Anyone believe in free grace soteriology?

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Faith without works is dead. –Jas. 2:20

Today, this is another one of the most hotly debated topics between Catholics and Protestants. Some teach that works do indeed justify us. Some teach a mixture of various works in combination with faith in order to be justified. And then there are some faiths that teach works flow from faith but do not contribute to justification.

Earlier on, we stated the various positions of groups in relation to justification. In many ways, the Roman Catholic and the Arminian position share the view that they must play some part not only in their salvation, but in their justification also.

Now this discussion has been from the side of the Baptist perspective, but even among Baptists, it is startling just how many reject the doctrine of Justification. In many instances, some even advocate the same position as Catholicism. And most come from a misunderstanding of the book of James.

The standpoint which divides most is one single verse from James:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.” –Jas. 2:24 (KJV)

Martin Luther wrote in his preface to James and Jude: “James does nothing more than drive a man to the Law and its works.” And this is apparent in some faiths teachings. However, Luther also admits that James wanted to guard against those who relied on faith exclusively but wasn’t quite up to the task.

During the first century, it is commonly held that James was the bishop of the church in Jerusalem. And Paul was a missionary. History dictates that during the early church, two viewpoints developed early on. Paul is well known for his battles with “legalists.” They were the type who said faith in God was correct, but what was also required was a submission to the “Law.”

Luther also was quick to point out that James called the “Law” a “perfect law of liberty.” (cf. Jas. 1:25) Paul viewed it as a Law that brings slavery, (Gal. 5:3) wrath, (Rom. 4:15) sin, (Rom. 7:7) and death (Rom. 7:10).

When men are turned away from their own self-efforts, the next step is to run in the complete opposite direction. If they cannot trust in their own self-righteousness, if they cannot be justified by their own works, then it is just a minor shift to reject works of any kind, and there is no such thing as ungodly living or ungodly practice. This is the door which leads down the path to antinomianism. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. (Jude 1:4) And this is very apparent in what it was spreading during the early church.

It has been argued that Paul and James are not contradictory, but rather, complimentary. This can be seen by the statements by these men in that Paul says you are justified by faith, verse James’ teaching that you are justified by works and not by faith alone. Arthur W. Pink wrote:

“Unless the subject and scope of James’ Epistle be clearly seen, the apprehension of many of its statements can only issue in God-dishonoring, grace-repudiating, soul-destroying error. To this portion of the Word of God, more than any other, have legalists appealed in their opposition to the grand truth of justification by grace, through faith, without works. To the declarations of this Epistle have they turned to find support for their Christ-insulting, man-exalting, Gospel-repudiating error of justification by human works. Merit-mongers of all descriptions cite James 2 for the purpose of setting aside all that is taught elsewhere in Scripture on the subject of justification. Romanists, and their half-brothers the Arminians, quote "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (v. 24), and suppose that ends all argument.”[7]

What is maintained is, that Paul addresses the fact of how a man can be justified before God, and James addresses how a man can be justified before man. Paul addresses our justification of persons, while James addresses our justification of profession. The one is by faith alone, while the other worketh by love and produces obedience. (Pink)

Both men use Abraham as an example. And the supposition that James addresses the empty profession rests on the fact that when James says:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” –Jas. 2:21 (KJV)

Whereas Paul says:

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” –Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

A fact that most seen to overlook at are the differences between what Paul is quoting from, and what James quotes, rather, bases their statements on. Paul uses Gen. 15:6 as his basis in Romans 4, and James uses Gen. 22:1-19 for his basis. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.

Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen. Without the essential element of “faith worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:6), no matter how much reading or studying, no amount of head knowledge, no amount of preaching and teaching one can do, they are no more than “sounding brass and tinkling symbol.” Without love, those professors will be the ones pleading their works but will be told: “Depart, I never knew ye.”

So…we conclude that “works,” as far as justification is concerned, plays no part. We are indeed justified by faith alone, in Christ alone.

[6] Theodore Beza, Faith and Justification, The Christian Faith, p. 18

[7] Arthur W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 9, Its Evidence, book on-line, accessed 5/31/09, found on the World-Wide-web at: 9. Its Evidence

The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed; By DeaconDean, Written: 2009

So even through research, we sxee that "works" give evidence to, not necessarily of, but evidence of, salvation.

Even Jesus said:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That's predestination, that God foreknew and elected to salvation His own peculiar people before the foundation of the world.



However, when God actually describes this process, He describes it as His act before the world began, not ours. If it was us who, through our own innate goodness and obedience, were foreknown by God and therefore elected on those grounds, He would never give the reason for unbelief as being His own action. He would say that they disbelieve because they refused his fair offer. He wouldn't say that they disbelieve because it was not given to them to believe:

"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Joh 6:64-65)

I thought the quote was no one comes to The Son unless The Father draws them to Him. maybe that is in another book.

