Any thoughts on how this plays out in the marriage relationship?

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Conservativation

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It's a sad thing that in some of the men's eyes they feel spiritually inferior to women so they see the need to lash out and say nasty and hateful things to us that really are not true. All in an effort to make themselves feel more superior.

Does it really make you feel better to take our words and twist them in order to be able to make your point? Why not just take us at our word and believe that we do not think we are any kind of superior over men.

You know, if I miss a day of church I get told that I'm not a Christian. But yet it's just fine and dandy for him to miss a day in order to go golfing. And if I was to tell him that I thought he wasn't a good enough Christian for not going? Oh my goodness, all heck would break loose.

The way I see it is that some of the men on this forum have inferior issues and they are trying to put the blame on the women for it. It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.


Nope...I dont feel that way whatsoever. Thats why Im on this issue, to rid this perception from the general church.

Its sad, the secular population still thinks the church oppresses women, thats the party line when dealing with the "religious right". Then some extreme (none here right now) women claim that too, and outright not only claim spiritual superiority but list the female attributes that make women more spiritually inclined.

Then as I mentioned before the example of the womens conference vs similar mens conferences contain the best example of the issues with the church. I doubt anyone looked, because I sincerely do not believe anyone wants to either understand this or acknowledge it.

The press release from PK or about PK is propaganda. If you were a person who was involved during all that, involved with PK and other peripheral related issues, the truth is not hard to know. Its not a theory, its not a paranoid conspiracy idea, its a well documented fact, there were several letters to PK HQ from PK regional offices reflecting the issues that sprang up, and challenges to "the coach" for what he wrote and the new and "improved" basis of PK, which was essentially what would definately sell well, to most women and many men, that if we could just get men down on their knees repenting for our nature and oppression the world will be a better place. Men were able to process that message a lot, because we hear it alot, but the lure of the original PK was it was safe for men, encouraging (like that womens conference linked on this forum in another thread).
 
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dallasapple

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Yes you do.

In you own words :


Women are more disciplined and more selfless is what you are saying.
Sure you qualify it with could, but since you disagree with every other possibility it's pretty obvious that you think it is the case.

That is NOT the same as being spiritually superior..Chaz.I think it boils down to social conditioning..girls are EXPECTED to have more patience..as well as they are MORE LIKELY to be expected to serve others or have female role models who are serving others in their day to day life.

Just look at the schools Chaz..by FAR the role model of "teacher" is female.The teacher is a female and she is expected to have 'patience" and she does..Then its far MORE likely at home as well..its the mother /female..in the more sacrificial role(in a VISIBLE way on a regular basis) in the home..As well as discipline?..Its not TOLEREATED at all if a the girl acts out aggressivley.Never has been because girls just simply arent supposed to act like that..Doesnt matter that they have the same impulses..they are TRAINED to control it..Boys on the other hand..all be it will get in trouble..its more of a "well you can EXPECT THAT" from a boy..there is still an attitude..sort of an "out" ..of ..well thats not right..BUT ..boys will be boys..

Thats not "spiritual superiority"..its training.Girls are trained to be more disciplined in GENERAL..I guess her "out" is..she is then encouraged or more likely to be allowed ..to express her frustrations/emotions by CRYING...

Anyway you can say ..that I THINK I have a "spiritual superiority complex" over ALL men becasue Im a female all you want..But thats a lie..and I dont have to believe you ..so in a nutshell it matters NOT what you think I believe about myself.

Dallas
 
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Conservativation

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I believe you dallas, I dont think you have the complex I am referring to, that others clearly do have.

The thing about school is a good example, its also unfriendly to boys.

The whole expectations thing in both places aligns more with females, even if its a discipline needed to do it, its less natural for males.

So in many ways the school shares the issue with the church. And the effects of it for schools are not being admitted its a problem either, as males fall by the wayside in higher education. NOT seen as a problem.
 
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chaz345

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That is NOT the same as being spiritually superior..Chaz.I think it boils down to social conditioning..girls are EXPECTED to have more patience..as well as they are MORE LIKELY to be expected to serve others or have female role models who are serving others in their day to day life.

Just look at the schools Chaz..by FAR the role model of "teacher" is female.The teacher is a female and she is expected to have 'patience" and she does..Then its far MORE likely at home as well..its the mother /female..in the more sacrificial role(in a VISIBLE way on a regular basis) in the home..As well as discipline?..Its not TOLEREATED at all if a the girl acts out aggressivley.Never has been because girls just simply arent supposed to act like that..Doesnt matter that they have the same impulses..they are TRAINED to control it..Boys on the other hand..all be it will get in trouble..its more of a "well you can EXPECT THAT" from a boy..there is still an attitude..sort of an "out" ..of ..well thats not right..BUT ..boys will be boys..

