Any thoughts on how this plays out in the marriage relationship?

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OneManSows

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Exegesis of I Timothy 2 with Emphasis on Women in the Church

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/HenningTimothy.pdf

....... Many have left the applied such methods teaching of the verbal inspiration of Holy Scripture and have applied such methods of interpretation as the historical-critical method. With such efforts they try to justify their changes in doctrine and practice.

One social change has affected the life of the church in the role of women. In the various societies from which modern America has developed the woman has been traditionally .....



(The article is rather lengthy, and I am not intending to limit my question to what is quoted, but rather I intend the question to address the whole article, and each of the points made by it's author.)
 

FaithPrevails

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It's late, I'm tired, and the article is long/smallish print. So, I'm going to state my response as simply as possible.

How the view of women in the church and their "appropriate roles" in church play out in a marriage is pretty simple. A couple either has a shared view or they don't. If they do, then it's a moot issue. If they don't, then there are probably going to be some marital issues.
 
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Romanseight2005

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You won't get many people reading it because it's so long. I did read it though, and while he spends a lot of time explaining his take on history, his scriptural analysis was conveniently cut short.
For instance, he quoted this part of scripture...1 Cor 11:8-12
8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man . 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

While conveniently leaving this out........

11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
NKJV

This commentator seems to be saying that because Eve came out of Adam, she must learn from him. Ironically though, God also designed it so the woman teaches EVERY other man after Adam. Every man, including Jesus not only comes from the woman as his source, but is taught by her, from his foundation. As this man mentioned earlier in his commentary, women have traditionally raised the children. Think about what that means. Let's even go back as far as the OT. Look at the Patriarch men who had multiple wives. Do you think that those dad's were a part of their son's lives? Perhaps when they reached a certain age, but for the most part, those boys were taught by women. The commentator's point is moot.
 
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OneManSows

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You won't get many people reading it because it's so long. I did read it though, and while he spends a lot of time explaining his take on history, his scriptural analysis was conveniently cut short.
For instance, he quoted this part of scripture...1 Cor 11:8-12
8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man . 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

While conveniently leaving this out........

11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
NKJV

This commentator seems to be saying that because Eve came out of Adam, she must learn from him. Ironically though, God also designed it so the woman teaches EVERY other man after Adam. Every man, including Jesus not only comes from the woman as his source, but is taught by her, from his foundation. As this man mentioned earlier in his commentary, women have traditionally raised the children. Think about what that means. Let's even go back as far as the OT. Look at the Patriarch men who had multiple wives. Do you think that those dad's were a part of their son's lives? Perhaps when they reached a certain age, but for the most part, those boys were taught by women. The commentator's point is moot.

I think it should be pointed out that he did in fact reference Galatians 3:27,28;

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There
is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for Ye are all one in
Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:27-28).

and he addresses the equality issue later in his article.

I heard or read something the other day which, in the context of this discussion, seems to make some sense to me. Christ is subordinate to the Father. It does not make Him less than equal, but there is a hierarchy observed in the Godhead. This hierarchy provides for good order. It establishes the pecking order in the trinity. Christ yields to the Father in all things, and it helps to define the function of each. So too women, who are equal to men in Christ, according to I Corinthians 11, and Galatians 3, and who have a specific role, should be like Christ as he yields to the Father, and yield to the leadership of men. This being done in observance of what Paul communicates on behalf of God in I Corinthians 11. Paul writes the following.
 
26What then, brothers (ἀδελφοί)? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
 
"The plural Greek word adelphoi (translated "brothers") refers to siblings in a family. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, adelphoi may refer either to men or to both men and women who are siblings (brothers and sisters) in God’s family."

Here, there appears to be a constrast between what men are to do, and what women are to do, as he seemingly instructs first the brothers, then the sisters, then the brothers again. It is open for debate, but clearly that is a viable interpretation. And this would be totally consistent with the concept of equality, yet division of responsibility, which is also seen in the Godhead.

Further, this prohibition is the total silence prohibition on women, as contrasted with the quietness command in I Timothy 2. So in one book, I Timothy, there is the directive for submission both in demeanor and rank; while in the other, there is the command for absolute silence, with the point being made that this is not just a directive for the Corinthian church, but for all churches.
 
Paul finishes the section with a strong rebuke and an exhortation.

38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But all things should be done decently and in order."

Even if it conceded that brothers refers to all believers, the command for absolute silence of all women in all churches must be addressed as something referring to more than an incident or incidents confined to the Corinthian church.

