Anyone believe in free grace soteriology?

[Skala]

No its the systematic way the word is conformed to Calvinism I disagree with.

All I did was quote scripture to you.

If you think I "conformed" scripture to Calvinism, and therefore, misinterpreted the verses I gave you, perhaps you can provide the "correct" interpretation and understanding of those two Bible verses?

 

[now faith]

All I did was quote scripture to you.

If you think I "conformed" scripture to Calvinism, and therefore, misinterpreted the verses I gave you, perhaps you can provide the "correct" interpretation and understanding of those two Bible verses?

Sigh) thanks any way,too tired to beat this dead horse anymore.

God Bless.

 

[now faith]

I'm not so much "free grace" as I am "Sovereign Grace".

God Bless

Till all are one.

I agree grace surely was not free,it was paid for in a way we will never comprehend.

 

[now faith]

See, this is where we may disagree.

I have spent a lot of time studying the morphology (linguistics) of the Greek New Testament.

And I can tell you personally that the word for "predestinate" only occurs six times in the NT, and in each and every case, it basically means "to set bounds".

If you would like, I can give you the longer definition from The "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament".

There are also a number of web-sites that trace the Greek back to around 350- 300 B.C. to the Hellenistic era.

So, if I disagree that Calvinists twist each occurrence of the word to suit our theology.

And I majored in Systematic Theology in seminary classes. Got a 98!

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hello Deacon,its nice to understand your background it helps me understand you as a teacher rather than a debater.

On systematic theology,if you ad hear to Calvin's dogma and its relevance today,
Could his views be based on his cognitive development of theory?

On 300 BC translation,I was under the impression the Hebrew dialect was lost.

There are debates over the Septuagint and its validity.

But for the New Testament the common language Koine Greek was used.

There should be much less ambiguity with its translation,unless it falls into interpretation from cognitive opinions.

I am one who believes the Bible is the living word,as the old phrase goes:

You don't read the Bible the Bible reads you.

 

[Skala]

Sigh) thanks any way,too tired to beat this dead horse anymore.

God Bless.

You can't explain why or how those verses are being misunderstood, but by golly, all you know is that they are!

So basically you're full of assertions but no real substance.

Gotcha.

 

[sheina]

In Defense of the Gospel: Free Grace

There are about 5 or 6 really good articles on this blog (In Defense of the Gospel) on the topic of "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation".

 

[JM]

I think you all need to "let go and let God..." haha

 

[now faith]

You can't explain why or how those verses are being misunderstood, but by golly, all you know is that they are!

So basically you're full of assertions but no real substance.

Gotcha.

Gotcha?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

This verse you have causative translation,you have interpetation of physical works to bare fruit that you may boast.

The passage is formative relating to in the works of Christ (love,mercy,faith)God has predestined Christ for our salvation.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 2:18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

Same thing it is Gods pleasure we are separate from darkness,in Pauls absence to be careful of the flesh.

 

[Ribosome]

In Defense of the Gospel: Free Grace

There are about 5 or 6 really good articles on this blog (In Defense of the Gospel) on the topic of "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation".

thank you for that helpful link!

 

[Bluelion]

On this predestine stuff i don't believe in but I believe all who come to god do so because they came from God and all who do not never were from God. What i mean is when we are reborn time has no meaning we always were with God. There are not people who were added at this day and this date there is no time. those who do not come were born in sin and never were alive spiritually to start with. thus they never were from God.

That is Spirit which I speak, and i just barely understand it. So if you don't understand spiritual things don't jump down my throat. You either see it, or you don't.

one more note this also fits with Scripture were Jesus said it is the will of The Father that I not lose one of all he has given me. I do not believe God loses his children, or he loses ever.

 

[DeaconDean]

Hello Deacon,its nice to understand your background it helps me understand you as a teacher rather than a debater.

Don't misunderstand me, I do like to debate, at times.

On systematic theology,if you ad hear to Calvin's dogma and its relevance today,
Could his views be based on his cognitive development of theory?

Perhaps, but theology as far as the Reformers are concerned was coming to the forefront at this time.

On 300 BC translation,I was under the impression the Hebrew dialect was lost.

Hebrew was never lost.

During the first century, especially in the days Christ walked on earth, the Jew basically spoke four languages.

Italian- to deal with the Roman government.
Greek- was the commom language in the marketplace, and still in some schools.
Hebrew- was the language of the Temple, mainly used by the Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadduces, and the scribes.
Aramaic- was the commom language of the people, mostly used in the households and around other Jews.

And you misunderstand me, the New Testament was written mainly in the Koine Greek, which puts most likely, the earliest writtings around AD 34-40.

And you also must understand that not all words in the Hebrew could translate over into the Greek.

So, when looking at certain Greek words from the New Testament, I go to great lengths to research the word. And most of the Greek words, have roots that can be traced back to the Hellenestic era of Greece. Circe 400-300 BC.

