Any previous Catholics here?

[Angeldove97]

After nearly 20 years, I'm discerning that Christ is calling me out of the Catholic Church. The last 5+ years have left me feeling empty, unable to fulfill the "requirements" to be a Good Christian, and ignored - as a wife in a wonderful marriage, but no children (I've talked to priests about ministries for married folk, who God hasn't blessed with children and no one seems to be aware of a ministry for us). I'm tired of trying to bring myself to heaven by checking off all the requirements - a lot of that probably something I've put on myself and I'm listening to the wrong type of priests that teach we need to do X,Y,Z to get to heaven. I'm finding out that what I've believed for this whole time/a long time actually goes against Catholic beliefs (specifically I'm a believer in consubstantiation instead of transubstantiation, I just didn't know that was a thing). I'm tired of denying Christians a holy marriage and the chance for a family. I'm excited about the prospect of deaconesses in the church, while I still hold to roles between men and women in the church. I'm excited about Christ coming down to us to help us better understand our sinner and saint lives. I'm tired of hearing priests tell me if I do X, I will most certainly end up in heaven, but my faith tells me that isn't what Christ wants for me.

This discernment has led me to the Lutheran Church, which I've been dipping my toes in a bit - watching services (liturgy? not sure about the terminology yet) online, reading (I finished "Why I'm a Lutheran: Jesus at the Center" and I'm starting "The Spirituality of the Cross". I'm still not certain about giving up the rosary, as I love my Spiritual Mother, but I know those actions aren't going to add to my salvation. But I am excited about staying focused on Christ instead of "what saint are we celebrating today" - once again, that isn't fair towards the Catholic Church, just where I am at this point. Yesterday I ordered Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions-A Reader's Edition of the Book of Concord - 2nd edition and the Lutheran Bible Companion Set to continue my studies and understandings. I feel like I need a better understanding of what was happening during the Reformation and how this faith grew out from the Catholic Church.

My Facebook conversations have led me to see that there are a lot of previous Catholics who have joined the Lutheran Church, so I wanted to see if this community is similar. I know I still have to actually GO to a Lutheran church and talk to a pastor, but I want to make sure I know why I'm doing this with Christ, hence, I'm continuing to discern (and I'll admit it is also due to social anxiety of meeting new people in an environment I know so little about). I would love to know more about how your discernment period looked like, what steps did you go through, and any resources you might recommend for a lady looking for where God is calling her.

 

[pdudgeon]

What my discernment journey looked like, was a search backwards, to the beginning of the Church.
It began many years ago, while I was a Methodist.
They had some good points, but I noted that they had wandered away from their original beliefs, and were changing into becoming more like the World, and less like Christ and the disciples.
And that search first led me to the Episcopal Church, and from there to the Word of Faith, and then finally to the Catholic Church.
It was not ( and still is not) an easy journey, but I feel that I am on the right track.
Thanks for asking!

 

[Daniel9v9]

Hey, thank you for sharing and for considering the Lutheran Church. While I don't have a Roman Catholic background, I also became Lutheran later in life, so I can perhaps relate to your journey in some ways. Now I have the joy of serving in the Lutheran Church and I'm always glad to help if I may be of service.

The books you've bought are fantastic, and I'm confident you'll receive them with the joy and comfort of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God's blessings to you!

 

[Markie Boy]

I am in a similar spot - having left Catholicism and seeing Lutheranism as much closer to truth.

When I started to learn the actual roots of many of the things that are Dogma - must be believed or you are out of the Catholic Church - many of them have no root in Scripture or early church history. We should honor and respect Mary - but Catholicism has taken the Marian teachings to levels that are just do not have support anywhere. The Assumption of Mary - zero scripture, zero testimony in the first 350-400 years. I watched a debate between several Catholics and a Baptist, and the Catholics actually admitted there was really no evidence of the Assumption - they can't even declare if she died first or not - yet believed it was true because it was defined by Papal Infallibility, which itself was not defined until 1870.