I would also add, that your comments regarding the raising of children contains in the question the very answer to your objection. The prohibition of women teaching or having authority over men is just that, a prohibition concerning men, not children. Children are not men, and the prohibition doesn't apply to children. The author went to great lengths to differentiate between the two.

It has been suggested that for a clear view of how it worked in Jesus' day, "one need look no further than the wedding feast, where Mary tried to ascert authority over Jesus. Jesus rebuked her, using the universal term "woman" γύναι. It is the same root word that is used in scripture as representative for the universal term, "a woman" γυναικὶ, in I Timothy 2. Christ communicated he was no longer under her authority, and would not be told by her what to do, being an adult male, and having set aside the use of his own personal divine authority while on earth."
 
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Romanseight2005

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But that's just it, age seems to be the issue. First of all, a woman ruling over a male child, is still her asserting authority over a male. So age seems to be the whole thing. This is relevant because often in the OT especially, older men took young females to be their brides. In other words, you had men old enough to be the father or grandfather of the bride. This is huge. If a 35 year old is marrying a 12 year old, it would make sense that the older would parent the younger. However, when people of the same age marry. the dynamic is not the same. Also, Jesus was the King of Kings, and His response to his mother was not how a man should respond to his mother because the circumstances were completely unique. Also. He did in the end do as his mother requested of him.
 
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Luther073082

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Can anyone give me an outline what he is claiming the gender roles are, because I'm not going to read that whole article.

The thing is that I generally agree with confessional Lutherans (which I'm guessing thats where this guy is.) on gender roles. But I disagree with a lot of conservative evangelicals on gender roles.

However there are some Lutherans that are wannabe evangelicals so it would help me answer if I knew where he was comming from.

Although this guy is probably WELS and they tend to be a bit more extreme about the gender roles then we do in the LCMS.
 
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chaz345

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Do you think that those dad's were a part of their son's lives? Perhaps when they reached a certain age, but for the most part, those boys were taught by women.

Actually a lot of societies throughout history and even today have a age where there is sort of a "hand off" of parenting responsibility for male children. It's interesting to note too that those societies, by and large, have a lot less strife between the genders than we seem to have here in the western industrialized world. Men have a much more clear and full and balanced picture of what's expected of them.
 
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Conservativation

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Actually a lot of societies throughout history and even today have a age where there is sort of a "hand off" of parenting responsibility for male children. It's interesting to note too that those societies, by and large, have a lot less strife between the genders than we seem to have here in the western industrialized world. Men have a much more clear and full and balanced picture of what's expected of them.

Chaz, I confess I cannot follow this post at all, im sorry...

The last sentence though I see some truth in regardless of the rest, in that it doesnt seem like we have much if any strife that originates in the idea that men are struggling to define their roles. If and when you find men actually struggling to define their roles, its because they have been pushed out of their role and are searching for relevance.

(I will wait for the very predictable way in which my post will be interpreted)
 
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chaz345

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Chaz, I confess I cannot follow this post at all, im sorry...

The last sentence though I see some truth in regardless of the rest, in that it doesnt seem like we have much if any strife that originates in the idea that men are struggling to define their roles. If and when you find men actually struggling to define their roles, its because they have been pushed out of their role and are searching for relevance.

(I will wait for the very predictable way in which my post will be interpreted)

Really? You don't see a lot of our gender issues as being related to the fat that guys have no idea what's expected of them? Or the fact that contradictory things are expected of us?
 
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chaz345

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Men shouldn't be looking for roles, they should know their roles, and their roles stink anyway, because women are way better.

Was that any use?

it wasn't any use, and it may not be what you believe, but it is what more than a few people, both men and women believe.
 
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FaithPrevails

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Men shouldn't be looking for roles, they should know their roles, and their roles stink anyway, because women are way better.

Was that any use?

Girls rule, boys drool! :ebil:


Seriously, though. Men don't know their roles if they aren't being taught by their elders (father, grandfather, uncles, etc). Which is often the case in our divorce-prevelant society. Men are absentee either by choice or forcibly so. So, boys are not being as readily/consistently exposed to what it looks like to be a man, IMO.

JMHO
 
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mkgal1

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Really? You don't see a lot of our gender issues as being related to the fat that guys have no idea what's expected of them? Or the fact that contradictory things are expected of us?
That's a fact? That guys "have no idea what's expected of them"? They only have to please One....and the way I see it...it has been clearly laid out in the Bible.

