Anytime Rapture View versus the rest.

Douggg · Oct 8, 2018

keras said:
1 Thessalonians 5:3 While they are saying; 'all is peaceful, all secure', destruction is upon them, sudden as the pangs that come on a woman in childbirth and there will be no escape. R. E. Bible

I see 'they' as all the ungodly peoples.
'peaceful and secure' as after a settlement between the State of Israel and the Palestinians.
'sudden destruction', the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath, that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +

In 1Thessalonians5, the REB went with escape. But did not in Luke 21:36.

It is the same basic greek word in 1Thesslaonians 5:3 as is in Luke21:34-36. But the REB decided to go with their theology in Luke 21:36. Which is why I don't like the REB.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon.
STRONGS NT 1628: ἐκφεύγω

b. to escape: 1 Thessalonians 5:3; Hebrews 2:3; τί, Luke 21:36; Romans 2:3; τινα, Hebrews 12:25 L T Tr WH; (τάς χεῖρας τίνος, 2 Corinthians 11:33. Cf. Winers Grammar, § 52, 4, 4; Buttmann, 146f (128f)).

Seville90210 · Oct 8, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
(See Hebrews 12:22-24)

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(This is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

King James Bible
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It saids escape and stand before the Son of Man. Where else can you escape if standing before Jesus?

It also saids pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape. Why would anyone pray they be worthy to go through the tribulation if that's the destination? When was the last time you prayed to go into the flaming fires?

It's ok, you don't have to reply, I already know your answer.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

keras · Oct 8, 2018

Douggg said:
In 1Thessalonians5, the REB went with escape. But did not in Luke 21:36.

It is the same basic greek word in 1Thesslaonians 5:3 as is in Luke21:34-36. But the REB decided to go with their theology in Luke 21:36. Which is why I don't like the REB.

You don't like the accurate translation and logical rendering of the REB, because it conflicts with your ideas of what you want the Lord to do.
There is no escape for anyone in both scriptures, we will all experience the event referred to; the Lord's Day of wrath.
We who study the prophesies, should know all about it; over 100 prophesies vividly describe what the Lord will use and its dramatic effects.

Douggg · Oct 8, 2018

keras said:
You don't like the accurate translation and logical rendering of the REB, because it conflicts with your ideas of what you want the Lord to do.
There is no escape for anyone in both scriptures, we will all experience the event referred to; the Lord's Day of wrath.
We who study the prophesies, should know all about it; over 100 prophesies vividly describe what the Lord will use and its dramatic effects.

As a rule, anytime you hear a preacher start off a sermon with "in the greek" - you know you got troubles.

Choose Wisely · Oct 8, 2018

keras said:
There is no escape for anyone in both scriptures, we will all experience the event referred to; the Lord's Day of wrath.

That's right, speak that right into your life. You should do a study on the tongue

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2018

Douggg said:
Anytime Rapture View is the rapture view I hold. The term was adapted by me ,taken from Luke 21:34-36, which contains the word "anytime".

The Anytime Rapture View is that the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians15-18 takes place anytime between now (as you are reading this) and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The rapture, therefore, could be pre-70th week. Or it may be after the 70th week begins. But it is not after Antichrist makes his move - somewhere in the middle part of the 7 years. We can't fix an exact day for his move.

The Anytime Rapture View fits -
1. Luke 21:34-46, the escape from the Day of the Lord beginning like a thief in the night.
2. At a time we think not.
3. The promise to the church of Philadelphia, to be kept from the world-wide time of testing.
4. Not appointed to wrath; neither the wrath of God, nor the wrath of Satan during the time, times, half time.
5. allows for the possibility for the church to be here during the first part of the 7 years, when there will be a falling away from Christianity, as the Antichrist (prior to his revealing to be the man of sin act) will be believed by the Jews and the world to be messiah. Yet, them of the church of Philadelphia will not deny Jesus's name.

