Any Alternative Explanations of Jesus of Nazareth?

cloudyday2

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I was trying to pinpoint why I don't call myself a Christian. I'm NOT convinced by the fully naturalistic view of reality promoted by skeptics, because I have experienced seemingly spiritual things - often involving Christian symbols and ideas. So why don't I believe in Christianity? At least one reason I don't believe is that the teachings of Jesus about an imminent Kingdom of Heaven and the climax of the Crucifixion sounds all too much like a mistake. Jesus comes across as a brilliant but deluded religious leader whose idealism was crushed by the heartless practicality of Roman rule.

The usual explanation that Jesus came to be a sacrifice on the Cross for the sins of the world just isn't plausible to me. So I was wondering if there are other ways to understand Jesus that make Christianity workable?
 

“Paisios”

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I was trying to pinpoint why I don't call myself a Christian. I'm NOT convinced by the fully naturalistic view of reality promoted by skeptics, because I have experienced seemingly spiritual things - often involving Christian symbols and ideas. So why don't I believe in Christianity? At least one reason I don't believe is that the teachings of Jesus about an imminent Kingdom of Heaven and the climax of the Crucifixion sounds all too much like a mistake. Jesus comes across as a brilliant but deluded religious leader whose idealism was crushed by the heartless practicality of Roman rule.

The usual explanation that Jesus came to be a sacrifice on the Cross for the sins of the world just isn't plausible to me. So I was wondering if there are other ways to understand Jesus that make Christianity workable?
I don’t have a good answer for you, but will be following this with interest to see what others

(I had questions and concerns about the standard penal substitution theory given for the Crucifixion, and my inquiries eventually led me to the Eastern Orthodox Church. You might find that some of the Orthodox thinking on it resonates better - or you might not...what do I know?)
 
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I don’t have a good answer for you, but will be following this with interest to see what others

(I had questions and concerns about the standard penal substitution theory given for the Crucifixion, and my inquiries eventually led me to the Eastern Orthodox Church. You might find that some of the Orthodox thinking on it resonates better - or you might not...what do I know?)
Thanks for the input. I converted to Eastern Orthodox in 2009, but I stopped attending church two years later. If you want to share your understanding of the Orthodox view I would be curious. I joined the Orthodox church because something happened. I was a cynical lapsed Episcopalian but I guess I became psychotic briefly or experienced a spiritual attack of some kind and couldn't sleep for a week or so (hard to explain). So my mother who had converted to Orthodoxy made an appointment with her priest who apparently performed an exorcism and asked me to promise to attend church without fail every week. So I started attending and was re-baptized and chrismated a couple months later, but I didn't know anything about the theology of Orthodoxy. It was basically a shotgun wedding. I began trying to learn about Orthodox beliefs AFTER becoming Orthodox rather than before, and I never felt that I understood their ideas. I felt that something was very wrong about Christianity and my "spiritual" experiences, and I finally couldn't stand it any longer and quit. (That is an oversimplification even though it is probably still pretty complicated and confusing.)
 
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“Paisios”

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Thanks for the input. I converted to Eastern Orthodox in 2009, but I stopped attending church two years later. If you want to share your understanding of the Orthodox view I would be curious. I joined the Orthodox church because something happened. I was a cynical lapsed Episcopalian but either I guess I became psychotic briefly and couldn't sleep. So my mother who had converted to Orthodoxy made an appointment with her priest who apparently performed an exorcism in Serbian (a language I don't understand LOL) and asked me to promise to attend church without fail every week. So I started attending and was re-baptized and chrismated a couple months later, but I didn't know anything about the theology of Orthodoxy. It was basically a shotgun wedding. I began trying to learn about Orthodox beliefs AFTER becoming Orthodox rather than before, and I never felt that I understood their ideas. I felt that something was very wrong about Christianity and my "spiritual" experiences, and I finally couldn't stand it any longer and quit.
Thanks for sharing. I guess my issues with the penal substitutionary atonement theory was that if God had to sacrifice Himself in the person of Christ in order to appease Himself, then it meant that He was not omnipotent - if He was obligated to do anything, even because of His own Law, then there is something higher than God that was sovereign, and that didn’t seem right. I can’t say that I totally understand the Orthodox view, but the idea of God sharing our human nature in the person of Jesus even to the point of death (which is the point of separation between man and God as a result of sin) to bring us back to Him and restore His image within us, made more sense to me. Yes, there is judgment, yes, sin is serious, but the “hospital model”, instead of a purely “courtroom model” seemed to fit more closely with a living God. But I am a brand new convert to Orthodoxy (only a few weeks baptized), so I wouldn’t presume to give any good apology of the Orthodox faith. You probably know more than I do.
 