Thats not "spiritual superiority"..its training.Girls are trained to be more disciplined in GENERAL..I guess her "out" is..she is then encouraged or more likely to be allowed ..to express her frustrations/emotions by CRYING...

Anyway you can say ..that I THINK I have a "spiritual superiority complex" over ALL men becasue Im a female all you want..But thats a lie..and I dont have to believe you ..so in a nutshell it matters NOT what you think I believe about myself.

Dallas

But if patience and selflessness are spiritual virtues, and Scripture is quite clear that they are, and you say that women are inherently more patient and more selfless, then yes you are saying that women are spiritually superior, even if you won't admit it.
 
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chaz345

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Ok let's bottom line this.

Do you women who seem intent on denying that there is any sort of problem in how church is done that makes men less likely to go even see it as a problem that there are so many more women in church than men, and that many of the men that are there are uninvolved and disinterested?
 
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FaithPrevails

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But if patience and selflessness are spiritual virtues, and Scripture is quite clear that they are, and you say that women are inherently more patient and more selfless, then yes you are saying that women are spiritually superior, even if you won't admit it.

I disagree b/c there may be spiritual virtues that men are more inherently attuned to, but that doesn't make them spiritually superior over women. We have to have traits that one or the other gender is more designed to succeed at or exhibit, IMO - that is part of what makes us complementary to one another.
 
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chaz345

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The press release from PK or about PK is propaganda. If you were a person who was involved during all that, involved with PK and other peripheral related issues, the truth is not hard to know. Its not a theory, its not a paranoid conspiracy idea, its a well documented fact, there were several letters to PK HQ from PK regional offices reflecting the issues that sprang up, and challenges to "the coach" for what he wrote and the new and "improved" basis of PK, which was essentially what would definately sell well, to most women and many men, that if we could just get men down on their knees repenting for our nature and oppression the world will be a better place. Men were able to process that message a lot, because we hear it alot, but the lure of the original PK was it was safe for men, encouraging (like that womens conference linked on this forum in another thread).

True, it doesn't really matter WHY PK changed even though there is plenty of evidence that it did so to appease women's groups. What's relevant and undeniable is that it went from being encouraging and uplifting to a half step shy of judgemental and condemning.
 
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chaz345

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I disagree b/c there may be spiritual virtues that men are more inherently attuned to, but that doesn't make them spiritually superior over women. We have to have traits that one or the other gender is more designed to succeed at or exhibit, IMO - that is part of what makes us complementary to one another.

I absolutely agree that such things probably exist. Care to name a couple though? If you did, I bet that you'd find that by and large, even though they are Scripturaly shown as virtues, even though they are traits that Christ Himself had, that they are by and large portrayed as negative by the Church and by society as a whole.
 
