think so or not.
I do reject your claims that paying taxes is on equal par to the 10 commandments, especially since paying taxes sometimes causes the 10 commandments to be broken.
<<That's like saying, "Well, I am a Christian so I don't murder people, because the government holds a gun to my head to force me to not murder people (oh and Jesus says not to)." Well, I don't murder people first and foremost because it is completely>>
Again, what happens when the taxes are going toward murdering the unborn?
<<It's the same for me when it comes to paying my taxes. I do it because God teaches that it is right and just to pay the government for the services they provide which He has ordained as they are His Ministers unto His Justice. Along with that is that He commands us to do so, although I already WANT to do it because He has explained it to>>
Good for you; I'm not there, bro, because I'm not convinced on the good intentions of government that decides ... 'Hey, we want to help you.'
>>But, in your case, that's all reversed, and that is par for the course on what I hear from libertarians ALL THE TIME.>>
So a pig oinks and a dog barks. So? Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
<<How about other teachings of Christ and commandments of God? Do you like or appreciate them? Do you feel the same about murder or theft? You abide by the >>
Actually no, I don't feel the same about the 10 commandments or theft ... another reason why I object to taxes ...
>>That's interesting how you view the government and taxation, as somehow inherently bad and something to object against, when God states explicitly in His Word that this is not the case. >>
Oh please, stop patronizing me. As long as there is tyranny, there is proof that absolute power corrupts absolutely. If you want Bible verses for that, start with Pharaoh and work your way up to Herod the Great and end with Emperor Deity Caesar. In fact if you want, I could argue that Christians literally committed civil disobedience every time they refused to worship Emperor Nero, Domitian, and the others.
>>It's interesting that you feel this way about the sin of not subjecting yourself to the government and I have to think that for consistency's sake you probably feel the same>>
Again, you continue to falsely conflate criticism of large government for not subjecting oneself to the government. Anyone anywhere can criticize the government all they want: Jesus never commanded blind allegiance to anyone, not even Himself. I don't say that lightly, our Lord gives much light to everyone and those devoted to Him know why.
>>Of course, in a libertarian society, murder and stealing would be easy enough because there would be no government services to guard agains these things. So perhaps those and other sins perfectly fit into this anti-government framework of the libertarian ideology.>>
False. As you've been told before, Libertarians are not monolithic. All Libertarians believe in government (contrary to what you've been told) - but the method of governing is changed. For Minarchist, we believe in much smaller government with free enterprise capitalism and non aggression principal being the primary values in society. Some, like myself, also hold to originality of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence and Bill of Right along with a Christian heritage. I'm not going to force the Christian heritage thing down people's throats, though.
Let me say that I know enough from what you have written to know: #1) you either deliberately misrepresented or did not understand what other libertarians told you or #2) you simply did not talk to libertarians. I truly do not believe you have a grasp of what libertarians are ... my son and I have had very long talks into the night these past years about it because it has many different ideas outside the conventional democrat or republican talking points. It's not something you can grasp at once, at least in my opinion. For me, I realized over the years that I had libertarian views but did not articulate or identify with the movement. Whether that idea is a bad thing or a good thing in your opinion, I could care less.
>>Or perhaps if you were following the Word of God you'd understand a couple things, those being that 1) God teaches that the government is OWED payment by us in the form of taxes/tribute/etc., and 2) that when following God's commandments it should be not simply because it is a commandment but because you should DESIRE to follow what He teaches is righteous and just (and the idea that "the gov'mint holds a gun to mah head" is inconsequential to those who follow the direct teachings of God).>>
More conflation; it appears to me in your world system, no citizen anywhere would ever question the authority. We would just blindly follow our leaders into Communism ... if that's what you want, God bless you. But I don't want that for myself or my family. I don't owe the government anything *more* than what Jesus asked me to do for it. People don't have to 'like' obeying unjust governments, I'm not sure where in the Scriptures you ever got that idea.
>>If you understood those things it wouldn't matter if the government loved or hated to be listened to. If you believed what God's Word teaches in
Romans 13 then you'd believe it is righteous and just to pay the government for its services and that those>>
Ahh yes, more 'if you thought about the idea the way I think about it which of course is the way that God thinks about it, you foolish imbecile, we wouldn't be having this discussion' diatribe. It gets tiring quick.
I really don't care if you want to respond to this message or not, the only reason why I wrote it is I went against my better judgment of simply ignoring you so at least someone out there (not you) would actually understand that Libertarians do not think, act, or believe the way you have caricatured them to be. One day I'll learn not to talk to trolls.
And by the way, I could care less if you think I'm hijacking the thread for Libertarianism. In a truly Libertarian society, I would die for you to hold to all of your beliefs including your terrible opinion of people like me.