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cloudyday2

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But I am a brand new convert to Orthodoxy (only a few weeks baptized), so I wouldn’t presume to give any good apology of the Orthodox faith. You probably know more than I do.
It sounds like you know quite a bit about Orthodoxy already, and I hope it works for you :)
 
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BTW, I started this thread because I was remembering a black candle that I found on the flat roof outside my apartment a few months after having psychosis or spiritual problems. I am pretty skeptical about religion of any flavor, but I tend to puzzle over loose ends. That whole period in my life is a giant loose end, and Christianity is a part of it.
 
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“Paisios”

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It sounds like you know quite a bit about Orthodoxy already, and I hope it works for you :)
Still a long way to go. But really, any theology for me is just trying to explain what I have experienced. I had an encounter with Christ, which changed everything in my outlook and concept of life, the universe and everything, and Christianity (specifically Orthodoxy) seemed to be the best way I could make sense of it. (It is kind of like eating an ice cream cone for the first time, then trying to find the science to explain how come it tastes so good. But all the explanations in the world aren’t the same as that experience, even if they are helpful.)
 
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At least one reason I don't believe is that the teachings of Jesus about an imminent Kingdom of Heaven and the climax of the Crucifixion sounds all too much like a mistake. Jesus comes across as a brilliant but deluded religious leader whose idealism was crushed by the heartless practicality of Roman rule.
I'm not sure what you mean by imminent. Jesus said that he was bringing the Kingdom. His ethical teachings are ethics of the Kingdom. Some people say he taught a purely spiritual Kingdom, but that's not quite true. Although he certainly advocated prayer, his teaching aren't primarily what we'd normally call spiritual. He talked about how we treat each other, and about following him. That's not so much an imminent Kingdom as a present Kingdom.

He also taught, as the Prophets did, that in the end God would fix the whole world. Hence parables like the seed growing secretly. The Kingdom is already here growing, but it's mostly among his followers (though certainly how we live is visible to others, and is one of the main things attracting people to Christianity). But at some point it will become mature and (using Pauline terminology) every knee will bow and every tongue give praise. But he said he didn't know when that was going to happen.
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by imminent. Jesus said that he was bringing the Kingdom. His ethical teachings are ethics of the Kingdom. Some people say he taught a purely spiritual Kingdom, but that's not quite true. Although he certainly advocated prayer, his teaching aren't primarily what we'd normally call spiritual. He talked about how we treat each other, and about following him. That's not so much an imminent Kingdom as a present Kingdom.

He also taught, as the Prophets did, that in the end God would fix the whole world. Hence parables like the seed growing secretly. The Kingdom is already here growing, but it's mostly among his followers (though certainly how we live is visible to others, and is one of the main things attracting people to Christianity). But at some point it will become mature and (using Pauline terminology) every knee will bow and every tongue give praise. But he said he didn't know when that was going to happen.
O.k. I watched a Bible study arguing similarly - that the Kingdom of Heaven would be a hidden thing that would change from within (like yeast in dough).

So what about the Crucifixion? What purpose did that serve if any?
 
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The usual explanation that Jesus came to be a sacrifice on the Cross for the sins of the world just isn't plausible to me. So I was wondering if there are other ways to understand Jesus that make Christianity workable?
Jesus certainly died. It wasn't just chance, it was an inherent part of his mission. But in my view that was just part of his broader mission to begin God's kingdom.
 
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O.k. I watched a Bible study arguing similarly - that the Kingdom of Heaven would be a hidden thing that would change from within (like yeast in dough).

So what about the Crucifixion? What purpose did that serve if any?
There are lots of explanations. I don't think we have to pick just one.

For one, part of reconciling us to God -- which was a basic part of the Kingdom -- meant experiencing the worst of human life and being victorious. Otherwise how could he be a model for the many people who lead really wretched lives. In the Reformed tradition, one major part of the atonement is his obedience to death. Jesus didn't just tell us what to do. He was a model. And Christians from the very beginning experienced a spiritual communion with him in which he acts through them. Paul describes this in Rom 6. We die with Christ and rise to new life. I don't think that works without him really experiencing all the consequences of sin and brokenness, which includes death.

The interesting question is what Jesus himself thought. He speaks several times about his upcoming death, and in part it seems like it's an expected end for a prophet, someone who is really confronting the worst. But in the words of institution (what he said at the last supper), he talks about the blood of the new covenant. This is a reference to Ex 24:8, describing the covenant sacrifice establishing the covenant. But the new covenant is a reference to Jer 31:31, the new covenant that writes the law in our hearts. The implication is that his death would change our hearts. That's what Paul speaks of in Rom 6.

