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Anyone believe in free grace soteriology?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Ribosome, Oct 27, 2013.

  1. Petruchio

    Petruchio Guest

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    Tush! There were reformed Baptists before there were Arminian or Pelagian ones, and there are plenty of them here who are indeed Reformed. You are the one who is the greater rebel, not me.

    "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?"
    (Act 19:13-15)

    Looks like that doesn't always work, at least in exorcism, nor does it explain miracles of healing, curing leprosy, etc.

    Furthermore, when the Jews blaspheme that Christ cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub, Christ, in His reply, makes mention of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, obviously indicating that such miracles are performed by the Spirit Himself:

    "And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:"
    (Mar 3:22-29)

    Hebrews 6, as another scripture against you, points plainly to something deeper during the Apostolic age, through men, who though were not regenerated (since, otherwise, it would be impossible for them to apostatize,) nevertheless shared in the gifts of the Spirit:

    "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
    (Heb 6:4-6)

    Or as Matthew Henry explains it:

    " They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace."

    Such is plainly seen from the verse you keep mentioning, "many shall say to me, Lord Lord, have we not done many wonderful works in your name?" And yet Christ replies, "I never knew you," plainly intimating they were not true believers despite their miracles, contrast with the Sheep who He has always known, and who know Him.

    A good warning also against many of the Charismatics, mind you. Sometimes God will perform a miracle or a wonder on behalf of some evildoer, but this only to try the Saints.

    "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deu 13:1-3)

    What is more arrogant and prideful than to proclaim to the world that you, through your own good sense, chose to be converted to the Christian religion? It is better to say, that not even your own conversion was your own work, but was the work of God on your heart bringing you irresistibly to His bosom. THAT is Christianity, not so any man can boast, but so that all men must fall on their knees before Christ.

    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
    (Joh 15:16)
     
  2. JM

    JM Orthodox Protestant Supporter

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  3. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    There is always one in every thread.

    You accused me of being a rebel yet i am inline with the views of the largest baptist college in the world. That only states i am not what you claim. So yopu just falsely accused me which is a sin. Wanta tell me more about how you are lead by The Holy Spirit while your are sinning, and then preach the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not lie.

    But I really don't care to try with you any more, some times loving some one to let them go down the wrong road and see for themself.

    So I guess you just know more than me with all my schooling and everything. I could not possibly know the word of God. You alone know the word of God.

    So there do you feel better now.
    have fun

    Peace and Love
    blu
     
  4. Petruchio

    Petruchio Guest

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    I've felt nothing at all, actually. I think when you started talking about how many hours you study, or how you go to some university somewhere and being inline with people with doctorates, and accusing me of arrogance, or accusing me of bashing Baptist beliefs, as if there aren't any Reformed Baptists, and now with these latest personal things, you've all the while been projecting.

    I am not guilty of anything you have accused me of. I am just a Christian guilty of believing in all the Solas. And if you are wrong, then you are wrong. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be debating you using the scripture. And if I am wrong, I expect it to be fully demonstrable from the scriptures.

    I do not claim to be without my own delusions. Indeed, deluding ourselves is part of our nature. But let us submit to the word of God and pray for clarity, and if the scripture quite clearly says something, we ought to believe it. Though, we cannot believe it, of course, unless the Spirit teaches us in the first place.
     
  5. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

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    Just to be historically correct the baptist have had both Calvinists and Arminian(both types of Reformed theology from the Augustinian/Luther wellspring) since the beginning Baptist founders and assemblies have been both.
     
  6. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Thank You for your essay,I will attempt to get a hold on it in time.

    We must rightly divide the word,many in my faith do study Hebrew,and Greek.

    Joseph Prince,is well versed yet many of our Teachers are as well.

    Personally I am careful with discernment,to me it is the living word not a text book.

    I marvel at some of the deeper rooted meaning in Gods Word.

    One such example was when Christ stood on the shore and told Peter to throw his net to the other side,the number of fish caught translation in Hebrew was IAm God.

    Do I believe a Evangelist needs a degree in theology? No.

    Do I believe advanced study is very helpful,absolutely.

    What often concerns me is the Pagan influence that was mingled when Constantine sought to do so.

    Its not that I disrespect the reformers,I admire them for their courage and intelligence and believe they were ordained from God to do so.

    The entire world moved from the dark ages,into the renaissance and free trade increased.

    I question some of the dogma that stayed with them by condition,they still had to give some creedence to Rome.

    It brings to mind the cleansing of Israel at the bitter water to get the smell of Egypt from them
    Yet as time went on they longed for the smells of spices,forgetting the cruelty and bondage.

    My faith group is so often misunderstood,that we rehash are allegations in defence more than we can share what we know.

    I think that for my self I am going to learn more before entering harsh debates or simply do not get bogged down in a harsh setting.

    I was raised Baptist,and I have learned there is a lot of diversity among them.
    When I went to a independent Baptist Church they looked harshly on freewill Baptist.

    Since then I have learned not all independents are so ingrained in legalistic views.

    So I will hang around and learn more before I engage a debate,in Baptist forum that is bad manners anyway.

    God Bless
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    What is the Apostolic age?

    I was not informed of another dispensation,after Christ ascended.



    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.



    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    The anointing was for anyone who accepted Christ,all were and are Apostles.
    Unless you can tell me of what time period the gifts stoped,and find it in The Bible.
     
  8. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    First off, who here on the forums, does not sin in one way or another?

    Even after the point of salvation, who does not sin?

    "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" -Jesus Christ

    Those are some powerful accusations you made.

    Be careful what you say.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Actually, I was born, raised, and saved in a little "Independent, Missionary Baptist" church in Catawaba Heights, Belmont NC.

