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Any former Roman Catholics here?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Light of the East, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Jesus4Madrid

    Jesus4Madrid Orthodox Christian

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    Why does it seem that Roman Catholics downplay the differences between their doctrines and those of Orthodoxy?
     
  2. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater AgnusDei,qui tollis peccata mundi,dona nobis pacem Supporter

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    Because the great majority of the differences origins from different theological understanding of the role of the bishop of Rome.
    This office has articulated doctrine that diverge from that of that orthodox church in many cases.

    There are obvious differences however and there's no reason to downplay them, but some orthodox goes extreme and make it seem as if Catholics are equal to Muslims or pagans which is not coherent with the official line from Constantinople nor Moscow.
     
  3. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 auto-correct iPhone survivor

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    It's simple J4, they have no answer for us. They broke away from real Catholicism---Orthodoxy. After having done so, they've marginalized the groups that broke off from them. They delegitimized the Anglican Church with stuff like the Nag's Head Fable and tried to claim they had no apostolic succession. They delegitimized the Lutherans and other groups because they lack holy orders or don't have this or don't have that. But with Orthodoxy there is a massive body of people who are LITERALLY more Catholic than the Pope who have a far superior liturgy, the venerable theology of leavened bread, powerful saints, awesome pure theology unspoiled by scholastics and modernists, undisputed apostolic succession, and everything they have only in spades and unspoiled. What do you do about that?

    Catholics believe without the pope you can't maintain the Church and have cohesion, the majesty of the holy mysteries unmolested, and a pure theology or liturgy. They think everything outside of the papacy is defective and collapsed.....and then there is the fly in the ointment----Holy Orthodoxy.

    How do you claim those defect arguments and explain Orthodoxy? The only way is to downplay things and have a quick drive-by approach to the East.

     
  4. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 auto-correct iPhone survivor

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    What you guys call the "Photian Schism" was the beginning of the end. It's definitely about the papacy, but really those papal claims were the final straw in a string of strained relations. Orthodoxy was held to Catholicism with dental floss for centuries. The forced celibacy on clergy, the unleavened hosts, the increase in legalism, the filioque, and a host of other problems were already smoldering.

    St. John Damascene calls Islam a Christian heresy. It is an evil religion influenced by the demonic. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says point blank that Islam shares the one God with Catholicism and that they're first in line for salvation after Catholics pretty much. It elevates something we see as deeply defective and evil to something not that far off from the Truth. We don't believe Catholics are equal to Muslims, but Catholics are supposed to believe Muslims are pretty darn close.

     
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It is certainly a common theme that Catholics often downplay, don't acknowledge, or perhaps don't see our differences. For some it's literally a hill worth dying on ... they will argue quite vehemently about it.

    Orthodox on the other hand tend to acknowledge the differences. And perhaps sometimes we make a bigger matter of our differences if we fail to acknowledge what elements we have in common at the basis.

    But the truth is, we DO have differences, and while many of them might not affect the way folks live their faith, or think about salvation, some undoubtedly do.

    It's something of a hot-topic reactive button for many.

    I acknowledge any who claim Christ as brothers and sisters. After all, only God can judge.

    But the wholesale tendencies to either artificially deepen the distance, or to pretend we have none, are both dishonest to the faith.

    But it seems those points of view are hard to separate from some underlying questions, attitudes, and beliefs - and those are many. I really think those provide the motives (both mostly good and sometimes bad) for the way folks react. Those might be more valuable to discuss. I think they often create blind spots in our relations with others.
     
  6. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater AgnusDei,qui tollis peccata mundi,dona nobis pacem Supporter

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    Well Nostra Aetate is a disgrace, so no argue there. Islam is of Satan and has no objective part in the soteriology as we know it through scripture or the tradition.

    Christ may make exceptions and its for him to decide who's sheep's and who's goats on the final day. Islam and Islamic worship however is antichristian and demonic.
    Vatican ii betrayed all the martyrs giving their life for Christ facing the muslims.

    Again NA is a huge disgrace!
     
  7. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater AgnusDei,qui tollis peccata mundi,dona nobis pacem Supporter

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    And yes, there were many reasons as to why the east and the west grew in different directions in the centuries before the great schism.
    Filioque was that tip of the iceberg so to speak.
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    simply saying they are perceived definitely implies that there is nothing of substance behind them. for us, there is more to them than a simple perception. especially when you say we fool ourselves into thinking that. so for you, a guest, to come on here and tell us that the differences between us and Rome is not as much as we say it is, is pretty insulting. and it doesn't help you provided zero evidence for what you said.

    so I apologize for my snide comment, and I do, because it was out of line, but when someone says what you said about how we fool ourselves into how we view Rome, that does show an extreme ignorance of our history.

    my comment also had nothing to do with your beliefs, since you are neither RC or EO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  9. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    well, the toll houses actually affirm Christ's victory and the devil's loss. but it might be better to start this in another thread.
     
  10. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    because modern Popes do, in my opinion.
     
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  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    thanks!
     