Jesus did every thing in his power and still does to make those who disbelieve believe. Does god know who is coming to him Yes, he is waiting on the last soul to, then he pours out his wrath. It is right to say we were with God from the very start because when we were reborn we were always with him, but all were born into sin. Like i said those that come to God come from God, but what I do not believe is God said this group will come and that group will not all were give equal chance. It had to be that way, because the wicked would say it was unfair they never had a chance, and Gods children were given salvation from the very start. so there would be no choice. I believe we have two acts of free will given to us. To chose who will rule us, who is our God, and to name every thing what every we want. When we come to God It is then Gods will, not ours. i don't know about you, but I no longer want free will.

I am not sure if we are in agreement or not, sorry if i was unclear.

Another thing I don't believe god loses his children. i have been called a Calvinist, but I don't think I am.

Peace and Love
blu
 
Upvote 0

now faith

Veteran
Supporter
Jul 31, 2011
7,772
1,568
florida
✟257,472.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed; By DeaconDean, Written: 2009

So even through research, we sxee that "works" give evidence to, not necessarily of, but evidence of, salvation.

Even Jesus said:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

It makes sense,we have faith is Gods provision yet we must step out to recieved it.

Much like the daily trust in the manna from heaven they had to collect it every day except before the Sabbath,
Yet the had faith it would be there each day.

There are some other views on Abraham and Isaac,one is that Abraham was from a culture that made human sacrifices,and God was foreshadowing Christ in that there would be no more need for sacrifices a lesson.

But subject to how you interpet the passage.
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Sad, its in there, but you don't believe it.

Predestination in the Old Testament

God Bless

Till all are one.

Ok what i wrote is not what i meant. What I meant was I do not believe in pre Salvation Those chosen before came to the word they that would be saved and others not. I think everyone was given the same chance. But that when i was reborn i was with God before the foundation of the world, but while i was here on earth I was born into sin, and I had the same chance as the wicked to reject God or accept him, and I did so because I came from him. Like I said I don't completely have this idea as it deals with no time, existing in past, present ,and future.

But if that is not Biblical please show me where?
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed; By DeaconDean, Written: 2009

So even through research, we sxee that "works" give evidence to, not necessarily of, but evidence of, salvation.

Even Jesus said:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

It is faith in action, i agree with that, but i do not believe it is we who produce the works, but rather God who produces the works through us.

I'll post the whole passage because when I read the first thing I understood was I was being foolish and not seeing the truth, because i though james did not say that. i have been dealing with Lost people this week and while i was trying to lead them to God, they were leading me away. I guess it had more of an impact than i thought.

here is the full passage
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Peace and Love
blu
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It makes sense,we have faith is Gods provision yet we must step out to recieved it.

Much like the daily trust in the manna from heaven they had to collect it every day except before the Sabbath,
Yet the had faith it would be there each day.

There are some other views on Abraham and Isaac,one is that Abraham was from a culture that made human sacrifices,and God was foreshadowing Christ in that there would be no more need for sacrifices a lesson.

But subject to how you interpet the passage.

In school what we learned about this, was God stop Abraham, what God was not willing to let Abraham do to his son God would do to his own son(Jesus). It was an act of faith, but Abraham new God would not let his son die. Abraham told his servant we are going to worship we will be back when we are done. When his son asked him why there is no animal to sacrifice Abraham said God would provide the animal.

So I don't think it was God saying no more human sacrifices. Abraham had been given lesson in faith through his son be born, and him causing problems by trying to help God and slept with his servant. By the time Abraham we to offer his son, he had learned the lesson, to have faith in God.
 
Upvote 0
P

Petruchio

Guest
I thought the quote was no one comes to The Son unless The Father draws them to Him. maybe that is in another book.

It is in fact what I just quoted.

Jesus did every thing in his power and still does to make those who disbelieve believe.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Unless the Father gives it to you to believe, you cannot believe. It is not something that can be done through human persuasion, or even miracles:

"And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
(Deu 29:2-4)

It is something that one must receive directly from the Father, outside of which there is no way any wicked man can ever believe. You cannot claim that God is inactive, when it is God who directly says that they do not believe, because it was not given to them to believe.

Does god know who is coming to him Yes, he is waiting on the last soul to, then he pours out his wrath.

God is the start of this faith, and the finisher of it.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Co 12:3). "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6). "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16).

Like i said those that come to God come from God, but what I do not believe is God said this group will come and that group will not all were give equal chance. It had to be that way, because the wicked would say it was unfair they never had a chance, and Gods children were given salvation from the very start.

First, it does not follow that there is anyone in the world who "comes from God" as a result of their own innate nature, when all are children of disobedience by nature:

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
(Eph 2:2-3)

Indeed, so lost were we that it is rightly said by Paul that there is NONE who are righteous, NONE who seek after God, NONE who understand God (Rom 3:10-11), since none of us are capable of any kind of faith in and of ourselves. It must be given to us, not by our flesh and blood, but by God directly. Thus we are said to be "given" by the Father to the Son, because God chooses us out of the world, and gives us faith in Christ, without regard for our merits, but according to His own good purpose. And if by His purpose, it is not because we earned it by having the right sense to have faith in Christ.