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dallasapple

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The majority of the experts who write on gender differences and aggressiveness tend to
oppose the theory proposed by Maccoby and Jacklin that males are biologically
predisposed toward aggressive behavior when compared to females. The most
commonly accepted view is that the gender differences toward violence and aggression
are influenced by the environment in which people are brought up. Johnson (1972: 108)
writes that it is true that hormones influence behavior, but at the same time “masculine”
and “feminine” behavior is also influenced by the outside environment and “the long
socialization process through which children learn society’s values.”
“All human behavior is regulated and formed by cultural factors,” write Lagerspetz and
Bjorkqvist (1994: 132). “Accordingly, the difference in aggressiveness between the
sexes has been attributed to their social roles, in addition to or instead of biological
factors.” Berkowitz (1993: 395) writes that the majority of social scientists find the
causes of aggression in the traditional social roles that have been assigned to men and
women.
In an article titled​
On the Biological Basis of Sex Differences in Aggression, Todd Tieger
(1980: 956) notes that, “males are encouraged to cultivate aggressive ‘talents’ in a
competition-oriented economic system, while females are discouraged from similar goals
at the price of losing their ‘femininity.’” Buss (1961: 283) writes that males in their
youth are pressured by the environment to be active, dominant, and competitive, with
an emphasis on physical aggressiveness. At the same time, females are taught to be
non-aggressive, with fighting strictly taboo. These stereotypes influence and maintain
male aggressiveness and female passivity all over the world.
Writing about the important issues at stake when scientists from the two opposing sides
discuss human aggression and its causes, Morton Hunt (1973: 22) gives his opinion:
If people are largely controlled by their instincts and if their behavior is encoded
in their genes, they and their future can only be regarded with pessimism; people
must then be viewed as innately dangerous and brutal and dealt with accordingly.
If the poor, the indolent, the criminal, the greedy and the sadistic are acting
according to their hereditary inclinations, there is little point in trying to change
them. But if people are not instinct-controlled, but have a highly educable and
modifiable nature, then it is possible to be hopeful for the future, despite the
wretched history of humankind.
The Seville Statement from 1989, drafted by an international group of scientists from the
fields of genetics, anthropology, psychology, biochemistry, and others have concluded
that aggressive behavior and violence are not “genetically programmed into human
nature” (Kriesberg, 1998: 35). In his book
The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness,
Erich Fromm (1973: 22) says that those who are unable or afraid to change destruction
around them are the people who support the theory of inborn violence and aggression in
humans. “This theory of an innate aggressiveness easily becomes an ideology that helps
to soothe the fear of what is to happen and to rationalize the sense of impotence,” writes
Fromm.
This part of the paper has contrasted the two opposing views on aggression in humans.
The evidence presented suggests that there is not enough credible proof that aggression
is caused by an instinct or primarily by biological and genetic factors. This author’s
opinion is that the theorists and experts who support the notion that human aggression
is learned and influenced by the external environment make a well supported case for

their claims

Source..this is a small exert .

http://www.savoheleta.com/Human_Aggression_Pre-disposed_or_Learned_by_Savo_Heleta.pdf

Cons..there is NO conclusive evidence..in fact the newest research and opinions are leaning towards aggression in GENERAL isnt an "instinct" ..let alone more 'natural" in males by gentics/biological reasons.

It sounds like its purely enviromental..but that maybe the biological differnces in males and females mainly hormones..that males are more likely to be triggered into violence..which is a LEARNED behavior not an instinct .

Dallas
 
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FaithPrevails

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I absolutely agree that such things probably exist. Care to name a couple though? If you did, I bet that you'd find that by and large, even though they are Scripturaly shown as virtues, even though they are traits that Christ Himself had, that they are by and large portrayed as negative by the Church and by society as a whole.

Here are the 7 virtues and how I personally feel they "balance out" between the genders.

  1. Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!). - Male/Female
  2. Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail. Female
  3. Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others. Female
  4. Fortitude is never giving up. Male
  5. Justice is being fair and equitable with others. Male
  6. Prudence is care of and moderation with money. Male/Female
  7. Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed. Male/Female
 
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chaz345

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Here are the 7 virtues and how I personally feel they "balance out" between the genders.

  1. Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!). - Male/Female
  2. Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail. Female
  3. Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others. Female
  4. Fortitude is never giving up. Male
  5. Justice is being fair and equitable with others. Male
  6. Prudence is care of and moderation with money. Male/Female
  7. Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed. Male/Female

Ok fair enough and I basically agree. But attitudes in the Church and in larger society do not necessarily reflect the same belief in terms of how they balance.
 
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dallasapple

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Wait a minute, didn't you just post something that said that males are predisposed toward violence/agression? But then here you are saying men are that way because they are expected/conditioned to be. Which is it?

Males are predisposed to violence more often than females because they are TAUGHT and conditioned that its EXPECTED of them or in a sense that its how they are "naturally" in response to their enviroment.

I dont think males are BORN (neither are females) with a PREDISPOSITION /instict to act out in VIOLENCE..Agression.Its all about a response/learned behavior in reaction to our enviroment.

If you take a male child who is regularly exposed to violence from birth to 10...he will act out aggressively and in a violent manner in response to stimuli/provacation as if its completley NATURAL....

If you take a male child who is NEVER exposed to violence from birth to 10...He will NOT act out agressivley and in a violent manner in response to stimuli/provacation it will be AGAINST his nature.

Dallas
 
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dallasapple

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Here are the 7 virtues and how I personally feel they "balance out" between the genders.

  1. Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!). - Male/Female
  2. Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail. Female
  3. Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others. Female
  4. Fortitude is never giving up. Male
  5. Justice is being fair and equitable with others. Male
  6. Prudence is care of and moderation with money. Male/Female
  7. Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed. Male/Female


I disagree...I think all of these virtues are completely applicable to males and females..Whether they be absent or present in any specific individual person.