There are debates over the Septuagint and its validity.

But for the New Testament the common language Koine Greek was used.

There should be much less ambiguity with its translation,unless it falls into interpretation from cognitive opinions.

I am one who believes the Bible is the living word,as the old phrase goes:

You don't read the Bible the Bible reads you.

I never argued against any of that.

The Septuagint has its value as to looking at some Greek words.

But according to my research, the proper definition for "predestinate" is:

This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense “to foreordain” “to predestinate.” Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: “h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, “hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn,” 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: “proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou ,” Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, “proopizw”, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

So it would not be out of line to say:

...predestination is the mode by which God used to conform the elect to the image of His Son, by which we (the elect) are appointed to divine sonship.

Hope this hepls.

God Bless

TIll all are one.

 

[Skala]

Gotcha?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

This verse you have causative translation,you have interpetation of physical works to bare fruit that you may boast.

The passage is formative relating to in the works of Christ (love,mercy,faith)God has predestined Christ for our salvation.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. 2:18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

Same thing it is Gods pleasure we are separate from darkness,in Pauls absence to be careful of the flesh.

Those are the best non-answers I have ever seen.

Please try again.

 

[SeventhValley]

My position at the moment is that the works dispensation in the synoptics was for Jewish Christians where as once they were cut off most of that no longer applies. This would take me closer to a more antimonian position but it dose help to form a more consistent faith alone stance than I have had.

 

[DeaconDean]

Gotcha?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

This verse you have causative translation,you have interpetation of physical works to bare fruit that you may boast.

I must come to his defense here.

I have never heard or read him saying anything like that. That is not true.

The passage is formative relating to in the works of Christ (love,mercy,faith)God has predestined Christ for our salvation.

I'm sorry, but that isn't what it means.

Noted Baptist theologian John Gill wrote:

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them,

or has "before prepared"; for the preparation of good works to be performed by saints, and the preparation of them for the performance of them; are both from the Lord; God has appointed good works to be done by his people and in his word he has declared what they are he would have done; and it is his will not only that they should do them, but continue to do them; not only that they should do a single act or more, but walk in them; their conversation and course of life should be one continued series of good works; but the intention is not that they should be saved by them, but that they should walk in them; and this being the pre-ordination of God, as it shows that predestination is not according to good works, since good works are the fruits and effects of it, so likewise that it is no licentious doctrine; seeing it provides for the performance of good works, as well as secures grace and glory.

Source

We maintain and have always said that works, give evidence to, bear witness to, and are the fruit of our salvation.

God has prepared us to do them, and that only happens after the point of salvation, and not only that, but our entire Christian life we should walk in them.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

On this predestine stuff i don't believe in

Sad, its in there, but you don't believe it.

Predestination in the Old Testament

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[now faith]

Don't misunderstand me, I do like to debate, at times.



Perhaps, but theology as far as the Reformers are concerned was coming to the forefront at this time.



Hebrew was never lost.

During the first century, especially in the days Christ walked on earth, the Jew basically spoke four languages.

Italian- to deal with the Roman government.
Greek- was the commom language in the marketplace, and still in some schools.
Hebrew- was the language of the Temple, mainly used by the Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadduces, and the scribes.
Aramaic- was the commom language of the people, mostly used in the households and around other Jews.

And you misunderstand me, the New Testament was written mainly in the Koine Greek, which puts most likely, the earliest writtings around AD 34-40.

And you also must understand that not all words in the Hebrew could translate over into the Greek.

So, when looking at certain Greek words from the New Testament, I go to great lengths to research the word. And most of the Greek words, have roots that can be traced back to the Hellenestic era of Greece. Circe 400-300 BC.



I never argued against any of that.

The Septuagint has its value as to looking at some Greek words.

But according to my research, the proper definition for "predestinate" is:



Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, “proopizw”, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

So it would not be out of line to say:



Hope this hepls.

God Bless

TIll all are one.

From one perspective could the intended use,of predestined in context be God predestined man to grace through Christ?

My memory fails but I had read somewhere that not Hebrew but the dialect the O.T.
Was written in.

It was a study on early Bible translations.

God Bless

 

[now faith]

I must come to his defense here.

I have never heard or read him saying anything like that. That is not true.



I'm sorry, but that isn't what it means.

Noted Baptist theologian John Gill wrote:



Source

We maintain and have always said that works, give evidence to, bear witness to, and are the fruit of our salvation.

God has prepared us to do them, and that only happens after the point of salvation, and not only that, but our entire Christian life we should walk in them.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well maybe we are not that far apart.

What I would consider good works would be a result of a renewed mind.

We are to love one another,we are sons yet servants,our faith pleases God.

But if it is construed that even these works somehow validates your salvation I disagree.