    And to tell you the truth, other than sitting at my Grandfathers (he was a Reformed Presbyterian BTW, I didn't at the time know what Reformed meant) feet, studying his handwritten notes from over 40 years of study in eschatology, and Dispensationalism. I was not introduced to Reformed Theology per se, until I went to seminary classes.

    Then I found out, I held to Reformed views.

    Speaking of Joseph Prince, he said something once that has always stuck with me, and it is indeed true:

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  10. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    The Apostolic age ended with the death of Saint John in or around AD 100.

    Peter, as recored by Luke, gave the qualifications for an "Apostle":

    "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection." -Acts 1:22 (KJV)

    The only exception to the rule was Paul who was personally called by Jesus on the Damascus Road.

    Nobody since AD 33, has seen the resurrection.

    There are no witnesses to this great event.

    Only one person since then has heard the call literally, and that was Paul.



    Source

    I am sorry, by there are no apostles since the first century.

    How and When the Twelve Apostles Died

    I strongly disagree with Fredrick K. Price having that "title" conferred on him.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  11. Vladyslaus Kyivarius

    Vladyslaus Kyivarius Regular Member

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    Yes, we all sin. :)

    God Bless
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Absolutely correct.

    No Christian will willingly sin.

    However, that does not negate the fact that we are not Jesus, therefore, being still in this earthly, carnal, flesh, we will sin.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    On being Apostles that directly witnesses Christ on earth,or hearing and beliveing in Christ,
    I do not see a dispensation change on what Christ said in Mark.

    In other words I have heard that the gifts have ceased when the Apostles died,but that does not reconcile with Mark.

    Also with Paul there was direct meeting with Christ and he repented,but later on was healed.

    Neither place mentioned when he recieved the gifts,yet Paul laid hands on many who recieved the Holy Ghost after.

    Is it the literal term Apostle that ceased or their anointing?

    If we look at Acts 1:22 in The stated context,no one could witness for Christ today the key in The term Ordained.

    Quote:

    a. To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
    b. To authorize as a rabbi.
    2. To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
    3. To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained

    Peter was speaking of the teaching of events of Christ on earth one must be qualified or ordained.

    Such as a Ordained Minster,it would be impossible to teach or preach after the Apostles died with this conclusion that a new dispensation occurred when they died.

    You know I enjoy Pastor Prices Teaching and his son even more,but myself never cared for the term Bishop,or Apostle,or any other title other than Pastor,Deacon or Preacher but that is my own perspective.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2013
  14. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    My point was if your being lead by The Holy Spirit your not going to make a false accusation against someone. It was not the fact we all sin, but can a person sin while The Holy Spirit is speaking through them? I don't think so.
     
  15. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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  16. Legionwrex

    Legionwrex Newbie

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    Depends on your definition of free grace. A lot of people will tell you that that they believe in it an whatnot, but if you don't meet the list of qualifications of what they think a Christian should look like they quickly become condemning, acting as if a Christian is to live in perfect holiness 24/7, never backsliding. It's as if they are completely unaware of the two natures of the believer.
    
    And I'll leave by saying this, anyone who isn't loving the Lord thy God with all their heart, their mind, and their soul, and who isn't loving their neighbors as themselves every second of everyday for the rest of their lives is sinning. We sin much more than we like to delude ourselves into believing.
     
  17. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Look, I showed scripture where in order to be called an "Apostle" one must have seen with their own eyes, the resurrection.

    Paul admits he was "called out of time". And spent most of his ministry in Corinth defending his apostleship.

    However, one cannot be ordained, or have confered upon them the "title" of "Apostle" since nobody fits that description anymore.

    I even gave you a site to check it out:

    Source

    The age of the Apostles, the "Apostolic Age" ended when John died in Patmos sometime around AD 100.

    What else can I say?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Sin is sin, whether you climb a tree and tell a lie, or stuff your pockets with church money.

    There are nmerous accounts in the Gospels where Jesus called the Pharisees "hypocrites".

    Hypocrasy is a sin.

    Yet being led by the Holy Spirit as you say, Peter was just as guilty of hypocrasy as the Pharisees. See Gal. 2:11.

    Paul, led by the Holy Spirit, as you say, disobeyed the Holy Spirit and went to Jerusalem anyway. See Acts 21

    So it don't mesh. It is just as easy for Spirit led men and women to sin, as it is sinners.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  19. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    One must be ordained to be witness of his resurrection.

    The passage has not qualified the condition for being a Apostle, it qualified
    The person to speak as a witness of the resurrection, if it was intended for the pedigree
    Of Apostle then it would have began with the noun Apostle and conditions for.

    They were simply replacing Judas in the original group that had physical
    Witness of Christ.
    Besides Paul,who did not witness Christ resurrection or from beginning to end,
    Barnabas was also called a Apostle.

    The literal definition for Apostle is messenger.

    Since Paul and Barnabas,were not of the first Apostles the context of Acts 1:22
    Has to be rightly divided or we have logical fallacies.

    The author of revelation John mentioned Barnabas as a Apostle.

    You are blessed my friend,it takes a bit of thought and study to reply to your post.
     
  20. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    You tip toed around what i said the a person who has The Holy Spirit speaking through them can not sin while he is speaking through, as soon as they sin there comes up a wall between the person and God. The Holy Spirit would leave. they need to repent first. do you disagree.

    This is nit picking, but to my knowledge Paul did not disobey The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit told him if he went he would die, He never said not to go, and in fact God used him to speak to people at the highest level of Roman authority. All because he went to Jerusalem.

    Peace and Love
    blu
     
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