Anyone know: Sovereign Grace Churches

[PrettyboyAndy]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I found a new church I would like to try out, I was wondering if anyone going to or knows about Sovereign Grace Churches? In Particular the Toronto one. - I believe they are affiliated with Sovereign Grace Music.

I posted links to both the Canadian Sovereign Grace page, and the local Toronto one.

Distinctives « SGF Canada

Statement of Faith - Sovereign Grace Church Toronto

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

I know a couple of pastors of SG churches and they are very solid. They are affiliated with SGM Bob Kauflin is the director and he is awesome about God Glorifying worship songs.

http://worshipmatters.com/

You should check the one in Toronto out for your self what may be true here in the states may play out differently there.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Albion]

Andy, the statement of faith is quite detailed, which many such entries that are put on church websites are not. Good for them.

A quick review of the statement reveals orthodox views on God, Christ, Salvation, and most other matters. There is a suggestion of Pentecostalism, but it is not fleshed-out, so I do not know if the signs are expected or merely allowed for. And the part about the sacraments is standard Baptist stuff. So, how does this all strike you?

 

[HereIStand]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I found a new church I would like to try out, I was wondering if anyone going to or knows about Sovereign Grace Churches? In Particular the Toronto one. - I believe they are affiliated with Sovereign Grace Music.

I posted links to both the Canadian Sovereign Grace page, and the local Toronto one.

Distinctives « SGF Canada

Statement of Faith - Sovereign Grace Church Toronto

The church might be fine. In the States though, there has been some scandal associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Not that that should tarnish every church in the group, just be aware.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Andy, the statement of faith is quite detailed, which many such entries that are put on church websites are not. Good for them.

A quick review of the statement reveals orthodox views on God, Christ, Salvation, and most other matters. There is a suggestion of Pentecostalism, but it is not fleshed-out, so I do not know if the signs are expected or merely allowed for. And the part about the sacraments is standard Baptist stuff. So, how does this all strike you?

Thanks everyone for the replys,

My Goal is: To find a biblical church for my household.

My Views: I am reformed and would be in the Calvinistic camp, I am trying to find a church that doesn't try to please everyone by watering down the Word or being neutral to please everyone.

I do like the Sovereign Grace Music, I am happy that the church plays God glorying biblical music.

I listened to some sermons, the Pastor preaches the Gospel and ties everything into Christ, and they are Calvinistic.

A church I am now attending, the pastor compared salvation to a gift-card, one could redeem it anytime.

The gifts to me are secondary issues, although very important, I had a quick chat with the pastor on the phone, he explained that the gifts of tongues was never done at their local church, and he is open to it - as a prayer language to be done in private.

They do however has prophesy from the Lord, as long as it ties in with scripture.

I am a cessationist, but I would rather reformed Calvinistic preaching with limited gifts, then go to an Arminian Baptist church.

I am thankful to everyone for their help as I do need help with this matter, as I am relativity a newer believer in Christ.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The church might be fine. In the States though, there has been some scandal associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Not that that should tarnish every church in the group, just be aware.

Thank you, I wasn't aware of this. - Thats sad the statue of limitations barred the lawsuit against CJ Mahaney

 

[Albion]

The main thing that stands out to me, Andy, is the particular stance on Baptism and the Lords Supper. No Calvinist/Reformed church would agree with the several distinctively Baptistic views that the statement of faith made clear there.

Of course, you are the one who has to reach a conclusion, but this was the part that most stood out to me as problematic.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The main thing that stands out to me, Andy, is the particular stance on Baptism and the Lords Supper. No Calvinist/Reformed church would agree with the several distinctively Baptistic views that the statement of faith made clear there.

Of course, you are the one who has to reach a conclusion, but this was the part that most stood out to me as problematic.

Could you explain what you mean? What would you have a problem with if it was your choice,

 

[Albion]

Like most Christians, I believe--and so do most churches--that infants and small children are to be baptized, that immersion is not required for a valid baptism so long as water is used, that Baptism is not just a gesture or symbol but does impart grace and assure the recipient of the forgiveness of sins, and that Baptism and the Lords Supper are indeed sacraments of the Gospel. All of that is rejected in the SG statement of faith in favor of standard Baptist and Anabaptist positions.