This is based on a world-view that differs from ours, where people aren't independent of each other, but parents suffer for children and children for parents, where nations are treated as moral actors, where people bear each others' burdens. Where we are "in Christ," to use Paul's term. Ultimately I don't think Christianity makes any sense without that assumption.
 
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There are lots of explanations. I don't think we have to pick just one.
I don't think the sacrifice model is very persuasive, because sacrifice of animals was performed humanely by trained priests in the official Temple according to a ritual. Crucifixion was a ghastly spectacle. They really don't have much in common with each other.

Maybe part of the mission of Jesus was to condemn the old covenant of Judaism. The Messiah came and the officialdom of Judaism rejected him just as they had done to so many prophets. But Jesus was the last chance for Judaism, and his rejection nullified the old covenant. The cursing of the fig tree and the overturning of the table in the Temple symbolized God's frustration with Judaism. Of course this explanation was probably part of why Christians treated Jewish minorities so badly.
 
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I don't think the sacrifice model is very persuasive, because sacrifice of animals was performed humanely by trained priests in the official Temple according to a ritual. Crucifixion was a ghastly spectacle. They really don't have much in common with each other.

Maybe part of the mission of Jesus was to condemn the old covenant of Judaism. The Messiah came and the officialdom of Judaism rejected him just as they had done to so many prophets. But Jesus was the last chance for Judaism, and his rejection nullified the old covenant. The cursing of the fig tree and the overturning of the table in the Temple symbolized God's frustration with Judaism. Of course this explanation was probably part of why Christians treated Jewish minorities so badly.
Perhaps I can take a stab at it. For the most part, you are on the right track. However, Jesus was not condemning the old covenant of Judaism. In fact the opposite was true. Jesus told the Pharisees, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18). Rather, the Judaism that was practiced was far from what it was originally intended to be. The Pharisees and other religious leader in a way perverted the Old Testament Law and followed a "law" of their own creation. Repeatedly Jesus pointed out their hypocrisy. Paul notes this in 2 Corinthians 3:6 when he said "[Jesus] has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

As far as the reason for the Crucifixion and atonement, you will find numerous theories ranging from Cistus Victor, Penal Substitution, and Ransom Theory. All of which has biblical support. I personally believe that the answer doesn't necessarily have to be either one or the other. Rather, they all are true. The bottom line is that the Crucifixion needed to happen in order to fulfill prophecy.
 
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Perhaps I can take a stab at it. For the most part, you are on the right track.

I have been thinking that if my explanation is correct (that the Crucifixion was simply the Jewish establishment's rejection of God's chosen Messiah rather than a sacrifice) then the Gospel of John is probably not inspired and does not belong in the Canon. The Gospel of John promotes the idea that Jesus was a Passover lamb, and that leads to understanding the Crucifixion as some sort of sacrifice for some sort of sin.

I wonder what sort of theology would arise if a person could block from memory all but the very oldest NT texts? These texts would be the Synoptics and the unquestionably authentic Pauline epistles (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans, Philippians, Philemon).
 
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I have been thinking that if my explanation is correct (that the Crucifixion was simply the Jewish establishment's rejection of God's chosen Messiah rather than a sacrifice) then the Gospel of John is probably not inspired and does not belong in the Canon. The Gospel of John promotes the idea that Jesus was a Passover lamb, and that leads to understanding the Crucifixion as some sort of sacrifice for some sort of sin.

I wonder what sort of theology would arise if a person could block from memory all but the very oldest NT texts? These texts would be the Synoptics and the unquestionably authentic Pauline epistles (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans, Philippians, Philemon).
mainline Christianity

But the Words of Institution, present in both the Synoptics and Paul, see Jesus as a sacrifice as well. This is not historically implausible. There was some tradition of vicarious sacrifice. Is. 53 is well-known, but in 1st Cent Judaism Isaac's near sacrifice was treated as vicarious sacrifice, and there were also examples in non-canonical books.

The issue may be more complex than you realize. Paul is in some sense a mystic. He sees the heart of Christianity as the presence of the Holy Spirit uniting us with Christ.

Christianity as a whole, in all its flavors, depends upon Christians experiencing Jesus’ presence in one way or another. That’s just as true in Paul as John, despite Paul’s early date. Indeed it’s hard to see how Christianity would have developed and survived without that kind of experience.