______________________________________________________________________

The rest:

Pre-trib - is actually a misnomer for pre-70th week. Which it may happen that way, but it is not for certain. Because, the first half of the 7 years, most of it, the world will be saying peace and safety - a indicator of the times and seasons, for the rapture to take place. It will not be tribulation during that "perceived" messianic age.

The pre-trib rapture mandates that the rapture take place before the confirming of the covenant because in pre-trib thinking that is when the Antichrist is revealed. But that is a misreading of 2Thessalonians2:4. It is not revealing the person as the Antichrist - but the man of sin, which actually ends his time as the Antichrist... the King of Israel, illegitimate....and ends the peace and safety illusion.

Still, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Pre-wrath - pre-wrath brackets the time rapture takes place. To be before the wrath of God (as defined by prewathers) at the end of the great tribulation, when the sun and moon grow dark. But after the church has entered the great tribulation. Which is the major flaw of the pre-wrath view.

That particular views fails on that peace and safety will not be the thinking after the great tribulation begins. The seven years begin with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, made the King of Israel, illegitimate. Peace and safety will be the thinking during that time, the early years of the 70th week.

But once he makes his move to claim to have achieved God-hood, that triggers the Day of the Lord beginning. End of peace and safety.

And in the second seal, peace is taken from the earth. So the world is not saying peace and safety during the great tribulation as proponents to the Pre-wrath view, like Robert Van Kampen, claim. You Tube video - The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 1 of 3 Robert Van Kampen

Post-Trib - mandates that the church go through the great tribulation, to be raptured at Jesus's Return.

This view is untenable because it exposes the church to the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. And fails on the Luke 21:34-36 escape of that time.

Also them in Jerusalem, Jews, at the end of the great tribulation will have become Christians - are not raptured, but escape through a valley created by Jesus when he splits the Mt. of Olives in half.

Douggg:

I agree with you a little bit.
Jesus says when He returns, will He find faith on the Earth?
But we should not say that the Lord is delaying His coming, either. For there are warnings against that.
So the anytime Rapture view is the correct view (for the most part) to have because it means you are always looking for Him.

However, in my studies on this: I believe currently that there may be two Raptures (One being a Pre-Trib Rapture, and the second one being a Pre-Wrath Rapture).

In the Pre-Trib rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the Midpoint of the Tribulation (Before Wrath is poured out), He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you today.

mark kennedy · Oct 8, 2018

Douggg said:
Anytime Rapture View is the rapture view I hold. The term was adapted by me ,taken from Luke 21:34-36, which contains the word "anytime".

The Anytime Rapture View is that the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians15-18 takes place anytime between now (as you are reading this) and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The rapture, therefore, could be pre-70th week. Or it may be after the 70th week begins. But it is not after Antichrist makes his move - somewhere in the middle part of the 7 years. We can't fix an exact day for his move.

The Anytime Rapture View fits -
1. Luke 21:34-46, the escape from the Day of the Lord beginning like a thief in the night.
2. At a time we think not.
3. The promise to the church of Philadelphia, to be kept from the world-wide time of testing.
4. Not appointed to wrath; neither the wrath of God, nor the wrath of Satan during the time, times, half time.
5. allows for the possibility for the church to be here during the first part of the 7 years, when there will be a falling away from Christianity, as the Antichrist (prior to his revealing to be the man of sin act) will be believed by the Jews and the world to be messiah. Yet, them of the church of Philadelphia will not deny Jesus's name.

______________________________________________________________________

The rest:

Pre-trib - is actually a misnomer for pre-70th week. Which it may happen that way, but it is not for certain. Because, the first half of the 7 years, most of it, the world will be saying peace and safety - a indicator of the times and seasons, for the rapture to take place. It will not be tribulation during that "perceived" messianic age.

The pre-trib rapture mandates that the rapture take place before the confirming of the covenant because in pre-trib thinking that is when the Antichrist is revealed. But that is a misreading of 2Thessalonians2:4. It is not revealing the person as the Antichrist - but the man of sin, which actually ends his time as the Antichrist... the King of Israel, illegitimate....and ends the peace and safety illusion.