Or if the favor of God would abound and increase,by any work I would disagree,with the exception of faith.

God is no respecter of persons,yet he is pleased by faith.

Reference the (hall of faith)Hebrews 1.

I believe you cannot sanctify by works but only by a new creature.

 

[Petruchio]

On this predestine stuff i don't believe in but I believe all who come to god do so because they came from God and all who do not never were from God.

That's predestination, that God foreknew and elected to salvation His own peculiar people before the foundation of the world.

What i mean is when we are reborn time has no meaning we always were with God. There are not people who were added at this day and this date there is no time. those who do not come were born in sin and never were alive spiritually to start with. thus they never were from God.

However, when God actually describes this process, He describes it as His act before the world began, not ours. If it was us who, through our own innate goodness and obedience, were foreknown by God and therefore elected on those grounds, He would never give the reason for unbelief as being His own action. He would say that they disbelieve because they refused his fair offer. He wouldn't say that they disbelieve because it was not given to them to believe:

"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Joh 6:64-65)

 

[now faith]

I think you all need to "let go and let God..." haha

J.M. do you believe that from the beginning God decided who would have salvation and who would not?

If so was it for a reason or God simply had shown prejudiced?

If this is true why would Christ have commanded the great commission,(go ye into all the world)?

It seems it would be unnecessary.

What is your understanding of mercy?

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Any man? Whosoever? this is a good point on mercy.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well maybe we are not that far apart.

What I would consider good works would be a result of a renewed mind.

We are to love one another,we are sons yet servants,our faith pleases God.

But if it is construed that even these works somehow validates your salvation I disagree.

Or if the favor of God would abound and increase,by any work I would disagree,with the exception of faith.

God is no respecter of persons,yet he is pleased by faith.

Reference the (hall of faith)Hebrews 1.

I believe you cannot sanctify by works but only by a new creature.

Several years ago, I was involved in a study on "righteousness and justification".

And in doing so, I was forced to deal with Paul and James.

Here is what I found out:

The Relation of Faith to Justification

Here we approach a section much anticipated, and another which even today, stirs debate, controversy, misunderstanding even among mature “Christians.” Either too much emphasis is placed, or not enough. Charles Hodge says: “All who profess to be Christians admit the doctrine of justification by faith.” Well, that may have been true in the 1870’s it may have been admitted in the 1930’s during Arthur W. Pink’s time. But here in the twenty-first century, it is no longer admitted.

Pelagians and rationalists reduce the subject to one of “moral excellence.” They teach that God, as in the case of Abraham, and in the case of other men, accepts the pious state of mind involved in the exercise of faith or confidence in God, in lieu of perfect righteousness.

Catholics make faith mere “intellectual assent.” They do teach that one needs faith, but it is “faith plus works” as in the case of the teaching in Jas. 2:24. The Catholic position is stated in the Council of Trent, Session 6. And they also say that anyone who disagrees their teaching, “Let him be cursed.” And Catholics are not the only ones who have downplayed the role of faith in justification. It is also misunderstood by John Wesley, John Nelson Darby, and the Plymouth Brethren.

John Wesley taught:

“God’s work in us consisted of Prevalent Grace, which undoes the effects of sin sufficiently that we may then freely choose to believe. An individual’s act of faith then results in becoming part of the body of Christ which allows one to appropriate Christ’s atonement for oneself, erasing the guilt of sin.”[2]

John Nelson Darby said:

“This was Abraham’s faith. He believed the promise that he should be the father of many nations, because God had spoken, counting on the power of God, thus glorifying Him, without calling into question anything that God said by looking at circumstances; therefore this also was counted to him for righteousness. He glorified God according to what God was. Now this was not written for his sake alone; the same faith shall be imputed to us for righteousness.”[3]

Perhaps one of the best statements on faith and justification is found in the Westminster Larger Catechism:

“Question 73: How does faith justify a sinner in the sight of God?
Answer: Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it, nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification; but only as it is an instrument by which he receives and applies Christ and his righteousness.”

Even though this was written over 360 years ago, it is still just as correct as it was the day it was originally penned. There is a key word in this statement which we wish to place emphasis upon. It is the word “instrument.” Arthur W. Pink says:
“It is more accurate to speak of faith as the "instrument" rather than as the condition, for a "condition" is generally used to signify that for the sake whereof a benefit is conferred. Faith is neither the ground nor the substance of our justification, but simply the hand which receives the divine gift proffered to us in the Gospel.”[4]

Well, exactly what is the proper place and influence that faith has in the doctrine concerning justification? Catholicism teaches that it justifies us formally, not relatively; rather, it is upon the account of its intrinsic value. (cf. Council of Trent, Cannon 12, Session VI) They are also quick to point out that faith is never alone, it “worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:16), and therefore, its own excellency merits God’s acceptance. But we might point out that the faith of even the best of us is weak and deficient (Lk. 17:5), and so could never satisfy the Law, which requires a flawless perfection. If righteousness were given as a reward for faith, then the believer would have cause to boast. But even then, the Apostle Paul says that is not the case. (cf. Rom. 3:26-27) Such a method of justification frustrates the life and death of Christ, making His great sacrifice unnecessary. It is not faith as a spiritual grace which justifies us, but the instrument with which lays hold of Christ.

