Anytime Rapture View versus the rest.

[Choose Wisely]

The saved dead and the saved living all go together at once at His 2nd coming and meet Him in the air. It's going to be a glorious and noisy event! Amen.

God Bless.

I know that's what most people think. However.....the dead in Christ rise first and go to heaven. They are brought with Jesus when he comes for the living.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The living are caught up together......with those in the clouds.

And the verses are not about the coming when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth.

 

[eleos1954]

I know that's what most people think. However.....the dead in Christ rise first and go to heaven. They are brought with Jesus when he comes for the living.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The living are caught up together......with those in the clouds.

And the verses are not about the coming when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth.

Agree. God Bless

"And the verses are not about the coming when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth."

And that will happen after the GWTJ and God makes everything anew. AMEN!

 

[sdowney717]

If you want to keep things in context you should consider this verse.
Luke 21
36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
Escaping all these things that shall come to pass.........includes wars and rumors of war, famines, pestilences etc.

Look here, you don't know what your talking about.
'We who are alive and remain' until the Lord's return, they have escaped all those things.
So far, according to God's mercy, I have escaped all those things too and been preserved.

I Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Douggg]

Look here, you don't know what your talking about.
'We who are alive and remain' until the Lord's return, they have escaped all those things.
So far, according to God's mercy, I have escaped all those things too and been preserved.

You haven't been exposed to the great tribulation yet, though.

Anyone who enters into, goes through, and survives the great tribulation doesn't escape it - but survives it, because it tests everyone alive on the earth.

To escape is not to be exposed to it. To escape the Day of the Lord beginning years.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The saved dead and the saved living all go together at once at His 2nd coming and meet Him in the air. It's going to be a glorious and noisy event! Amen.

God Bless.

The Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
The rapture happens before the 7 year tribulation.
Two very different , but amazing events.
The rapture the dead in Christ since Pentacost and the present believers (the Church) meet the Lord in the clouds.
The dead in Christ since Pentacost will be the first resurrected .
Both the dead in Christ and present believers during that time will receive glorified bodies.
Different stages of the resurrection for believers , but only one for the unjust .

 

[ebedmelech]

The real problem here is the ignoring of the context of 1 Thessalonians 4.

There *should'nt* be a doubt that verses 1-12 are about how we are to live as Christians. However, starting at verse 13, it *should* be very clear this is about the resurrection. Verses 13-14:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

The subject is the dead in Christ and how they will be resurrected! There's NO talk of a tribulation, an antichrist, or anything else here. To insert such is to infringe on the text EVEN THOUGH those subjects may be discussed elsewhere. Paul is addressing resurrection and that ONLY here. He's addressing the Thessalonian saints concerns about what happens to the dead in Christ.

Paul now tells us how the resurrection will happen in verses 15-18:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The context is resurrection ONLY and it happens this way:

*The dead believers come out of their graves etc. FIRST.

* Living believers are then caught up (raptured) with dead believers to meet Christ in the air.

*Both dead and living believers SHALL WAYS be with the Lord.

In short, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 are a compact or short version of 1 Corinthians 15, which is the definitive teaching of the resurrection. To try and insert anything else is to distort what the passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is about because it mentions NOTHING ELSE!

There's no tribulation mentioned, no antichrist mentioned...all Paul wants us to understand is the resurrection and how it happens!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Look here, you don't know what your talking about.
'We who are alive and remain' until the Lord's return, they have escaped all those things.
So far, according to God's mercy, I have escaped all those things too and been preserved.

Doug already nailed it down. But I'll add this.
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

The Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
The rapture happens before the 7 year tribulation.
Two very different , but amazing events.
The rapture the dead in Christ since Pentacost and the present believers (the Church) meet the Lord in the clouds.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
(See Hebrews 12:22-24)

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(This is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The Church reigns with Christ during the millineal reign.

 

[sdowney717]

You haven't been exposed to the great tribulation yet, though.