John may actually show just as early a form as the Synoptics and Paul. In Judaism there was a tradition to anthropomorphize divine characteristics (e.g. Wisdom), and also to have divine agents such as angels that were sort of God and sort of not. John seems to envision Jesus in these terms. That could easily be the first stage in post-resurrection Christian understanding of Jesus.

Paul identified Jesus with God just as much as John did, but in slightly different terms. Rather than seeing him as an intermediary form as John did, Paul uses other Jewish traditions about divine mediation, speaking of Jesus as Lord, as having God’s holy name (Phil 2:5), and sharing God’s glory and throne.

Both John and Paul emphasize the role of the Holy Spirit in uniting us to Christ.

John differs from the Synoptics in that it combines the narrative with editorial material reflecting this perspective. If you look at John carefully, you’ll see that it contains a number of episodes. Each start with a brief narrative, usually with a bit of dialog. If you stop there, it wouldn’t be far in style from the Synoptics. But it then continues with theological reflections, often attributed to Jesus. While the reflections aren’t necessarily couched in the same terms that Paul used, I’m not sure they’re necessarily later.

It’s less obvious to most readers in the Synoptic Gospels, despite the fact that they’re later than Paul. The Synoptics still see Jesus as God’s presence, but use terms different from John or Paul. They see him as Son of God and Son of Man. The Son of Man is based on an image in Daniel. It’s just as much an intermediary form as John’s Logos. Son of God is more subtle, because it could be used of the king. But in the Synoptics it’s probably intended more as an intermediary form. Jesus clearly acts for God. One example in Mark is forgiving sins, which only God could do. (Whether all Jews agreed that only God could forgive sins is beside the point. Mark intended it to show him acting either for God or as God.)

There are certainly critical scholars that will argue this sort of thing went back to Jesus himself.
 
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But the Words of Institution, present in both the Synoptics and Paul, see Jesus as a sacrifice as well. This is not historically implausible. There was some tradition of vicarious sacrifice. Is. 53 is well-known, but in 1st Cent Judaism Isaac's near sacrifice was treated as vicarious sacrifice, and there were also examples in non-canonical books.
The essence of sacrifice is giving up something dear to demonstrate your devotion to God. The Crucifixion cannot be explained as a sacrifice, because Jesus was rejected by the Jewish authorities and handed-over to the pagan Romans to be executed. The Crucifixion is more like the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his angry brothers and then rising with God's help to a high office where he could repay his brothers with love and mercy in their hour of need.

The issue may be more complex than you realize. Paul is in some sense a mystic. He sees the heart of Christianity as the presence of the Holy Spirit uniting us with Christ.
O.k., but I wonder what Paul thought about the Crucifixion? Did he think it was a sacrifice? There is a section in one of Paul's epistles that scholars believe was a recitation of an early Christian creed or hymn. I can't remember which epistle contained that (probably you know). I wonder what that early creed said about the Crucifixion if anything?

John may actually show just as early a form as the Synoptics and Paul.
All we can know is that the theology in the Gospel of John existed no LATER than the date of composition, and also new ideas build on old ideas. So that is a good point, but it seems safer to exclude the Gospel of John with its later date of composition. But of course the Gospel of John might contain an earlier theology. And it is hard to know the theology of the synoptic gospels when they lack the commentary you mentioned in the Gospel of John. Maybe the authors of the synoptics believed the same theology as the author of the Gospel of John even though they didn't include theology with their narratives to make that obvious.

But in the Synoptics it’s probably intended more as an intermediary form. Jesus clearly acts for God. One example in Mark is forgiving sins, which only God could do. (Whether all Jews agreed that only God could forgive sins is beside the point. Mark intended it to show him acting either for God or as God.)
That is good evidence for believing that the high Christology goes back to the earliest Christians, but it doesn't support the idea that the earliest Christians saw the Crucifixion as a sacrifice. Maybe there is similar evidence in the synoptics for the sacrifice idea that I have forgotten.
 
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The essence of sacrifice is giving up something dear to demonstrate your devotion to God. The Crucifixion cannot be explained as a sacrifice, because Jesus was rejected by the Jewish authorities and handed-over to the pagan Romans to be executed. The Crucifixion is more like the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his angry brothers and then rising with God's help to a high office where he could repay his brothers with love and mercy in their hour of need.
No, sacrifice is voluntarily dying to achieve something important. We talk about soldiers making sacrifices. Vicarious sacrifice is dying in someone else's place. That's what the Jewish examples I cited were. You're thinking of animal sacrifice, where an offering is given to God. The concept of sacrifice is a lot broader than that.

