Antinomianism and you

[HTacianas]

Are you referring to the Ten Commandments, or something else?
(fraud is outside the TCs)

I am referring to the ten commandments, yes. But also to all those other examples of general harm or dishonesty between people. "Holding back the wages of a worker" which is an example of fraud, sometimes called lying in the new testament. Jesus pointed out fraud as a thing to be avoided:

Mar 10:19 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

The writer of the Revelation also condemns it:

Rev 21:8 - But...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[mark kennedy]

What do you mean by "The gospel fulfills the Law"?
The Sermon on the Mount says "the Law or the Prophets".
How do you abolish a Prophet?
Have you ever seen Jesus' post-resurrection explanation of Matt.5:17 ?

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

The righteous requirements of the Law, of course Jesus was also fulfilling prophetic predictions as well. I have no idea what you mean with regards to Matt. 5:17 and the Law being fulfilled, would you care to elaborate?

 

[Saint Steven]

I am referring to the ten commandments, yes. But also to all those other examples of general harm or dishonesty between people. "Holding back the wages of a worker" which is an example of fraud, sometimes called lying in the new testament. Jesus pointed out fraud as a thing to be avoided:

Mar 10:19 - Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

The writer of the Revelation also condemns it:

Rev 21:8 - But...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus reference to "fraud" puts the scope of "commandments" outside the Ten to include the whole law of 612 commandments. The whole law.

In reference to the TCs, were they engraved in letters on stone?
If so, the Apostle says they were the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now. The letter kills. -- Other than that, pretty awesome.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[Saint Steven]

The righteous requirements of the Law, of course Jesus was also fulfilling prophetic predictions as well. I have no idea what you mean with regards to Matt. 5:17 and the Law being fulfilled, would you care to elaborate?

Typically those who make reference to Matt. 5:17 say that it refers to "the law", when it actually refers to "the Law or the Prophets". This is a reference to the books of the Law and the books of the Prophets. And Jesus expands that to include the Psalms in Luke.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[HTacianas]

Jesus reference to "fraud" puts the scope of "commandments" outside the Ten to include the whole law of 612 commandments. The whole law.

In reference to the TCs, were they engraved in letters on stone?
If so, the Apostle says they were the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now. The letter kills. -- Other than that, pretty awesome.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Just so I understand you, are you claiming that the entirety of the law is abolished?

 

[into_the_wilderness]

This is a largely Satanic value. I don't mean that hyperbolically - Satanist and left-hand path groups often speak about antinomianism and how they do not validate any moral systems as objective or absolute. I think it basically feeds into the cultural/moral relativism that is so prevalent in our times.

Saying that, maybe you could also consider some types of anarcho-Christians as antinomian in that they see no true authority in the laws of Earth, feeling that they answer only to God's law (I don't know how much that actually affects their practical actions here on Earth as I'm sure they still do their best not to get arrested XD)

 

[DamianWarS]

Because I do not advocate violating the moral law. All those things we are to abstain from: Murder, theft, fraud, idolatry, etc.

with Antinomianism "abolish" is the right language but I don't see the law abolished, I see it fulfilled which is different. I also don't see that we are lawless but under Christ's law. I subscribe to Neonomianism, not Antinomianism.

 

[Dave L]

Antinomianism is a later term meaning "against the law". It doesn't mean some act that violates the law, but describes the idea that the entirety of the old testament law is abolished. Hence an individual who is against the law. If the law is abolished there is no sin, so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified.

Is there anyone here who holds to that belief or do you know anyone who does?

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant, replaced by the New. Believers are now under the Two Great Commandments of love for God and people. And only use the Ten for commentary and instruction. But by living in harmony with the Two Great Commandments, we naturally keep the moral aspects of the Ten without trying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Antinomianism is a later term meaning "against the law". It doesn't mean some act that violates the law, but describes the idea that the entirety of the old testament law is abolished. Hence an individual who is against the law. If the law is abolished there is no sin, so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified.