I know some wonderful Catholic people. But the institution is built on itself being equal to Scripture - yet when it's at odds with Scripture, you are to submit to the authority of the RCC.

All of Rome's claims come down to if the Papacy is true. To determine that I read a book by a Catholic author - the Early Papacy to the Council of Chalcedon, along with multiple other sources. At the time I was struggling to be Catholic as it was the easier path to stay in harmony with family. I hoped that book would help. It gave a fairly honest view of history, and proved at best the Orthodox position - nothing like what we see today.

People joke about Catholic guilt - even our local deacon does. But it's all too real, and it does bad things to people's heads - I have been there. I could never go back.

I would recommend any youtube videos by pastor Bryan Wolfmueller or Jordan Cooper - I enjoy them very much. God Bless you - it's not an easy journey I know. But once you are out, the freedom is amazing, it's just where to next.

 

[tampasteve]

Yes, they call the service the Mass, Divine Service, or just Liturgy. The typical Lutheran liturgy will be very familiar to you if you are used to a NO Mass, you should have no trouble adapting at all.


While I am not currently a member of the Lutheran Church, I do hold it and its teachings in high regard. I think of myself somewhere between Lutheran and Reformed spirituality, which is not as strange as it sounds, there is much common ground.

I was originally ND/Baptist but converted to the RCC after much consideration. I won't bore you with the full story of why I left in the first place, but I will say that at this time I cannot see returning. There is much to admire of the RCC, but they are also in need of a Reformation.

I get the idea that veneration is not worship, I get it - but come on, we have all seen (either in person or otherwise) the worship of Mary that is going on, not to mention other saints. You can't tell me that when I see thousands of people bowing down to a statue of Mary, crowning it with a gold crown and laying flowers at and under the statue that I am not seeing worship. Everything about it screams worship. If the Bishops spoke out against it I would applaud that and it would be a different story, but they are either silent or supportive, or facilitating it. I understand that the teachings and the belief of veneration is not worship, but that does not mean that what is actually happening is the same thing.

As may be evident, this veneration issue is a primary block for me. I take the possibility of idolatry very seriously.

I don't regret my time in the RCC, I celebrate it. I met some really great people there and was blessed to have some really wonderful men as priests....but in the end it just cannot work for me, but theologically or personally.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While I was never RCC, I do have a background in a strongly "works-as-evidence" based notions of spirituality and Christianity. Where I experienced primarily guilt and shame and the feeling that I couldn't please God and, therefore, would be outside of His love and grace if I didn't perform better.

It was a long windy twisty road that brought me to the Lutheran tradition. I had been raised thinking that Lutherans, Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and other "high church" sorts were "spiritually dead", lacking the Holy Spirit, and were all "fuddy duddy" sorts. But by the grace of God I began to learn more about the early Church, the history of Christianity, began to see the ways God had been faithful throughout the history of Christianity to His Church.

But, as I like to put it, I tripped and fell over backward into Lutheranism. It was the simple and pure teaching of the Cross that was a significant "wow" moment for me. Christ has done it all, God forgives me, my sins are forgiven. Words and ideas which, of course I had heard in some form or another growing up, but it was the simplicity of this, the fact that it wasn't also connected to "and now you need to do X, Y, and Z", there was no "God did His part, now you need to do your part". It was just the Gospel, the pure sweet simple Gospel.

I didn't have any real knowledge of Lutheran theology at the time, didn't really understand how the Sacraments fit in. But that all came with time, with study, talking with Lutherans, and just hearing the word preached at church.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, and may you be strengthened and aided by the Holy Spirit daily, as no matter whether you find your home here or elsewhere, that you find rest and comfort in the word of the Savior and of the great and immeasurable and unconquerable love of God which He has for you in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Markie Boy]

On one hand I agree, nobody tells you to worship Mary or saints as another god.