  12. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    This is so true. My experience with this is that most of the eastern orthodox who do this are catechumens who convert from protestantism and I think they bring that trait with them from protestantism. They focus on the differences to the point of exclusion and I think we have seen that even in this thread. In my church we don't do that and we don't have really any converts who are not Armenian so I never really see that mindset from anyone in my church, but I have seen it quite a bit from non-cradle orthodox. When my cousins got married in the Greek Orthodox Church (to Greeks, cradle orthodox) we were not treated any way differently but then I go to an orthodox church in Nebraska where nobody is a cradle orthodox and the priest was borderline rude to me once he realized I was not EO.

    And I think that's why we see that kind of mindset more here in CF which mostly attracts westerners, so most EO here are converts who are of western origin, not cradle orthodox. I would bet that all the EO posting here with the exception of one or two are all converts. It's obvious to me based on my experience when someone is a convert.

    Your post sums it up quite well, thank you for posting it!
     
  13. Jesus4Madrid

    Jesus4Madrid Orthodox Christian

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    I’m not sure your theory is true that ex Protestants underscore differences with Roman Catholics more than cradle Orthodox. I have spoken to a number cradle Orthodox monks on Mt. Athos who showed little affinity for even dialogue with Roman Catholics.

    I think Army Matt’s explanation is more plausible: Roman Catholics have recently been whitewashing differences between the two churches due to modern Popes talking about the “two lungs” of Christianity. Remember than pre Vatican II, Orthodox were considered outside of salvation by dint of not belonging to the RCC.
     
  14. All4Christ

    All4Christ +The Handmaid of God Laura+ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    As someone who has family and friends that are not EO, I can say that our parish is extremely welcoming to non-Eastern Orthodox visitors. It is rare (I can’t think an example) for someone to visit and not have a bunch of people from the parish stop and talk to them, welcome them, etc. Many of us are converts.

    Every Church or group of Christians has good examples and bad examples - no one is perfect. It seems like you have experienced the opposite of what I have experienced, and what my non-Orthodox family and friends have expressed.
     
  15. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and I have never been to a thriving parish that was not welcoming to non-Orthodox. plus, as a chaplain candidate, I have had nothing but good relations with my non-Orthodox fellow chaplains. one of the best I spoke to and bounce ideas off of is an Orthodox Jew.
     
  16. All4Christ

    All4Christ +The Handmaid of God Laura+ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    One thing I will say (and this is not universal): Since many converts have thoroughly studied the beliefs of multiple churches before becoming Orthodox, they may be more aware of beliefs of various churches, so they may be able to articulate and understand non-EO beliefs better. Of course, there are many cradle Orthodox who are very familiar with teachings from non-Orthodox Christian churches. I don’t mean to imply that this is the case with everyone.

    This does not, however, mean that they are not welcoming. Knowing Eastern Orthodox beliefs in comparison to non-EO beliefs and being welcoming are two separate matters.
     
  17. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Had you tried to receive Holy Communion?
     
  18. Jesus4Madrid

    Jesus4Madrid Orthodox Christian

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    You are great a summarising lots of history. I suspect you could write a history of the Church in about 3 chapters. You should— it would be fascinating.

    I still don’t get why, after all that innovation on the RC side, they would then turn around and suggest that we are all the same (which RCs often do). If Orthodox are more catholic than the Bishop of Rome, then I should think they would see us as a threat and want to justify why they have innovated.
     
  19. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 auto-correct iPhone survivor

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    You're too kind, brother.

    Honestly, Orthodoxy for me was like God to St. Paul on the Road to Damascus. I tried to argue in favor of Catholicism against Orthodox posters at Catholic Answers Forum. I came up with stuff like, "yeah, well you guys are defective because y'all lack the papacy!" That argument fell flat. I tried the "well, Orthodox aren't truly CATHOLIC because they're not universal enough. They're hard to access." That argument was about as strong as Richard Simmons in a work-out video with Deal-a-Meal. I tried the, "yeah, well, they're too ethnic!" stuff. Dumb. I attempted the "the Pope saved the Church as the strongest opponent of every heresy." Cheese. I could go on with all the weak attempts at debate that I grasped at. But God knocked me off my horse, blinded me for a while, and restored my sight when I went to the Street Called Orthodox....now my spiritual sight is 20/20 despite being one heck of a foolish, weak sinner!

    Orthodoxy is an unbeatable religion in debate. There is no argument against Orthodoxy except thin polemical urine. There is no winning against the Truth. God was good to me humbling my weak arguments and showing me the humility to find the Faith. We are both blessed!

     
  20. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    At my cousins' churches I was invited to. At the Nebraska all-convert church I didn't try. I was also criticized by the priest for doing the sign of the cross "like a Catholic" and he said he wasn't familiar with my Church as an Orthodox or Catholic Church. I was stunned. He thought I was protestant because I said I was Armenian Apostolic and he thought I was pentecostal because of the 'Apostolic' part, he told me a couple of his parishioners were former Apostolics and I had to say "oh, yeah, that's a different kind of Apostolic".
     
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