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Secondly, in reference to "equal chance." As a matter of fact, there are millions of people, across all ages, and all across the world, who have never or will never hear the Gospel, and thus do not have an equal chance of being saved. Since they cannot believe in Christ, they, by definition, are yet in their sins. They are not excused for their ignorance, but are rather damned by that knowledge which they possess within themselves, rendering them without excuse (Rom 1:19-20, Rom 2:11-15). Even those who have heard the Gospel, perhaps may feign some excuse because of the example of bad Christians, or their own prejudices which no one took the time to refute, but all are damned already who have not believed in Christ, and therefore they cannot be saved. And even those who have had all their assertions refuted, might still claim that they were not given an "equal chance," because Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus but never appeared to them.

But our response is, that they are guilty for their sins, and that God is not obligated to give an equal chance to anyone, since:

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
(Rom 9:13-16)

Therefore, when God chooses to give a man faith, when that man was too wicked to have it of himself, He does it in mercy. And when God does not have mercy on a man, in judgment He has it not on that man, according to His sovereign purpose.

i don't know about you, but I no longer want free will.

Don't worry, you do not have it. It is God who is the captain of your will, who moves within you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It is faith in action, i agree with that, but i do not believe it is we who produce the works, but rather God who produces the works through us.

You are right, its not us, rather it is the Holy Spirit workinh in us, through us, to accomplish His work.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -Phil. 2:13 (KJV)

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Peace and Love
blu

Again, get any chain reference bible, and you'll see that both James and Paul using two different times/instances in Abraham's life.

As I shown previously:

James uses Gen. 22:1-19 for his basis. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.

Pre-salvation, that is a hallmark of "Hyper-Calvinism".

Here again, when looking at what is taught by both Paul and James, we see:

What is maintained is, that Paul addresses the fact of how a man can be justified before God, and James addresses how a man can be justified before man. Paul addresses our justification of persons, while James addresses our justification of profession. The one is by faith alone, while the other worketh by love and produces obedience. (Pink)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hello Deacon,its nice to understand your background it helps me understand you as a teacher rather than a debater.

In my research papaer, here is another example of how much studying, how far I go into looking at the meaning of words:

The Meaning of “dikiaow”

Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment, Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena, Acts 28:4.


This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.


Plato links “dikaiow” with “dikh” saying it denotes obligations to men and to God, and therefore indicates “one who fulfills obligations towards men,” fulfillment of religious duties often attributed to this by such terms as : osioV, eusebhV, qeopilhV, qeosebhV. [1]


Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.[2]) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).


The LXX uses dikaioun in these ways which should be noted:

1. (a). Active (hiphil)- “to declare someone as righteous,” “to acquit someone,” “to secure justice for him.” According to the legal custom of Israel, this “dikaioun” may not apply for the “asebhV” (wicked) cf. Ex. 23:7; Isa. 5:23. Only the “just” (dikaioV) may be declared righteous (cf. Deut. 25:1), materially: “oV dikaion krinei ton adikon de ton dikaion” (Prov. 17:15); and from the religious standpoint: “kurioV krinei laouV krinon me kurie kata thn dikaioswnhn mou kai kata thn akakian mou ep emoi” (cf. Psa. 7:9).

(b). Tar (pi)- “to prove to be innocent or righteous” Jer. 3:11: “edikaiwsen thn fuchn autou israhl apo thV asunqetou Iouda,” “it has shown itself more righteous than” Ezek. 16:51: “edikaiiwaV taV adelfaV sou” “thou hast justified thy sisters”.

2. Passive a. Of the vindication or right conduct of man (especially the chosen people) in relation to Yahweh: Isa. 43:9: “dikaiwqhtwsan; ina dikaiwqhV” (vs. 26). Related is the usage in Psa. 142:2: “oti ou dikaiwqhsetai enwpion sou pas zwn,” the LXX renders “no one can be pronounced righteous (justified) before God’s judgment,” this clearly makes the Masoretic sharper (nothing living is righteous in thy sight), here it is asserted not only universal sinfulness but the impossibility of justification. In Gal. 2:16, and in Rom. 3:20, Paul adds: “ex ergwn nomou” which shows that the Psa. 142:2 passage had an impact on Paul’s understanding of justification.

3. Passive in the intransitive sense: “dikaiwqhnai” as a translation of the Hebrew word in Gen. 44:16 where Judah asks: “ti dikaiwqwmen” “how shall we (justify) clean ourselves?”