Still, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Pre-wrath - pre-wrath brackets the time rapture takes place. To be before the wrath of God (as defined by prewathers) at the end of the great tribulation, when the sun and moon grow dark. But after the church has entered the great tribulation. Which is the major flaw of the pre-wrath view.

That particular views fails on that peace and safety will not be the thinking after the great tribulation begins. The seven years begin with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, made the King of Israel, illegitimate. Peace and safety will be the thinking during that time, the early years of the 70th week.

But once he makes his move to claim to have achieved God-hood, that triggers the Day of the Lord beginning. End of peace and safety.

And in the second seal, peace is taken from the earth. So the world is not saying peace and safety during the great tribulation as proponents to the Pre-wrath view, like Robert Van Kampen, claim. You Tube video - The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 1 of 3 Robert Van Kampen

Post-Trib - mandates that the church go through the great tribulation, to be raptured at Jesus's Return.

This view is untenable because it exposes the church to the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. And fails on the Luke 21:34-36 escape of that time.

Also them in Jerusalem, Jews, at the end of the great tribulation will have become Christians - are not raptured, but escape through a valley created by Jesus when he splits the Mt. of Olives in half.

The pretribulation never made any sense to me. The question that occurs to me is who are the martyrs beneath the altar? Whats more Israel does'nt repent until the half way about following the abomination that causes desolation. It seems rather odd the God would rapture the church at the beginning of the tribulation and then the tribulation saints, including Israel. I do tend to like the prewrath scenerio, the rapture comes before the vials of wrath are poured out and Jesus returns at the battle of Amageddon. I'm not adverse to a pretribulation rapture, I just don't think it's the result of a sound exposition.

Douggg · Oct 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So the anytime Rapture view is the correct view (for the most part) to have because it means you are always looking for Him.

Jason, that was one of the more pleasant responses Ive gotten. Which you pinpointed the essence of it.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2018

Douggg said:
Jason, that was one of the more pleasant responses Ive gotten. Which you pinpointed the essence of it.

Thank you; It was my pleasure. I see the Rapture or Raptures as a way of correction for believers, too. Those believers who miss out on the Rapture are gonna ask themselves why they missed out on it. No doubt it was either:

(a) A lack of faith in His Word that talks about the Rapture.
(b) A lack of faith in His Word that talks about living fruitful or holy as a part of the faith (and telling others the necessity of that) instead of the Greasy Grace Gospel that says we can sin and still be saved on some level by the fact that we have a belief alone on Jesus (with no necessity of obedience to the faith as a part of continuing to be right with God).

Their missing out on the Rapture will be one way of them to see the error of their ways and then repent of their unbelief in what God's Word said.

Blade · Oct 8, 2018

Lets not take what we read then share our view and turn that in to scripture. Lets not ADD words to what is written and call it truth. Speculation...

He Christ went back to make us a home. Fact. He is coming back to get us..fact. Our brother Pauls 1st letter was to some that thought they missed Christ. At no point were they ever told how wrong they were to be expecting Christ..I cant find it. He told them..nope.. He will come in the clouds air and the dead will rise ..dont worry they won't go before us. We then will be changed and all go up to meet Christ in the air where we will be with Him for ever.

Now some say WHEN for FACT this will happen. Now for me..if I did that I would be lying. Well I cant find PRE TRIB..or MID TRIB or POST TRIB in the whole bible. No one on this planet can give a verse..its not written. So a personal view of what you personally believe does not become truth. I can share verse and why I THINK BLEIVE they point to...yet I will be the 1st to say.. its what I PERSONALLY believe.