No Calvinist church that I am aware of takes those views, so if you are mostly oriented towards the Reformed Churches as I thought you were saying, I would recommend paying particular attention to this part of the statement and what you feel about it. On the other hand, if you are mainly a Baptist but a Particular Baptist instead of a General Baptist, this may not be an issue after all.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Like most Christians, I believe--and so do most churches--that infants and small children are to be baptized, that immersion is not required for a valid baptism so long as water is used, that Baptism is not just a gesture or symbol but does impart grace and assure the recipient of the forgiveness of sins, and that Baptism and the Lords Supper are indeed sacraments of the Gospel. All of that is rejected in the SG statement of faith in favor of standard Baptist and Anabaptist positions.

No Calvinist church that I am aware of takes those views, so if you are mostly oriented towards the Reformed Churches as I thought you were saying, I would recommend paying particular attention to this part of the statement and what you feel about it. On the other hand, if you are mainly a Baptist but a Particular Baptist instead of a General Baptist, this may not be an issue after all.

I had no idea of that bit, thank you for explaining this to me. I will read the statement of faith more carefully

 

[Radagast]

No Calvinist church that I am aware of takes those views, so if you are mostly oriented towards the Reformed Churches as I thought you were saying, I would recommend paying particular attention to this part of the statement and what you feel about it. On the other hand, if you are mainly a Baptist but a Particular Baptist instead of a General Baptist, this may not be an issue after all.

Calvinistic Baptist churches like the Sovereign Grace network (see their list of churches here) are a big part of the North American church landscape.

Sovereign Grace have a good reputation, theologically speaking. As a solidly Calvinist Presbyterian, I'd happily go to a Sovereign Grace church (sneaking off only to have a baptism elsewhere, should I have a baby).

Of course, there are other options (like this) in the Toronto area, but I don't know how good they are.

 

[Albion]

OK, I think now that the issue got muddled, and mainly by me. What I meant was that that statement from a SG church was unremarkable as Protestant churches go until you get to the part about the sacraments. Then it became solidly Baptistic. How will our friend Andy deal with that? If he is a particular or regular Baptist, he takes a Calvinistic view of salvation issues, but Reformed churches do acknowledge the two sacraments of the Gospel as they are traditionally understood an administered. So, there may be some conflict there for him.

 

[Radagast]

What I meant was that that statement from a SG church was unremarkable as Protestant churches go until you get to the part about the sacraments. Then it became solidly Baptistic. How will our friend Andy deal with that? If he is a particular or regular Baptist, he takes a Calvinistic view of salvation issues, but Reformed churches do acknowledge the two sacraments of the Gospel as they are traditionally understood an administered.

Oh, I agree with you, and I'm solidly Reformed (in the traditional sense) myself.

However, in North America, the lines between Baptist and Reformed have blurred somewhat, with some Reformed theology spreading through the Baptist community, and a rather Baptistic view of the sacraments spreading into parts of the Reformed community (some of your fellow-Anglicans lean that way as well).

For that reason, the Baptistic slant of the Sovereign Grace churches may not actually be all that different from the other options. If it does worry friend Andy, he could try bethelchurch.ca (about which I know little, I must admit). If I was in Canada, however, I might well be attending Sovereign Grace churches myself.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Calvinistic Baptist churches like the Sovereign Grace network (see their list of churches here) are a big part of the North American church landscape.

Sovereign Grace have a good reputation, theologically speaking. As a solidly Calvinist Presbyterian, I'd happily go to a Sovereign Grace church (sneaking off only to have a baptism elsewhere, should I have a baby).

Of course, there are other options (like this) in the Toronto area, but I don't know how good they are.

What is the difference between Presbyterian and Baptist?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

OK, I think now that the issue got muddled, and mainly by me. What I meant was that that statement from a SG church was unremarkable as Protestant churches go until you get to the part about the sacraments. Then it became solidly Baptistic. How will our friend Andy deal with that? If he is a particular or regular Baptist, he takes a Calvinistic view of salvation issues, but Reformed churches do acknowledge the two sacraments of the Gospel as they are traditionally understood an administered. So, there may be some conflict there for him.

Are you Baptist or Presbyterian? Just wondering

I will go this Sunday for the first time, I miss my old Baptist church while I was living in NY, I can't seem to find a church as good

 

[Albion]

Nope, neither. I am an Anglican/Episcopalian.

Good luck on your upcoming church visit. After all the analysis and talk here is over, being present in the church is really essential for making up your mind.

 

[Radagast]

What is the difference between Presbyterian and Baptist?

The Calvinistic/Reformed group includes Presbyterians (who originate in Scotland), other Reformed groups from Continental Europe, some Anglicans, and some Baptists.

Baptists are different from the rest of the Calvinistic/Reformed group because Baptists don't baptise babies and the other groups do. There are also some differences in church government.

But I see that you are Baptist in origin, so that Sovereign Grace should suit you fine.