Plato also links “dikaiaoV” with ethics for whom righteousness is a distinctly political virtue, it is firmly anchored in the soul of men, who inwardly comes to what is proper to himself, to inner order and the harmony of spiritual virtues. (Resp. IV, 443c ff)

[1] Plato, Gorgias, 507b; Polybius: dikaia with dsia. Histories, XXII, 10, 8

[2] “Themistocles, at the games those who start before the signal are beaten with rods.” Themistocles said in justification. “Those left behind win no crown.” Herodotus, Histories, Book VIII, Chapter 59, A.D. Godfey, Cambridge, Howard University Press, 1920.

Continued...
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Looking into the Greek and Hellenistic Writings

Plato says: “nomoV o pantwnbasileuV/ageidikaiwn to biaiotaton/upertata ceipi”: “the law makes a “dikaion” and declares to be right what otherwise would be supremely arbitrary.” U.v. Wilamauiety in “Platon”, II, (1920) p. 93,99 argues instead: “biaiwn to dikaiotaton” (doing violence to absolute righteousness) (cf. J. Geffchen, Studier zu Plat., Geor., Herm., 65, (1930) p. 19.) But A. Busse, Herm., 66 (1931) 126 ff, argues for the older reading.


According to Plato’s exposition[3], there is thus carried through: “to thV fusewV dikaion”. In accordance with nature, the law gives the character of right to even the most arbitrary act. It is keeping with the nuance in Plindar that that the term is often used for divine rule and order in the law: cf. Philo, Spec. Leg., I, 67,109,140; II, 72, 113; III, 172, 180; etc; and once in Josephus, Ant., 4, 278.

It was during the Greek/Hellenistic period that the word begins to be defined from the legal sphere and takes a general usage in the sense of “fair or right”, i.e.; to formulate for oneself as “dikaion”. (cf.: “axioun, dikimoun”) This is the most common usage: Soph. Oed., Tyr., 6, 575, 640; Oed. Col., 1350, 1642; Hdt., I, 89; Thuc., IV, 122, 5; this is true of both Josephus and Philo. (cf. Josh., Ant. 9, 187; 12, 1224; 19, 305; Philo, Abr., 142, 171; Migr., Abr., 73, Vit. Mos., I, 44; etc) Josephus who also uses this word ten times, never deviates from Greek usage.

When the word is applied personally, a widespread usage springs up to mean: “to establish”: “to dikaion” for someone,” “to treat rightly,” “to secure justice for someone.” This can take a negative connotation; i.e.; “to judge”, “to punish”, (cf. “kakoun”, “to do wrong” “doloun”, “to outwit,” “zhloun”, etc.)


Turning our attention to another area, particular notice should be given to the usage in the Mystical. In the Corpus Hermeticum, written by unknown authors in Egypt around the end of the third century A.D., once considered substantial literature attributed to the mystical figure of Hermes Trismegistus, this literature came out of the same religious and philosophical ferment that produced Neo-Platonism, it is recorded:

“cwriV gar krisewV ide twV thn adikian exhlasen. edikaiwqhmen, w teknon, adikaiaV apowshV”[4] (See how [the measure of] the Good is full, my son, upon truths coming. For envy is gone from us: and unto truth is joined the Good as well, with Life and Light.)[5]

The formula here perhaps consciously is given a Christian reference, and means: “we have become sinless.” “dikaiosinh” is made over to the mystic as “adikia” is driven out by the destruction of all evil desires deriving from the body. (cf. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. II, “dikaiosumh”, p. 193) But the idea of being declared righteous in judgment is rejected, and there is perhaps a polemic against the Judaeo-Christian concept of “dikaiwqhnai”. It may even be that the Egyptian idea of justification by the judgment of the dead is here given a mystical application. According to this conception, the dead are set by Osiris on the scales, weighed, and then pronounced righteous because their good works are predominate (though knowledge also counts). Stains are removed by rites of expiation and magic.

[3] Cf. Leg., III, 690c, IV, 715a.

[4] Reilzenstion Paim, 343; Scott, I, 244. Cf. Reitzenstion Hell., Myst., 258 ff., C.F.G. Heinrice, Die Hermes-Mystic v.d. N.T. (1918), p. 37

[5] The Secret Sermon on the Mountain

The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed; Written by: DeaconDean, 2009

While the doctrine of justification is not up for debate, this was posted only to show you the great lengths I go to to understand the meaning of the words used in the Greek New Testament.

So if I say "predestination" means such-and-such, you can pretty well take my word for it.

In the above article, I went as far back as 340 BC to research the meaning of the wordsused for righteous and justify. And even provied works by Plato which support my notions.

Plato, Greek philosopher, born 427 BC, Died 347 BC.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It is in fact what I just quoted.



Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Unless the Father gives it to you to believe, you cannot believe. It is not something that can be done through human persuasion, or even miracles:

"And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
(Deu 29:2-4)

It is something that one must receive directly from the Father, outside of which there is no way any wicked man can ever believe. You cannot claim that God is inactive, when it is God who directly says that they do not believe, because it was not given to them to believe.