Anyone who enters into, goes through, and survives the great tribulation doesn't escape it - but survives it, because it tests everyone alive on the earth.

To escape is not to be exposed to it. To escape the Day of the Lord beginning years.

To escape does not mean a pretrip rapture.
From the reformation study bible,

21:36 stay awake . . . praying. Watchfulness and prayer are Christian duties to the end of time.

to stand before the Son of Man. This signifies salvation at the last day.

And the last day is when Christ returns, the last day of this age. Christ comes a second time for SALVATION. A rescue from the present evil age for His people.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Which is the context of Paul's' doctrine regarding the return of Christ in Thessalonians. Christ's return is salvation for the people of God and condemnation (hell) for the world.

 

[Douggg]

To escape does not mean a pretrip rapture.
From the reformation study bible,

Give link to that bible version.

 

[Choose Wisely]

To escape does not mean a pretrip rapture.
.

Well ok, but it means a pretribulation rapture escape. He tells you that you can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass. That includes wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilence etc etc. All the things that happen including:

Luke 21
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

He tells us in verse 11 what we can escape. Then He shows us in verse 21 when it happens.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

You'll also notice that these things happen before his coming.

Luke 21
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So you will have a group of people that will go though the things that will come to pass. They are raptured pre wrath or post trib as you prefer. These people that go through these things are told to look up their redemption draws nigh.

But you also have a group of people, the Church, that escape all the things that come to pass.........and they do that with a pretrib rapture.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The Groom will not see His bride (The Church) defiled before the wedding.
His bride will not face His judgment on the unbelievers during the 7 year tribulation.
100% pretribulation rapture .
Also the Church does not replace Israel.

 

[Douggg]

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
(See Hebrews 12:22-24)

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(This is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Bab2, are you a futurist? This thread is tagged futurist and pre-millenial. I think I am going to add non-replacement theology as well.

 

[Douggg]

Bab2, are you a futurist? This thread is tagged futurist and per-millenial. I think I am going to add non-replacement theology as well.

Yes, it worked... I was able to add it.... . This thread is tagged futurist, pre-millennial, non-replacement theology.

 

[keras]

To escape does not mean a pretrip rapture.
From the reformation study bible,

21:36 stay awake . . . praying. Watchfulness and prayer are Christian duties to the end of time.

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming..... Revised English Bible.
That the REB translates it correctly, is proved by verse 35....for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
People do not 'escape' out of all that is coming, making that into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is a serous error and makes the Bible contradictory.

 

[Douggg]

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming..... Revised English Bible.
That the REB translates it correctly, is proved by verse 35....for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
People do not 'escape' out of all that is coming, making that into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is a serous error and makes the Bible contradictory.

What is the REB version of 1Thessalonians5:3 ?

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming..... Revised English Bible.
That the REB translates it correctly, is proved by verse 35....for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
People do not 'escape' out of all that is coming, making that into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is a serous error and makes the Bible contradictory.

No it doesn't at all.
And who says rapture to heaven?
And who are these people that do not escape?
And what is coming?

 

[keras]

What is the REB version of 1Thessalonians5:3 ?

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 While they are saying; 'all is peaceful, all secure', destruction is upon them, sudden as the pangs that come on a woman in childbirth and there will be no escape. R. E. Bible

I see 'they' as all the ungodly peoples.
'peaceful and secure' as after a settlement between the State of Israel and the Palestinians.
'sudden destruction', the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath, that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +

 

[keras]

No it doesn't at all.
And who says rapture to heaven?
And who are these people that do not escape?
And what is coming?

That Luke 21:36 does mean 'kept safe, or protected from' is proved by many prophesies about how the Lord will save all who call upon His Name, on His Day of wrath, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Many people like to think this verse is their ticket to heaven. They are sadly deceived.

EVERYONE, this disaster will come upon all peoples alive at that time. There is no 'get out of jail card. It will be our great test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

What is coming is the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath against the nations. Psalms 110:5-6, the Sixth Seal world changer, Revelation 6:12-17