And this is not about what I believe. His wrath is coming on not spots on the earth but the whole earth. So since I know my Father has never in MY life made me think say do anything. That when He does come..if I do not believe I will not go. See its written..it will happen. Dead will rise...we will be changed and go up with them to meet Christ in the air to then as it says be with Him forever. You just have SOME that tell you something that is NOT written as to WHEN it will happen. Not one can back that up with His word or RAPTURE would never be talked about lol

So me? I take HIM not what any man says or what I say.. I take HIM at His word. I me..live as if HE is coming this very moment. I will never miss Him. I found everyone on this planet has access to the same book. They either add to or take way or just take it by faith. He is coming.. no one here speaks for Him as to when. It will happen HIS way not the way you say or I say. LOL..some of the Jewish people KNEW the books of Moshe(Moses) far better then any all of us. Yet with the messiah standing face to face they still never saw Him....and DUH..were so much better.. we KNOW!

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2018

Really amazing how some folks do not see things in Scripture.

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

•1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

keras · Oct 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Really amazing how some folks do not see things in Scripture.

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

•1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

I see the Prophetic Word quite clearly and what I see there, is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church, at all. None of your scriptures above say that God intends to take His people away from the earth to heaven.
What people need to realize is that we all must be tested and tried during the forthcoming end times events. We must stand strong in our faith and endure until the end. Revelation 14:12

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2018

keras said:
I see the Prophetic Word quite clearly and what I see there, is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church, at all. None of your scriptures above say that God intends to take His people away from the earth to heaven.
What people need to realize is that we all must be tested and tried during the forthcoming end times events. We must stand strong in our faith and endure until the end. Revelation 14:12

You are not giving me a word for word commentary on those texts.

jgr · Oct 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Really amazing how some folks do not see things in Scripture.

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

•1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The historical true Church for eighteen centuries did not see it.

Our eyesight is no better than theirs.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 8, 2018

jgr said:
The historical true Church for eighteen centuries did not see it.

Our eyesight is no better than theirs.

That's not a commentary on the texts I had given.

keras · Oct 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
You are not giving me a word for word commentary on those texts.

I have in fact written 755 articles mostly on Bible prophecy.

A bit much to post here!

They show what God actually does plan for His people. A removal from the earth, is never even considered.

But the simple fact remains: your so called 'rapture to heaven' texts, do not say that God will take His people to heaven at all.
Then; scriptures like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, prove that God's holy people are present during the time of Satans rule, the last 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
Do not think they are the Jews, as there is only one people of God, His faithful believers.
Still on earth!

And when Jesus does Return, He will gather them to where He is; in Jerusalem. 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31

jgr · Oct 9, 2018

Jason0047 said:
That's not a commentary on the texts I had given.

The commentaries of the historical defenders of the faith are freely available to all.

Douggg · Oct 9, 2018

keras said:
I have in fact written 755 articles mostly on Bible prophecy.

A bit much to post here!

Please open another thread and present what you wrote on Daniel 12. I would like to see how you handled that chapter. For example what nation is this in the first verse? And who is the children of thy people?

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2018

jgr said:
The commentaries of the historical defenders of the faith are freely available to all.

If you truly know the subject yourself and know that you are correct, you should be able to explain it in your own words from your own study of God's Word instead of parroting what someone else has said. Use Scripture with Scripture to show that you are right. Explain each word.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2018

keras said:
I have in fact written 755 articles mostly on Bible prophecy.

A bit much to post here!
They show what God actually does plan for His people. A removal from the earth, is never even considered.

But the simple fact remains: your so called 'rapture to heaven' texts, do not say that God will take His people to heaven at all.
Then; scriptures like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, prove that God's holy people are present during the time of Satans rule, the last 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
Do not think they are the Jews, as there is only one people of God, His faithful believers.
Still on earth!

And when Jesus does Return, He will gather them to where He is; in Jerusalem. 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31

Not impressed if you wrote 100,000 articles on the topic. If you are not dealing with what the text actually says and you cannot give me a really really really simple break down of what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 says in the plain English (as it appears in my Bible), then it looks like you are attempting to avoid what the text actually says.

Just post the passages and then put your commentary in the brackets with included:

(a) Context and
(b) Cross references.

Anytime Rapture View versus the rest.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Psalm 118:26

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Forgiven

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Natura non facit saltum

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Veteran

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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