God is the start of this faith, and the finisher of it.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Co 12:3). "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6). "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16).



First, it does not follow that there is anyone in the world who "comes from God" as a result of their own innate nature, when all are children of disobedience by nature:

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
(Eph 2:2-3)

Indeed, so lost were we that it is rightly said by Paul that there is NONE who are righteous, NONE who seek after God, NONE who understand God (Rom 3:10-11), since none of us are capable of any kind of faith in and of ourselves. It must be given to us, not by our flesh and blood, but by God directly. Thus we are said to be "given" by the Father to the Son, because God chooses us out of the world, and gives us faith in Christ, without regard for our merits, but according to His own good purpose. And if by His purpose, it is not because we earned it by having the right sense to have faith in Christ.

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Secondly, in reference to "equal chance." As a matter of fact, there are millions of people, across all ages, and all across the world, who have never or will never hear the Gospel, and thus do not have an equal chance of being saved. Since they cannot believe in Christ, they, by definition, are yet in their sins. They are not excused for their ignorance, but are rather damned by that knowledge which they possess within themselves, rendering them without excuse (Rom 1:19-20, Rom 2:11-15). Even those who have heard the Gospel, perhaps may feign some excuse because of the example of bad Christians, or their own prejudices which no one took the time to refute, but all are damned already who have not believed in Christ, and therefore they cannot be saved. And even those who have had all their assertions refuted, might still claim that they were not given an "equal chance," because Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus but never appeared to them.

But our response is, that they are guilty for their sins, and that God is not obligated to give an equal chance to anyone, since:

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
(Rom 9:13-16)

Therefore, when God chooses to give a man faith, when that man was too wicked to have it of himself, He does it in mercy. And when God does not have mercy on a man, in judgment He has it not on that man, according to His sovereign purpose.



Don't worry, you do not have it. It is God who is the captain of your will, who moves within you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.


Ok you have a lot of misunderstanding, first I never said we were righteous I said from God, When we are reborn we are give a spirit from God, thus we are from God and not from are sinful nature.

You seem to think that no one can God lord with out The Holy Spirit, but correct stament is no one can truly Have Jesus as Lord with out The Holy Spirit. point you attention to rev whichs says not all who cry Lord Lord will be saved, and others will say but we cast out demons in your name but jesus will say get away from i never new you. He is speaking of those in ministry who are false prophets and very much claim Jesus Is there Lord but in side their heart is wicked and Jesus does not live in them.

So if know one can believe with Out God making them, why did he get mad at Israel in the wilderness for there lack of faith after all the wonders of God they saw. That is not God. The fact is we have a choice to believe or not. Yes God draws us to The son. You seem to think Because Jesus said flesh and Blood has not revealed this truth to you but The Father in Heaven that you can not believe with out the father making you. That was a spiritual truth, again we have the have the choice to believe or not. You seem to be Calvinist, yes?


So you say not everyone has an equal chance so you make the judgement God is un fair? God is Justice. Why were gentiles convicted before Jesus came, do you know. God said because in there heart they new right from wrong it was God the reason they felt Guilty. same with atheist today in their heart they know there is a God, but they reject him. The well i never knew accused does not work.

Take me for example self called Christian did the most evil to me in my life i would bet. Now I could have reject God for that in fact I have been rejected by churches. i was kicked out of Sunday school at 5 or 6. Some people would have turned against God, But I came to god and am Not getting a degree in Biblical theology studies. So who had the better chance to come to god the person who supposedly does not know or me. Every one has an equal chance. Love does not play favorites and God is love. So God does not play favorites, James 2 i think and 1john4:8.


ok now Esau, do you know why God hated esau it was not simply because he was born. It was because he was a manly man, he was all ego. He also hated his inheritance and did not take his responsibilities seriously, he was pride ful. All these things God hates, he hated what he was, but he Loved him still as he hates our sin, but Gave his Beloved son as a ransom for our lives.

God giving Faith to a person is a spiritual Gift, and you have to be saved to first receive spiritual gifts, read cor 12 i believe.

Like i said you have a lot of misunderstandings
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My memory fails but I had read somewhere that not Hebrew but the dialect the O.T.

Not really.

Remember I said:

During the first century, especially in the days Christ walked on earth, the Jew basically spoke four languages.

Italian- to deal with the Roman government.
Greek- was the commom language in the marketplace, and still in some schools.
Hebrew- was the language of the Temple, mainly used by the Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadduces, and the scribes.
Aramaic- was the commom language of the people, mostly used in the households and around other Jews.

This bore true in:

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." -Lk. 4:16-21 (KJV)

The dialect was never lost, the Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadduces, Scribes all worked, read, taught, interpreted, spoke Hebrew.

Jesus read Isaiah, what was it written in? Hebrew.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
P

Petruchio

Guest
You seem to think that no one can God lord with out The Holy Spirit, but correct stament is no one can truly Have Jesus as Lord with out The Holy Spirit.