Is there anyone here who holds to that belief or do you know anyone who does?

I like older dictionaries.

The Webster's 1913 say:

An`ti`no´mi`an
a. 1. Of or pertaining to the Antinomians; opposed to the doctrine that the moral law is obligatory.
n. 1. (Eccl. Hist.) One who maintains that, under the gospel dispensation, the moral law is of no use or obligation, but that faith alone is necessary to salvation. The sect of Antinomians originated with John Agricola, in Germany, about the year 1535.

So if somebody says that the moral law is of no use in the gospel, then that means they believe that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Meaning, they believe that they can lie or lust after women on occasion and die in those sins and still be saved. This is true according to some believers I have talked with; However, they do say that if this is the case for a believer, they do have to generally live a holy life (Whatever that means). Meaning, they do not believe one or two grievous sins can separate a believer from GOD if that believer lived holy for the most part in their life. This is simply not what the Bible teaches, though. Jesus warned of the one sin of looking upon a woman in lust and it could potentially send that person's body to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). John says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15). So yes. If a believer dies in a state of hating their brother.... they are not saved. If a believer dies with unforgiveness towards another, they are not going to be forgiven (not be saved).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Antinomianism (Which was a real belief but it was not a term in existence yet) was a problem mentioned by John in his 1st epistle. John was warning the brethren against the false gnostic belief that says that sin does not exist or is an illusion in 1 John 1:8 (Compare with 1 John 2:3-4 and also see 1 John 2:26).
Note: Christian Scientists believe that sin is not real or it is an illusion.
OSAS or Belief Alone Proponents believe something similar. They say that while sin is physically real, it does not exist for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for all their future sin.
This of course is not what the Bible teaches.
Antinomianism is wrong.

The founder of the term "Antinomianism" is with this man here:
Johannes Agricola - Wikipedia

 

[His student]

Antinomianism is a later term meaning "against the law". It doesn't mean some act that violates the law, but describes the idea that the entirety of the old testament law is abolished. Hence an individual who is against the law. If the law is abolished there is no sin, so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified. Is there anyone here who holds to that belief or do you know anyone who does?

Actually antinomianism does not just include the O.T. law when it advocates that we are not now governed in any way by the law. Some definitions online say that. But that is not what the controversy is all about.

Antinomianism teaches that since salvation is by grace alone and not works, and it is, there is no reason to obey any moral law - written or not. We should even go on sinning that grace may increase. People in the scriptures wrongly accused Paul of teaching that because of his strong stance on salvation by grace.

People here in the forum quite often accuse those who preach against our success at being obedient to God having anything to do with salvation in the most basic sense (Heaven vs. Hell as it were) - of teaching antinominism just as they did Paul.

It's a straw man of course. No one here teaches that we are to sin that grace may increase or even, as some say grace only proponents teach, that there are absolutely no consequences to sinning now that we are saved. In fact, I don't believe I have ever heard anyone teaching that - here or anywhere else.

To those who quickly charge the grace folks with "antinomianism" - the only "consequence" they can think of for sinning is losing your salvation and spending eternity in the fires of Hell.

Like I said - it's a straw man used by those who would add works to the work of Christ in order to either get saved in the first place or to stay saved and not lose your salvation.

There are few if any antinomians in this forum. There are a great many of those who wrongly accuse people of being so, simply because they take a correct stand on the doctrine of eternal security for those who have been born again and actually saved.

After this post, one or two will likely pop up here on this thread. I would actually expect nothing less base on my experience with the great many here who wrongly teach various forms of works salvation.

I see that you of the Orthodox persuasion. While I can't know your exact view on the subject of salvation - I do know that Orthodox seldom speak of our being saved at this time. They generally teach that we are "being saved" by cooperating with God (i.e. - obedience to Him, various religious observances, rites and the moral law He has given us).

When a person points out that hoping to be saved in the end by being conformed to Christ's image through our yielding to God is not the way to salvation in the most basic sense (Heaven vs. Hell) - that person is quite often accused by the Orthodox Christian of teaching antinomianism.