And even among that kind of cultic sacrifice, there are different types. In the OT we have sacrifices for sin, as part of establishing a covenant, and fellowship sacrifices, which are simply normal worship.

The words of institution are “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” Mark's version of the second: “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."

This is sacrificial. It indicates he is dying for his people. But more specifically, Paul's version paraphrases and Mark's quotes Ex 24:8, thus making it clear that it is intended as a covenant sacrifice. The covenant would be Jer 31:31

What is it not is a sin sacrifice.

I've thought about what Jesus might have had in mind. First, the Gospels say he went to Jerusalem knowing what was going to happen. That is plausible. We know that he thought his people were headed for disaster. While there's no explicit explanation like this in the text, I think given the Jewish traditions, it is plausible to think he intended it as a vicarious act of repentance on behalf of his people.

What did Paul think the significance was? The only explicit explanation is Rom 6. You should read the text carefully. That is a sacrifice in the sense that it's a death for our benefit. He does also quote the words of institution though, which I think are sacrificial in a slightly different sense. Phil 2:8 sees it as an act of obedience. I would call it a sacrifice in the sense that he submitted voluntarily for our benefit. Rom 3:25 speaks of it as a sacrifice. Just what kind is disputed. It uses a word that alludes to the OT sacrificial altar, but may not specify a particular way in which it worked. It's sometimes translated propitiation, but sacrifice of atonement seems safer, since propitiation has implications that are probably more specific than the language justifies.

Now we get beyond the undisputed letters. Eph 2:13 says he made peace through his death, though it isn't explicit how. Col 1:20 is the same. Col 2:14 talks about nailing the law to the cross, suggesting perhaps that by being condemned according to the Law and then vindicated by God, it ends the force of the Law, though a substitutionary understanding would also work.

Sacrifice is very clear. Certainly in Paul. But I think with Jesus as well. The fact that he accepted death voluntarily is hard to dispute. That makes it a sacrifice in the broadest sense. If the Words of Institution are accurate it's even a cultic sacrifice. Given that these are present in both the Synoptics and Paul the words are very old. I'm going to see they go back to Jesus, but that can always be disputed. What's not present is penal substitution, at least in the sense the CF writers normally mean it.
 
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I gave you my guess that Jesus intended his death as vicarious repentance. Let me try to be more explicit. I believe this is basically N T Wright’s understanding, though it’s hard enough to explain that I can’t be sure.

There is in the OT, and thus Jewish culture, this idea that evil has to be dealt with. If someone was murdered, his blood cried out for vengeance. If the murderer wasn’t found, the town had to do something to deal with it. It is all too visible in the modern world that evil isn’t just isolated individual decisions, but that there’s a kind of corporate existence to it. It has to go somewhere. Jesus saw that his people were headed for disaster with the Romans, and maybe even internally. There was hatred in the air. It had to go somewhere to be dealt with. In his culture, with their background, taking it on himself in sacrifice makes sense.

Does it make broader sense? Maybe. When there are serious interpersonal breaches, something has to happen. Saying I’m sorry may not be enough. To repair the breach, the innocent party may have to accept the consequences also. For a breach like ours with God, for God to accept the consequences makes sense.

A couple of years ago I talked with a junior high Sunday School class about how they deal with serious interpersonal problems. The girls said they didn’t. If someone betrayed a friend they had no clear way to deal with it. The breach might well be permanent. But for the boys, if the situation was bad enough that they couldn’t ignore it, the offender sometime had to accept a punch from the innocent party. In my opinion it’s not exactly a punishment. It’s an acknowledgement of the seriousness of the offense and of repentance. I think that’s really want OT sacrifice was. I don’t think it was, strictly speaking, a punishment. I think it makes a certain kind of deep psychological sense that something like the cross may be needed to repair the breach with God. The difference, of course, is that in this case the innocent party is taking on the consequences.
 
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I have been thinking that if my explanation is correct (that the Crucifixion was simply the Jewish establishment's rejection of God's chosen Messiah rather than a sacrifice) then the Gospel of John is probably not inspired and does not belong in the Canon. The Gospel of John promotes the idea that Jesus was a Passover lamb, and that leads to understanding the Crucifixion as some sort of sacrifice for some sort of sin.

I wonder what sort of theology would arise if a person could block from memory all but the very oldest NT texts? These texts would be the Synoptics and the unquestionably authentic Pauline epistles (1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans, Philippians, Philemon).
Why would it not be possible for the Crucifixion to be the sacrifice of Jesus as the Passover Lamb that came as a result of the Jewish establishment's rejection of God's chosen Messiah? In other words, why either/or? Why not both?
 
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