What is the relation of faith to justification? The Arminian answer is refined by the Plymouth Brethren; the act of believing is imputed to us for righteousness. As in science, you start with an assumption, and you work for evidence in support of it. If your base assumption is two plus two equals five, you work to prove your assumption is true. However, if your base assumption is in error, then the rest of your results would be in error also. One error leads to another. As in the case of J. N. Darby, he believed the Gentiles were never under the Law, but he also denied Christ obeyed the Law in His peoples place. Therefore, Christ’s obedience was not reckoned to their account, thusly leaving them to seek righteousness elsewhere. This he insisted to find in the Christians own faith, he insists that the act of believing (faith) is imparted for righteousness.[5]

A seminary teacher used the old proverb: “Even a stopped clock is right two times a day.” To teach a lesson that even those we disagree with, you can sometimes find a “nugget” of truth. While Darby was wrong in some things, he was right in others. However, in this instance, Darby is wrong because the Greek will not support his view.

Three times in Romans 4, the preposition “eiV” (ice) is used. In verse 5: “his faith is counted “eiV = for” righteousness.” In verse 9: “faith was reckoned to him “eiV = for” righteousness. In verse 22: “it was imputed to him “eiV = for” righteousness.” In each of these verses, the preposition “eiV” never means “in the stead of”, but signifies “towards, in order to, with a view to”, and in rare circumstances, it can mean “because of.” It has a uniform usage as “into” or “unto.” The clearest meaning in this passage of scriptures is found in verse 10: “with the heart man believeth unto “eiV” righteousness”: that the believing heart reaches out towards and lays hold of Christ Himself. This passage (cf. Rom. 10:10) may help us to understand what justification by faith is, for it shows that righteousness there comes to us when we embrace God’s goodness offered to us in the Gospel. We are then, for this reason, made just: because we believe that God’s propitious to us through Christ. (Calvin)

The Holy Spirit meant what He related to the Apostles as they wrote the New Testament. And some words were chosen with precision. Another preposition that merits note is “anti.” “Anti” as used in the Greek means: “over against; hence, in correspondence to, answering to, in place of, in retribution or return for, in consideration of, on account of.” This is important as it helps us make our point. It is important in that righteousness is never imputed to us “on account of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “because of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in consideration of” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in correspondence to” faith. Righteousness is never imputed to us “in answering to” faith. And most importantly, righteousness is never imputed to us “in place of” faith or perfect obedience.

Some may argue that the texts agree with Darby’s position. Does it say that Abraham’s faith was account for righteousness? To answer that, we point to what King David said: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.” Are we to believe that hyssop, a worthless shrub, has the kind of fitness to stand in the place of the sacrificial blood, and make an atonement for? It has no more fitness as faith to stand in the place of Christ’s perfect obedience, to act as our justifying righteousness, or to procure our acceptance with God.

In Genesis 15:6 we read: “And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Now, was it Abraham’s faith itself which was in God’s account taken for righteousness (Darby’s assumption). Or, was it the righteousness of God in Christ which Abraham’s faith laid hold of? Abraham’s faith was nothing more and nothing less than the renunciation of all virtue and strength in himself, and placing a child-like trust upon God for what He was willing and able to do. This is very far from his faith being a mere substitute for a righteousness which he lacked. Even further was God’s accepting Abraham’s faith “in place of” a perfect obedience to His Law. Rather was Abraham’s faith the acting of a soul which found its life, its hope, its all in the Lord Himself. And that is what “justifying” faith is, it is “simply the instrument by which Christ and His righteousness are received in order to justification.” It is emptiness filled with Christ’s fullness; impotency lying down upon Christ’s strength.” (J.L. Girardeau)

Having said that, let’s mention one last thing…


[2] John Wesley, Sermon 5, Justification by Faith.

[3] J.N. Darby, Synopsis, Romans 4, Book on-line, accessed 5/28/09, found on the World Wide Web at: Bible Commentary

[4] Arthur W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 8, Its Instrument, book on-line, accessed 5/28/09, found on the World Wide Web at: 8. Its Instruments

[5] “The same faith shall be imparted to us also for righteousness-faith in God as having raised up Jesus from the dead. It is not mere faith in Jesus…” J.N. Darby, Darby’s Synopsis, Romans 4, Commentary on-line, accessed 4/19/09, found on the World-Wide-Web at: Romans 4 - John Darby’s Synopsis - Bible Commentary

Continued...