On the other, I read some of St. Louis de Montfort's book on Mary, and some of the statements are off the rails, saying things like all grace comes thru Mary, and she has power over all Heaven, and there were more. And pretty much all the clergy speak of that book as "the book" on Mary. This is just one quote I copied:
"Mary has the authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven."

For me it was just a mess I'd rather avoid.

 

[Daniel9v9]

(STAFF EDITED- DELETED QUOTE)

Seeing as you're posting in the Lutheran forum, let me challenge you with the fact that none of the Apostolic Fathers knows anything of prayers to Mary, saints, or angels. It's not in the Scriptures and it's not in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. This shows us that prayers to Mary, saints, and angels are a later development. Now, in the Roman Catholic System, I understand that this isn't a problem. But if we hold to the Holy Scriptures as our supreme authority, then we can know that there is no command, promise, or example of prayers to anyone other than God for those who are in Christ. This is the apostolic teaching. So if you want to appeal to history, this is good to recognise.

 

[Daniel9v9]

(STAFF EDITED- DELETED QUOTE)

Sure, that would be at the Reformation. If you're interested in the formal debate between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church on this topic, I can recommend reading our Confessions (Article XXI (IX): Worship of the Saints)

The Augsburg Confession – Luco
The Apology – Luco

 

[Shane R]

Western liturgical worship traditionally spanned a spectrum across the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches. I would argue the Reformed traditions sort of split the difference between liturgical and not. Part of the liturgical ethos is some kind of view that sacraments are efficacious and needful: sacraments rather than ordinances to be occasionally observed.

In any case, as the world opened up and it was easier to see what other churches were doing, it became fairly obvious that the transition in worship life was not steep. And really, religion is more devotional and experiential than intellectual for most people. I knew many Lutherans when I regularly worshipped at Lutheran churches who had comfortable transitioned from Roman Catholicism. I will say, they were not typically interested in 'Evangelical Catholicism' as I believe the trendy term is for the Lutherans who parallel, in practice, Anglo-Catholic Anglicans.

 

[FaithT]

I’m a former Catholic. Welcome!

 

[Angeldove97]

Sharing an update.... Accidently "spilled the beans" sharing a cat picture where I had one of my Lutheran books in the background on Facebook. My ever observant (and loving) Mother in Law saw the book and quickly asked me what that was about. (My MIL and I adore one another and I see her as a spiritual guide and sister in Christ.) So I poured it out and explained how I was continuing to write my love story with Christ and He has been leading me else where. A month later, I saw my in laws face-to-face and my MIL wanted all the details (I told her I was writing my own thesis which she is eager to read) and my FIL guided me with wisdom that while he has been Catholic for a very long time, he's focused on becoming more Christ-like and less worried about the "details". I feel like this is still a hard announcement for him, while he consoled me telling me how much he loves me and how proud he is of me. In a separate conversation, he mentioned how the next time there's an event at the cathedral how we should.... and he stopped. It was an odd time to talk, but I would have told him, I will still attend Mass with him. I still love the Eucharist and how God calls us to worship in such a way. My in-laws were also eager to hear what my husband, also Catholic, was planning to do, but he is much more "chill" about such things and he said he would attend with me, but he doesn't feel called to leave the Catholic Church.

My own parents don't care much about my faith, so it's fine whatever happens with them. My in-laws have been much more the elders who I care what they "think" when it comes to faith related parts of my life. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Angeldove97]

I will say, they were not typically interested in 'Evangelical Catholicism' as I believe the trendy term is for the Lutherans who parallel, in practice, Anglo-Catholic Anglicans.

Can you explain this further for me? I'm not necessarily familiar with the terms.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Western liturgical worship traditionally spanned a spectrum across the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches. I would argue the Reformed traditions sort of split the difference between liturgical and not. Part of the liturgical ethos is some kind of view that sacraments are efficacious and needful: sacraments rather than ordinances to be occasionally observed.