I dont think males nor females have by design any particular strenght or weakness in any of these virtues based on simply the fact they are a different gender..Not inherently.

Dallas
 
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chaz345

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I disagree...I think all of these virtues are completely applicable to males and females..Whether they be absent or present in any specific individual person.

I dont think males nor females have by design any particular strenght or weakness in any of these virtues based on simply the fact they are a different gender..Not inherently.

Dallas

So let me ask this. Are you suggesting that ALL behavior/trait differences between the genders are completely due to conditioning and what they are taught?
 
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dallasapple

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I'll admit that you are not openly claiming that women are spiritually superior. But that idea is the only thing that what you are saying can rest on as a foundation.

And the idea that aggression and violence is expected of boys is utter and complete nonsense. Look at schools. You can't even play dodgeball anymore because it's too agressive and violent. So great is the fear of anything that remotely even looks like violence that you get tossed out of school for the smallest of infractions that involve any "violence" with violence being defined as even just saying the wrong thing.

No..I disagree..its not the only thing it can rest on.

And Chaz..Im sorry..you must have tunnel vision.."look at schools".???Last I checked..schools still promote and in fact encourage and glorify at least one display /demonstration of violence in the name of 'sports".

Last I checked..football for one ..isnt just "remotely" violent..its so violent that it puts the boys at risk of definately minor..all the way to severe even deadly injuries.And thats all in the spirit of "competition and entertainment".

So great is the fear?...I dont think so Chaz..

Dallas
 
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mkgal1

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I already explained all I was looking for , a simple "oh thats a bad thing lets try and understand it better"....the underlined being a simple acknowledgement that there is something bugging men.

So.....now.....whats the agenda of women so dogged in refuting this.

You all truly lack courage ifyou dont answer that. NONE of the things said so far answer it, and NO romans, its not that I dislike the answer....it has not been answered period

The question is again


why are men less motivated to go to church than women?

Pointing to what they do instead of church is not an answer.

Its a simple question.
And I know I have personally answered it several times. For one....I have said (and shown census reports)...that there are less men on earth than women (over age 24). IF there are less men alive....then certainly that is going to show up in stats. Men and women ARE NOT alive and on earth in equal numbers.

I am not denying that something is "bugging men". Clearly....you and Chaz are "bugged" by something. You are both men....so, there is NO denying that some men are bugged. That it can be summed up that it is a general issue with the church being feminized....and even what "feminized" even means....is what I personally take issue with and am questioning.



well anyway

the reason you wont answer the question clearly and in basic form, is that the answer is to admit there may be a problem means youd have tp let go of your spiritual superiority complex.


Women are on a Christian high horse. Big Time!

Im glad this came up again and went as long as it did....goodness it cannot get clearer.

Anyway.....on to the important stuff
You and Chaz are the ones making this about gender (as usual). PEOPLE that are in church ARE more spiritually minded. That doesn't mean that they are more "superior".....the ones that are NOT in church have the same opportunity....their mind (and heart) just isn't there. It is a choice. We all are able to choose our priorities.

That is NOT the same as being spiritually superior..Chaz.I think it boils down to social conditioning..girls are EXPECTED to have more patience..as well as they are MORE LIKELY to be expected to serve others or have female role models who are serving others in their day to day life.
I think this really sums up the entire issue. Men are expected to be the main bread winners....that causes them to be more focused on career and finances. That is where there energy goes. Women are more conditioned to be about family and the values of the household. That is where their energy goes. It all comes down to conditioning and what is expected. It has nothing to do with inherent virtues and superiority...IMO.

[/quote=Dallas;554443333663]Just look at the schools Chaz..by FAR the role model of "teacher" is female.The teacher is a female and she is expected to have 'patience" and she does..Then its far MORE likely at home as well..its the mother /female..in the more sacrificial role(in a VISIBLE way on a regular basis) in the home..As well as discipline?..Its not TOLEREATED at all if a the girl acts out aggressivley.Never has been because girls just simply arent supposed to act like that..Doesnt matter that they have the same impulses..they are TRAINED to control it..Boys on the other hand..all be it will get in trouble..its more of a "well you can EXPECT THAT" from a boy..there is still an attitude..sort of an "out" ..of ..well thats not right..BUT ..boys will be boys..

Thats not "spiritual superiority"..its training.Girls are trained to be more disciplined in GENERAL..I guess her "out" is..she is then encouraged or more likely to be allowed ..to express her frustrations/emotions by CRYING...