All I did was quote the verse, which said "No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." If it had meant "no man can have Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit," it would have said so. But if we say "no man can SAY" that Jesus is the Lord, the reference is obviously to an authentic confession that Jesus is the LORD, and therefore we ought to understand it as an inability to believe in Christ except by the Holy Spirit, entirely consistent with all the other verses on the matter, and many more:

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Since all men are carnal before salvation, how can anyone believe without the Holy Spirit revealing it to them?

So if know one can believe with Out God making them, why did he get mad at Israel in the wilderness for there lack of faith after all the wonders of God they saw.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
(Deu 29:2-4)

Why wouldn't He? Is man not responsible for his unbelief, even though, by nature, he is too evil to believe? But if God does not cause people to believe, why did Moses say that they saw all those miracles, and yet said that God had not granted them hearts to understand, ears to hear or eyes to see?


Yes God draws us to The son.

You continually refuse to read the verse for what it says or to understand it. What do you think it means that all those whom the Father gives to the son, do come to the Son? (John 6:37). Those people who did not believe, who were standing right in front of the Son and heard His message, had not been given it by the Father to believe. (John 6:65). There is simply no other way to read the passage.

ou seem to think Because Jesus said flesh and Blood has not revealed this truth to you but The Father in Heaven that you can not believe with out the father making you. That was a spiritual truth, again we have the have the choice to believe or not.

So then we infer from this that Peter was taught of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, which not everyone receives from the Father. And guess what?

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Therefore all those who receive the knowledge that Christ is the Messiah, do come, and yet, not all are given by the Father any special revelation, or anything at all, though they stand right in front of Christ and hear His message.

So you say not everyone has an equal chance so you make the judgement God is un fair? God is Justice. Why were gentiles convicted before Jesus came, do you know. God said because in there heart they new right from wrong it was God the reason they felt Guilty. same with atheist today in their heart they know there is a God, but they reject him. The well i never knew accused does not work.

It was you who made the argument of infidels having the ability to declare a lack of fairness on God's part. Not me. I'm the one who defended God's sovereign right to judge people for their sins, or to have mercy on someone despite their sins.

But, in your conception, you do not overcome the problem you yourself raised. Because, despite how guilty men are, in your world, they have the ability to save themselves if they reason within themselves and make the decision to believe in Christ. If they are not given the opportunity, and God works not by causing anyone to believe, but by giving everyone the same chance, as you yourself said, then God is guilty of unfairness in not giving everyone an equal chance to recover themselves.

Every one has an equal chance. Love does not play favorites and God is love. So God does not play favorites, James 2 i think and 1john4:8.

Yet, he does, because, as you know, not everyone has heard the Gospel. Can someone be saved without having heard the Gospel or believed in Christ?

ok now Esau, do you know why God hated esau it was not simply because he was born. It was because he was a manly man, he was all ego.

Yet the verses say the exact opposite:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
(Rom 9:11-16)

If God hated Esau because He foreknew his works, it does not follow that Paul would even mention that the purpose of God according to election might stand "not of works," and before either "having done any good or evil." And certainly not the "call," since if it is by God's call, it is not by man's works or faith. The objection from Paul's hypothetical opponent also makes no sense. Since, if this was based on God's foreknowledge of Esau's life choices, why would the opponent cry fault against God? He wouldn't, since there's nothing more fair than a person being damned as a result of his own fault. Furthermore, the Apostle concludes that it is not by him who "willeth," or him who "runneth," but based entirely on God's mercy. So if a man cannot be saved by God's mercy unless he chooses to (wills it), then it is not by God who has mercy, since it, of itself, cannot cause a man to believe. At best, it can meet him half way, or not at all, but either way, the deciding factor is man.

God giving Faith to a person is a spiritual Gift, and you have to be saved to first receive spiritual gifts, read cor 12 i believe.

Yet Judas received the Holy Spirit and performed miracles (Matthew 10), even though he was always a devil and a thief, and therefore was not regenerated, since all those who are saved shew their faith by their works.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yet Judas received the Holy Spirit and performed miracles (Matthew 10),

Matthew 10:

"10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." Mt. 10 (KJV)

Verse one says:

"he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." But nowhere in the Gospels does it give an account of Judas Iscariot actually performing any miracles.

Just that he had the power to.

I have not read anywhere in the scriptures where Judas performed any miracles.

If there is, please direct me to them.

even though he was always a devil and a thief, and therefore was not regenerated, since all those who are saved shew their faith by their works.

If this is true, then it invalidates your previous statement.

"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" -Mt. 12:26 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

now faith

Veteran
Supporter
Jul 31, 2011
7,772
1,568
florida
✟257,472.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Thank You Deacon,it was probably a rant against the Bible that I was reading.

Could I be misunderstanding the premise of predestination?


Does man sin due to his genetics?

Does man sin due to being born into a sin cursed world?