In any case, as the world opened up and it was easier to see what other churches were doing, it became fairly obvious that the transition in worship life was not steep. And really, religion is more devotional and experiential than intellectual for most people. I knew many Lutherans when I regularly worshipped at Lutheran churches who had comfortable transitioned from Roman Catholicism. I will say, they were not typically interested in 'Evangelical Catholicism' as I believe the trendy term is for the Lutherans who parallel, in practice, Anglo-Catholic Anglicans.

Dr. Gene Veith used the use the term Evangelical Catholic in at least one of his books, and i would describe him as "main line" Missouri Synod. In the classical meanings of these terms, "Biblical Catholics".

An "unofficial" group within the LCMS and other Confessional Synods called "Gottesdeinst". Bottom line is if it falls withing the Rubrics of our approved service books, past and present, it is just Lutheran. As it says in the forward of the 1941 "The Lutheran Hymnal" there is enough latitude for the the liturgy to be as simple or as complex as congregations require. There are still some Churches who have gone beyond the rubrics and restored some very pre-reformation aspects of the Catholic Mass. These would be more liturgically aligned with Anglo-Catholicism.

The video below, produced by Gottesdienst shows what actually does fall within the Rubrics of our Liturgies.

 

[tampasteve]

My in-laws were also eager to hear what my husband, also Catholic, was planning to do, but he is much more "chill" about such things and he said he would attend with me, but he doesn't feel called to leave the Catholic Church.

The only potential problem is that the Lutheran Divine service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation for Catholics....so, if he wishes to remain in good graces he would still need to attend Saturday evening or another time on Sunday.

 

[FaithT]

Dr. Gene Veith used the use the term Evangelical Catholic in at least one of his books, and i would describe him as "main line" Missouri Synod. In the classical meanings of these terms, "Biblical Catholics".

An "unofficial" group within the LCMS and other Confessional Synods called "Gottesdeinst". Bottom line is if it falls withing the Rubrics of our approved service books, past and present, it is just Lutheran. As it says in the forward of the 1941 "The Lutheran Hymnal" there is enough latitude for the the liturgy to be as simple or as complex as congregations require. There are still some Churches who have gone beyond the rubrics and restored some very pre-reformation aspects of the Catholic Mass. These would be more liturgically aligned with Anglo-Catholicism.

The video below, produced by Gottesdienst shows what actually does fall within the Rubrics of our Liturgies.

My Lutheran church is very contemporary and we don’t have a Catholic-like liturgy.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The only potential problem is that the Lutheran Divine service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation for Catholics....so, if he wishes to remain in good graces he would still need to attend Saturday evening or another time on Sunday.

No offense Steve. Just a reminder that this is the Lutheran Forum.

 

[FaithT]

No offense Steve. Just a reminder that this is the Lutheran Forum.

I think a Lutheran church down the road a little ways has Saturday services but mine doesn’t.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

My Lutheran church is very contemporary and we don’t have a Catholic-like liturgy.

While many Churches have gone with contemporary worship, the pattern of Liturgical worship is scriptural and was lain out for God's people in God's word. Our confessions maintain that this is the way the Church has, does and should continue to worship; and is done for continuity and good order. I would find it troubling were I to walk into you Church and find nothing familiar (we have some churches here in Canada who's doors I will not pass through as well). I am truly sorry that your congregation is unable to share in the rich, historical liturgical worship that is part of the heritage of the continuing Church.

 

[FaithT]

While many Churches have gone with contemporary worship, the pattern of Liturgical worship is scriptural and was lain out for God's people in God's word. Our confessions maintain that this is the way the Church has, does and should continue to worship; and is done for continuity and good order. I would find it troubling were I to walk into you Church and find nothing familiar (we have some churches here in Canada who's doors I will not pass through as well). I am truly sorry that your congregation is unable to share in the rich, historical liturgical worship that is part of the heritage of the continuing Church.

Not me. I’m not sorry at all. If I wanted a Catholic-like liturgy I would’ve remained Catholic.