I certainly hope that that isn't where you intended to go with this thread all along.

 

[hedrick]

I believe Antinomianism (Which was a real belief but it was not a term in existence yet) was a problem mentioned by John in his 1st epistle. John was warning the brethren against the false gnostic belief that says that sin does not exist or is an illusion in 1 John 1:8 (Compare with 1 John 2:3-4 and also see 1 John 2:26).

Right. The difficulty is that antinomianism is ambiguous. For many it implies that there are no standards for behavior.

But in this discussion it has a narrower meaning, rejection of the Mosaic Law.

My understanding of both Paul and Acts 15 is that that Law is not binding on us. Lutheran and Reformed teach the third use of the Law, which is as a guideline for behavior. We can certainly learn something about God from seeing the Law for the Jewish people. But that Law as a legal body isn't binding on us, because it was part of a covenant that we aren't a party to.

That does not mean that there are no standards for us. Jesus' teachings act as a standard, and Paul's letters give an example of applying that to his congregations' situation.

I don't think you can divide the OT Law into moral and ceremonial parts, and leave the moral parts as laws for us. They are all part of a covenant that we aren't part of. But it is certainly true that the OT Law reflects basic moral principles.

The problem with a division is that none of the NT treatments of the Law use it. Paul never makes that division. He speaks of the Law as a unit. He certainly holds Christians to moral standards, but he doesn't say that those standards due to a part of the OT Law that he considers moral.

Acts 15 doesn't say anything about a division of the Law either. It is generally thought to be based on the Jewish concept of the Noahic law. This is a set of moral principles that apply to all of humanity, because they date to Noah, and thus precede the Mosaic covenant.

 

[Chris V++]

Because I do not advocate violating the moral law. All those things we are to abstain from: Murder, theft, fraud, idolatry, etc.

So are you saying there are Christians who do advocate murder, stealing, cheating, and worshiping idols by claiming no obligation to keep the commandments?

 

[Tree of Life]

Are you claiming that we are under the law?

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

We are under the law in the sense that we are being conformed to the image of Christ and we are called to obey God. But we are not under the law as a means of justification.

 

[Tree of Life]

Are you referring to the Ten Commandments, or something else?
(fraud is outside the TCs)

You don't think that "Ye shall not lie" and "Ye shall not steal" are broad enough to cover fraud?

 

[Neogaia777]

Antinomianism is a later term meaning "against the law". It doesn't mean some act that violates the law, but describes the idea that the entirety of the old testament law is abolished. Hence an individual who is against the law. If the law is abolished there is no sin, so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified.

Is there anyone here who holds to that belief or do you know anyone who does?

There are reasons for it's being "abolished" in a born-again believers life, and it is not these or "this": "so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified." That's not it at all... Your missing the point and the real purpose of the law...

"Abolished" can mean "finished, done away with, or completed, or true intended purpose complete or completed, and now it's on to something else, anyway...

Their is still a purpose for the law, so it is not entirely done away with yet... but not for the "born again Christian", for them it is already done... Becomes "past tense" ect... "Passes away", ect, (like Paul says)...

After Judgement Day, and during the thousand year reign of Christ and (some) of his people at that time on earth, the law will be completely done away with at that time, after the judgement, cause that is what it is and what it does... And after that it no longer has any more need or purpose...

The law was never meant to save, nor was the law ever meant to show us "the way" or path to Salvation (found in Jesus, in the NT, NC)... The law that you refer to, was only meant as a lawgiver and judge, and in that judgment to pronounce us guilty, but beyond that, nothing else, it leaves you there, nothing added or continued from there, and beyond that, it's purpose is done and completed and over with after that... anyway, nothing added or continued, or no continuation from there, until you get into Christ and the NC... It is continued from there...

And/but, if you don't start from there, I think your a "wolf in sheep's clothing", just me and my opinion...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

We go by the Spirit now!, the law is dead... but you just try and go by it and think your going to somehow "attain righteousness through it", and see what and where that gets you, or how that will work out for you K...?