Did God create certain men for sin?

Answer this and it would be helpful for my understanding of Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We all of humanity sin because of the Fall, we have a fallen nature, and genetics includes defects because of that rebellion.

Yahweh is not willing that any should perish, he then gives to all of his grace that they may respond and come to see his work, ready for what would be shown for salvation, which will be in Christ, according to true faith in him. So many never come to that, and it is for us his people to bring the message of salvation in Christ as favorably as we might to give others more opportunity, according to his will. Some have response that is not true faith, but if there is the true faith, which is in Christ, Lord and savior, it is his doing with his work and grace, with only our response which cooperates with repenting of life with sin that we know of. This true faith made possible from Yahweh will last and not stop, and slipping in error and sin, though highly undesirable, will not come to loss of salvation, it is all the work of Yahweh, with the righteousness and atonement from Christ, and the work of his Spirit in us, and we are then brought to turn back to him, he does whatever it takes in his righteousness for that, and we have the eternal life and endure to the end, never losing salvation, it is shown with growing in truth and obedience, loving God and showing love to others with our being obedient, this being evidence of this salvation that lasts as it was said with what is written of it.
 
Upvote 0
P

Petruchio

Guest
But nowhere in the Gospels does it give an account of Judas Iscariot actually performing any miracles.

Just that he had the power to.

I have not read anywhere in the scriptures where Judas performed any miracles.

If there is, please direct me to them.

I don't see a reason to, since, if he had the power to, then my point is the same, making whether he used it or not utterly irrelevant. Though, since they were all commanded to go out and perform these miracles, I don't think there's any reason to think that any of them failed to do so. Can you cite specific miracles performed by any of the Apostles during Christ's ministry? If so, how many out of the 12?

If this is true, then it invalidates your previous statement.

"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" -Mt. 12:26 (KJV)

How so? And Judas isn't even the first infidel whom God moved upon with the power of the Holy Spirit. For example, Balaam, "whose eyes were opened," who, by the Holy Ghost, prophecized against the enemies of God (though he himself was an enemy), though he himself was never regenerated and therefore was no true believer. Certainly they were devils, yet God used them for his own purpose, giving them power as He saw fit, despite the fact that both were predestinated to perdition. And certainly the Spirit Himself never performed any evil, but moved these men to fulfill His will. Thus we have many during the Apostolic age who "tasted of the heavenly gift... made partakers of the holy ghost," and yet were expelled out of the church, for their unbelief, because they were never of the elect (Heb 6, 1 John 2:19).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
All I did was quote the verse, which said "No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." If it had meant "no man can have Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit," it would have said so. But if we say "no man can SAY" that Jesus is the Lord, the reference is obviously to an authentic confession that Jesus is the LORD, and therefore we ought to understand it as an inability to believe in Christ except by the Holy Spirit, entirely consistent with all the other verses on the matter, and many more:

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Since all men are carnal before salvation, how can anyone believe without the Holy Spirit revealing it to them?



And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
(Deu 29:2-4)

Why wouldn't He? Is man not responsible for his unbelief, even though, by nature, he is too evil to believe? But if God does not cause people to believe, why did Moses say that they saw all those miracles, and yet said that God had not granted them hearts to understand, ears to hear or eyes to see?




You continually refuse to read the verse for what it says or to understand it. What do you think it means that all those whom the Father gives to the son, do come to the Son? (John 6:37). Those people who did not believe, who were standing right in front of the Son and heard His message, had not been given it by the Father to believe. (John 6:65). There is simply no other way to read the passage.



So then we infer from this that Peter was taught of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, which not everyone receives from the Father. And guess what?

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Therefore all those who receive the knowledge that Christ is the Messiah, do come, and yet, not all are given by the Father any special revelation, or anything at all, though they stand right in front of Christ and hear His message.



It was you who made the argument of infidels having the ability to declare a lack of fairness on God's part. Not me. I'm the one who defended God's sovereign right to judge people for their sins, or to have mercy on someone despite their sins.

But, in your conception, you do not overcome the problem you yourself raised. Because, despite how guilty men are, in your world, they have the ability to save themselves if they reason within themselves and make the decision to believe in Christ. If they are not given the opportunity, and God works not by causing anyone to believe, but by giving everyone the same chance, as you yourself said, then God is guilty of unfairness in not giving everyone an equal chance to recover themselves.



Yet, he does, because, as you know, not everyone has heard the Gospel. Can someone be saved without having heard the Gospel or believed in Christ?