What is contradictory that is expected of you (or men in general)?
 
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chaz345

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That's a fact? That guys "have no idea what's expected of them"? They only have to please One....and the way I see it...it has been clearly laid out in the Bible.

What is contradictory that is expected of you (or men in general)?

Lead but only in the exact way that she(not necessarily the Bible) defines or you are accused of being controlling. IOW, step up, no wait that's not the right way, sit back down again, oh why can't you step up and be a man. Sounds crazy but that's the exact message that guys get today.


But if it's so clearly laid out in the Bible, please enlighten us. How about a list of 4 or 5 specific action steps as to what exactly is expected of men. Not general principles but actual "do this" types of things. It's not all that clear, and given that thanks to divorce a huge percentage of men never saw it modeled in daily life, yes it is a fact that many are clueless as to what's expected of them. There is a HUGE difference between reading it in the Bible in general principle types of terms and seeing it lived out on a daily basis. Yes it can be done just from the Bible but it's a whole heck of a lot harder.

I know you'd prefer to beleive that the huge number of men who are failing is due to their choice or them being somehow inferior but that's just not the case. It goes well beyond men simply choosing not to do the right thing. Many don't know what the right thing really looks like. Sure I know you are likely thinking "look to Jesus". Good and true and of course correct. But which Jesus? ALL of the one from the Bible, the table tipping one as well as the foot washing one? Or, as I suspect, would you have us model ourselves after the neutered Jesus of today's Church?
 
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mkgal1

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Lead but only in the exact way that she(not necessarily the Bible) defines or you are accused of being controlling. IOW, step up, no wait that's not the right way, sit back down again, oh why can't you step up and be a man. Sounds crazy but that's the exact message that guys get today.
Then, "guys"....IMO....should be listening to someone else. That's what I meant by "audience of One".....there isn't any contradiction then.
 
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mkgal1

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I know you'd prefer to beleive that the huge number of men who are failing is due to their choice or them being somehow inferior but that's just not the case. It goes well beyond men simply choosing not to do the right thing. Many don't know what the right thing really looks like. Sure I know you are likely thinking "look to Jesus". Good and true and of course correct. But which Jesus? ALL of the one from the Bible, the table tipping one as well as the foot washing one? Or, as I suspect, would you have us model ourselves after the neutered Jesus of today's Church?
Chaz......you obviously do NOT know WHAT I believe, so you cannot say what I "prefer" to believe. It has nothing to do with "inferiority". Choices, though.....yes, but it isn't about mirroring behavior.....it is about having a relationship with God, through the Holy Spirit. There is only one Jesus....and all of His behavior lines up with His attributes.

The last comment, BTW.....I am reporting.
 
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mkgal1

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It's not all that clear, and given that thanks to divorce a huge percentage of men never saw it modeled in daily life, yes it is a fact that many are clueless as to what's expected of them. There is a HUGE difference between reading it in the Bible in general principle types of terms and seeing it lived out on a daily basis. Yes it can be done just from the Bible but it's a whole heck of a lot harder.
We--not just men, but ALL of us....are given ALL we need in order to be in obedience of God. I'm looking for a specific verse that says this promise, but for one.....

"And I will give you a new heart -- I will give you new and right desires -- and put a new spirit within you. I will take out your stony hearts of sin and give you new hearts of love. And I will put my Spirit within you so that you will obey my laws and do whatever I command." Ezekial 36: 26-27 TLB

I posted the other day that the Bible only makes sense to those that have the Holy Spirit leading them....so, it isn't JUST reading the Bible.
 
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dallasapple

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I wonder just what people mean with comments like that. (Neutered) People, including the church, get their opinion of Jesus based upon the Holy Scriptures. So just what attributes do you see as, "nuetered," Chaz?

I agree..Im curious too..When I think of "neutering" its my male dogs and cats..and thats so they dont run around trying to hump everything that moves..and I dont think Jesus ever acted that way..so Im wondering which Biblical based teaching of Jesus would be the UN-NEUTERED version of Jesus..

Yeah thats the question what does an "un-neutered" opinion/teaching of Jesus sound/look like..????

I know one thing for sure..I've noticed some people around here that sure as heck seem to need a lot of the "sympathetic" Jesus as far as other people being "Jesus like" towards them and their reactions to them and their sin..I wonder if thats the "neutered" version...?

hmm...

Dallas
 
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