When your truly born again, you almost have to "forget" the law, and it's list and sets of commandments, and now, this is key: "in order not to fall back into sin again!" When trying to walk in and by the Spirit... For the two are in conflict... Especially after your born again...

Sin gets it's power through the law, sin is revived and or made worse by the introduction of the law... And for those who do not "submit" to it's "judgement of us" in this life, much, much worse...

But after the judgement, you get up and you start walking through this life again, now in the Spirit, with a new set of eyes now, and a new level of relationship of, or with God in it, with you, that will change what you see, what you hear, your whole "experience" in and through this life, for the rest of your life...

But you'll miss out if you go by the OT law covenant... Because your own judgments and judgmental attitudes and ways will blind you from it, exasterbated by the law...

God Bless!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Antinomianism is a later term meaning "against the law". It doesn't mean some act that violates the law, but describes the idea that the entirety of the old testament law is abolished. Hence an individual who is against the law. If the law is abolished there is no sin, so a person can behave themself any way they want to and still be justified.

Is there anyone here who holds to that belief or do you know anyone who does?

Antinomianism means that law = 0 and nothing is put in it's place.

I don't believe that. It's more like slavery -> liberty.

I believe something superior has replaced the Mosaic Law, (sun eclipsing moon style) not so much the abolishing of the law, but God writing the actual laws into our hearts making the old way of understanding obsolete.

Since we who are born again by the Holy Spirit are citizens of God's kingdom, we have more freedom (and the inner assistance from the Holy Spirit) to determine what is the best course of action. Under the slave contract in the Old Covenant, if you stepped out of line when God or an Angelic task master was presently speaking through a representative, you were dead, and there were several death penalty offenses.

Under the old covenant, this could not be helped since the Holy Spirit was not sent in the same capacity as it was after the crucifixion.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think I know why some people like or won't let go of the law or works of the law, and I think that is because it has a way of "making you appear righteous before men" and can get you the "praises of men", ect, but, we all know the truth now don't we... Whether or not you are righteous before God should be all that matters, and sometimes it may not look that way to, or before, or in front of men either... You want that, go with the law I guess... But, you'll have your reward in full...

God Bless!

 

[mark kennedy]

Typically those who make reference to Matt. 5:17 say that it refers to "the law", when it actually refers to "the Law or the Prophets". This is a reference to the books of the Law and the books of the Prophets. And Jesus expands that to include the Psalms in Luke.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I don't see the conflict or the correction here, the Psalms and Prophets were canonical alongside the Law of Moses. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus specifically mentions the commandments. What I think Jesus is speaking of is whatever is right or just in itself, whatever conforms to the revealed will of God, (Mat 5:6, 10, 20). Whatever has been appointed by God to be acknowledged and obeyed by man. (Mat 3:15; 21:32). The sum total of the requirements of God, (Mat 6:33). religious duties, Mat 6:1 (distinguished as almsgiving, man's duty to his neighbor, (Mat 6:2-4), prayer, his duty to God, Mat 6:5-15, fasting, the duty of self-control, Mat 6:16-18). That sort of thing.

There is another sense in which something from the Prophets and Psalms is 'fulfilled' or accomplished, generally this is fulfilled prophecy and promises of redemption. When Jesus had completed his word on the cross he said 'it is finished' (John 19:28-30), it's the same word used to describe the 'mystery of God' being finished as the result of the seventh trumpet sounded in Revelations (Rev 10:7). The same word used of the testimony of the two witnesses being 'finished', half way through the tribulation period (Rev. 11:7). The same word used to describe the completion of the 'wrath of God' (Rev. 15:1). It's used to speak of fulfilling the Law (Rom. 2:27), fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Gal. 5:15), and finishing a race (2 Timothy 4:7).

While it's a different word used in those passages, some of the meaning remains consistent with Jesus speaking of fulfilling the Law. Same basic concept.