Yet the verses say the exact opposite:

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
(Rom 9:11-16)

If God hated Esau because He foreknew his works, it does not follow that Paul would even mention that the purpose of God according to election might stand "not of works," and before either "having done any good or evil." And certainly not the "call," since if it is by God's call, it is not by man's works or faith. The objection from Paul's hypothetical opponent also makes no sense. Since, if this was based on God's foreknowledge of Esau's life choices, why would the opponent cry fault against God? He wouldn't, since there's nothing more fair than a person being damned as a result of his own fault. Furthermore, the Apostle concludes that it is not by him who "willeth," or him who "runneth," but based entirely on God's mercy. So if a man cannot be saved by God's mercy unless he chooses to (wills it), then it is not by God who has mercy, since it, of itself, cannot cause a man to believe. At best, it can meet him half way, or not at all, but either way, the deciding factor is man.



Yet Judas received the Holy Spirit and performed miracles (Matthew 10), even though he was always a devil and a thief, and therefore was not regenerated, since all those who are saved shew their faith by their works.



Again you put words in my mouth I never said man could save himself. I said every one chose to believe or not. You seem to be advocating that there is not choice.

Judas did not receive The Holy Spirit you added that. In fact Jesus said i must go so The Holy Spirit will come to you. None of them had yet received The Holy Spirit. The did not receive the Holy Spirit until Pentecost after a week of fasting and prayer. You do know I am formally being taught this is a baptist college. Who do you think is right you or my professors with doctors degrees. One professor has 7 advanced degree all in Biblical studies.

That is the reason God hated Esau except it or not, But that is why.

You take one liners from the Bible and say well it means this. You have to read the chapter before and after to understand the verse in context. Like wise you have to read the whole story of Esau to understand. Esau story is the view of Liberty University, Dr Ed Hindson was my professor who taught it, look him up.

Bit of arrogance on your part Like you know, your so sure you unwilling to listen to the explanation. You will never learn anything like that way. I study the word 40 hours a week how bout you? But I must admit I am face other things now, and i am real not in place to show things. I got to deal with me first before i try to help others. so i guess we don't see eye to eye, and I will bow out and take care of me now, maybe another time we can go over it again, when I can pull Bible verse for you and show you more in depth.

Peace and Love
blu
 
Upvote 0
P

Petruchio

Guest
Again you put words in my mouth I never said man could save himself. I said every one chose to believe or not.

Yet both statements mean the same thing, since if God is not the author of faith, then man is the author of that which saves himself, and God's mercy only extends so far as man comes out to reach him.

Judas did not receive The Holy Spirit you added that. In fact Jesus said i must go so The Holy Spirit will come to you.

Then how did the Apostles perform miracles during Christ's ministry?

Who do you think is right you or my professors with doctors degrees. One professor has 7 advanced degree all in Biblical studies.

Me, but I've heard that Reformed views of scripture are ascendant amongst the Baptists. So, if they are not Calvinists yet, they will be soon. Resistance is futile.

That is the reason God hated Esau except it or not, But that is why.

I missed the part where there was a "reason."

You take one liners from the Bible and say well it means this. You have to read the chapter before and after to understand the verse in context. Like wise you have to read the whole story of Esau to understand. Esau story is the view of Liberty University, Dr Ed Hindson was my professor who taught it, look him up.

I don't need to look him up. Just use the scriptures from Romans 9 and show me how it doesn't say what I claim it says. Or exegete John 6 to support your view, and how Christ isn't telling them that the reason they do not believe is because it was not given to them to believe.

Bit of arrogance on your part Like you know,

But I do know, because the scripture tells me so.

I study the word 40 hours a week how bout you?

I don't usually measure it, but it is the Holy Spirit that teaches. Of yourself, it is impossible to know anything.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Yet both statements mean the same thing, since if God is not the author of faith, then man is the author of that which saves himself, and God's mercy only extends so far as man comes out to reach him.



Then how did the Apostles perform miracles during Christ's ministry?



Me, but I've heard that Reformed views of scripture are ascendant amongst the Baptists. So, if they are not Calvinists yet, they will be soon. Resistance is futile.



I missed the part where there was a "reason."



I don't need to look him up. Just use the scriptures from Romans 9 and show me how it doesn't say what I claim it says. Or exegete John 6 to support your view, and how Christ isn't telling them that the reason they do not believe is because it was not given to them to believe.



But I do know, because the scripture tells me so.



I don't usually measure it, but it is the Holy Spirit that teaches. Of yourself, it is impossible to know anything.


Ok I admit you got me i thought you were trying to understand, but now i see you have just come into the baptist section to preach against are views, which is against the rules by the way.

Let me answer you question about how they had power if not by The Holy Spirit. It was by the authority of Christ. In fact there are people who cast out demons who are not saved. In rev there be those who say but lord we cast out demons in your name and did works in your name, and Jesus will say I never knew you. but how could they cast out a demon then? Because the Name of Jesus has power. You seem to forget God is 3 parts The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How did they do all those thing, by authority Christ gave them. Which is just what the verses say.

What you think Gods word is telling you is not what it says. You can not read Gods word with arrogance and pride. God hates both those things and works against the person. I have learned first hand. Take the warning because you headed down a road of suffering to learn the lesson the hard way.

Peace and Love
blu
 
Upvote 0