Anyway you can say ..that I THINK I have a "spiritual superiority complex" over ALL men becasue Im a female all you want..But thats a lie..and I dont have to believe you ..so in a nutshell it matters NOT what you think I believe about myself.

Dallas[/quote]
Agree.....absolutely. :amen:
The thing about school is a good example, its also unfriendly to boys.

The whole expectations thing in both places aligns more with females, even if its a discipline needed to do it, its less natural for males.

So in many ways the school shares the issue with the church. And the effects of it for schools are not being admitted its a problem either, as males fall by the wayside in higher education. NOT seen as a problem.
I agree that the schools have the same problem as churches. I don't think we agree on WHAT the problem is, though. I think it is that the schools (and the churches) have gotten away from traditional ways of passing down information and facts to progressive education being the way. The "learning by doing" method and following instincts. By following instincts....we are slipping further and further away from truth.

The part you are missing Chaz...is Im not saying INHERENTLY..Im trying to say its encouraged/learned ....those traits/behaviors are EXPECTED and taught more to girls than boys..contrary to agression and violence..is encouraged/taught and expected out of BOYS..

And again Chaz..you can go on claiming that Im saying women are spiritually superior to men..and I'll keep saying that you are a liar.Because thats flat out what you are doing here...Lying.

Dallas
Again......agreed.
 
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mkgal1

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Here are the 7 virtues and how I personally feel they "balance out" between the genders.

  1. Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!). - Male/Female
  2. Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail. Female
  3. Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others. Female
  4. Fortitude is never giving up. Male
  5. Justice is being fair and equitable with others. Male
  6. Prudence is care of and moderation with money. Male/Female
  7. Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed. Male/Female
I disagree with this too. I also feel all these virtues are applicable equally to men and women. To assign them to specific genders.....IMO....lowers the bar to the other gender in that area. We should ALL allow God to transform us in each of these areas.

Each of us.....man and woman...inherently is born sinful. It isn't on our own that we are virtuous.....it is ONLY through Christ.
 
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FaithPrevails

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I disagree with this too. I also feel all these virtues are applicable equally to men and women. To assign them to specific genders.....IMO....lowers the bar to the other gender in that area. We should ALL allow God to transform us in each of these areas.

Each of us.....man and woman...inherently is born sinful. It isn't on our own that we are virtuous.....it is ONLY through Christ.

I never said that we don't both possess these virtues. My "assignment" was merely to show which ones I think come more easily to men or women and which ones seem to be equally inherent.

Yes, it is only through Christ that we are free of our sinful nature. BUT... that doesn't mean that we aren't born with some level of inclination towards these virtuous behaviors. If that were the case, why would we ever seek out a higher power at all?
 
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dallasapple

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So let me ask this. Are you suggesting that ALL behavior/trait differences between the genders are completely due to conditioning and what they are taught?

The way my mind is wrapping around it..there ARENT any different "traits" between males and females to start with..All we are is how we BEHAVE in response to our enviroment..

And the differences in "typical behavior" between the genders in response to the enviroment..is learned..

Males may be taught certain things in a certain enviroment and females alike as in how to behave in response to the enviroment based on physical differences.

Most of how I behave Chaz is not 'instinctual"..and any of my typical "female behavior" is learned..I believe any of my "instinctual " behavior would be a HUMAN instinct shared by both genders.Such as sourcing out food and eating it as an example...How though I go about sourcing it out is LEARNED..in my current enviroment and how I've been taught and conditioned to do so.In my case is find a way to aquire an American $ and go to Tom Thumb or Kroger and buy it.(food)...Because thats the way the society I live in operates..

If I lived in a differnt society..I may have to alter my behavior..and litterally go out and "hunt" for food in nature..

But neither one of those behaviors is a "male or female trait" that I posses inherently because Im a specific gender.Its a behvior Im taught .

Dallas
 
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chaz345

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And I know I have personally answered it several times. For one....I have said (and shown census reports)...that there are less men on earth than women (over age 24). IF there are less men alive....then certainly that is going to show up in stats. Men and women ARE NOT alive and on earth in equal numbers.

But that difference is not even close to same magnitude as the gender disparity in church. It's at most 2 or 3 percentage points. That' according to the data that you posted. Not only that but the gender disparity in church attendance is only an issue in the American and to degree western church. If it were due to population then we'd see it across all cultures and religions. We don't though so that simply is not the cause.
 
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