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Antichrist one person?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rynox, Mar 7, 2002.

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  1. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Davo,

    Are you implying that God can only author a prophecy that only has ONE meaning, and can be only fulfilled ONE time? If you've ever taken an english lit. class you're bound to have studied how HUMAN authors can give multiple shades of meaning that extend far beyond what the written word literally says.

    Is God less than man?

    Do I have the mind of God to know all the subtle shades of meanings, the infinite complexities of history, moment by moment so that I could show you the richness of God's prophecies? How can you have read your bible and missed the theme over and over and over again? Here's a hint: When prophecy finds its final fulfillment, there will be no doubt in anyone's mind. When God said that EVERY EYE, would see, that EVERY KNEE would bow, that EVERY TOUNGE would confess, he wasn't being like the fisherman who exaggerated the length of the bass he caught.

    Should I limit God so that his word is flat and one dimensional, that it has an expiration date, is obnoxiously concerned only with a small town in an insignificant country in the far distant past? Would you dare to counter that the Jews were God's chosen people and therefore not insignificant? What was the population of Jerusalem in 70ad? tens of thousands? Surely not a million, but even if this were true the numbers pale in comparison to the countless multitude of Christians since the first century. So all of prophecy for handful of people in a remote region and nothing for the teeming multitudes of the world since.

    I take it from your post you've never had to deal with a demon. You are fortunate. I hope you never have to face an event which forces you to recognize the spiritual warfare which surrounds us. The word 'satan' means 'enemy' and as such it represents all the forces of darkness, not necessarily limited only to Lucifer. So, dear davo, we not only have to overcome the lust of the flesh and our desire to sin, but guard against the enemy who seeks to devour us as well.
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    So you believe that the 2 Thess 2 passage was fulfilled in the first century. Correct? The apostasy is documented history in Jude (all), Hebrews (various passages), 2 Timothy 1:15, and 1 John's many anichrists. Next, the Temple passage of 2 Thess 2 was about to finish up at the time Paul wrote (indeed it was already happening). Furthermore, are you suggesting that the first century fulfillment serves as a TYPE of another fulfillment in our future? Am I understanding your position? Just trying to get some clear statement as to your beliefs.

    This could, of course, lead to a discussion on typology if you hold that everything that happened in the bible can happen again and again.
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    First, let's get the definition of generation settled. The greek word "genea" means the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries in the New Testament. Scholars are in total agreement on this and no serious student of the bible will suggest otherwise. This link documents the VOLUMES of scholarly research and opinion on what "THIS GENERATION" ["genea"] means:

    Matthew 24:34 & Genea -- What the Scholars Say

    That page of unanimous and overwhelming scholarly consensus on the greek word GENEA ("generation") was put together by skeptics who KNOW that Christ and the apostles all taught the 2nd coming was to be before the apostles had all died (John 21:21-22; Matthew 16:27-28); and they say that if Christ therefore did not come back in the 1st century (as many in the Church teach) then therefore Christ is a PROVEN false prophet. Well, I have news for those skeptics: Jesus absolutely came in the generation to whom he was speaking and did so exactly WHEN he promised (Matthew 24:34; Matt 23:36; Matt 10:22-23; Matt 16:27-28; Rev 3:1-3; John 21:21-22, etc).


    Time is CRUCIAL in the bible, and the Hebrew people relied on time as absolute. When Daniel was given visions of the endtimes God said "But Thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal up the book to the time of the end...Go thy way Daniel for the words are closed up and sealed UNTIL the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4,9). So God gave Daniel an ACCURATE time statement to inform him that Daniel was NOT in the endtimes. So time is crucial in matters of scripture and especially bible prophecy. St. John, because he was living in the endtime, is told just the opposite of what Daniel was told: "Seal NOT the words of this prophecy of this book FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND" (Revelation 22:10). This proves that God used statements of time to assure Daniel that he was NOT in the endtime and to declare boldly that St. John WAS in the final endtime. Statements like "soon" and "at hand" are common in the N.T. and always mean a few days to a few years maximum. We cannot re-define the bible to say what we WANT it to say just beacause those time statments don't match what your view demands them to say -- we must keep them exactly as God communicated them and exactly as they mean. Shortly, At Hand, Near, and Soon do not and cannot ever mean anything like hundreds and thousands of years.


    But your meaning of "soon" is without meaning if "soon" can mean thousands of years. If you tell me that "Christ is coming soon," I MUST by your definition of that word understand you to mean "thousands of years away." This is the problem you are having. Soon, at hand, near, etc. mean exactly what Jesus says they signify -- NAMELY, THE END HAD COME:

    Luke 21:8
    And he said, Take heed that ye be not led astray: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and, THE TIME IS AT HAND:

    Luke 21:8
    And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them. (NASB)

    Right there we have Jesus the Messiah CONFIRMING my understanding of time statments, and he is speaking directly about the end. For Jesus, the statement "THE TIME IS NEAR" absolutely means "it's here, baby!"

    I hate to suggest it, but you are the one preaching against the bible. You even say that Christ didn't bind, judge and render satan wholly ineffective! That's an unimaginable knock against Jesus Christ and the work he was manifested to accomplish -- namely, the destruction of satan. Let's get back to the scriptures:

    Hebrews 2:14
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    1 John 3:8
    For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


    John 12:31
    Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    2 Timothy 1:10
    But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


    I don't know how you can argue that satan's ministry has not been fully plundered by Jesus Christ without detracting from Christ. These passages are just a few of many that show that Christ's very Advent had a mission to destroy satan and his works. If you say Christ failed then that would be a tremendous contradiction of the apostles inerrant teaching on the matter and a certain knock against Jesus Christ. Read those passages again.

    God bless you with all victory and riches in Jesus, God over all.

    GW
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Just for the record, Josephus records that 1.3 million died at Jerusalem in the siege of AD 70. Perhaps millions more died from 67-70 when the city swelled with jews from all over the empire to observe the spring festivals and were shut up and trapped in for 3.5 years where in the plagues, famines, war, and death came upon them all. Next, fulfilled prophecies are not IRRELEVANT to us. Rather, they form the very basis and blessings of our faith TODAY. Just because the virgin birth and the resurrection of Christ are PAST doesn't mean they have no impact on us today. That is true of ALL the fulfilled prophecies in the bible.

    Finally, satan is a defeated foe to Christ and his Church. Agreed? (see 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Col 2:15; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19, etc). It certainly is true that those outside the Kingdom of God are bound in chains of sin and darkness and are the "sons of satan" (as was Cain and as were the rulers of Israel Jesus spoke against in John 8:44) -- but look at how bound and powerless satan is to all the Sons of God (Acts 26:17-18; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:17, etc).

    So we must not UNDO the work of Christ in this matter by a retroactive faith that places us back in time as if we are a people living PRIOR to Christ's victory. What a travesty it is, IMHO, to see how futurism is always robbing Christ of his power and completed work.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,545
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    Willis,
    As I understand your above assertion, no prophesy can be declared "completely fulfilled" as long as there are people who deny it has been. Therefore you must be expecting yet another virgin birth, crusifixion, ascention etc, and perhaps more after that since many, many people today do not even believe those events ever happened.


    If you do declare those particular prophesies "completely fulfilled" today, you'l need to find a hermeneutic different than the one quoted above to prove your point.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    What God said is correct, and as we step through the veil of death this is so:
    Heb 9:27(NIV) Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    There was a small little insignificant town in the past (Bethlehem as I recall) in which the Saviour of the world came -since you have such a proclivity for multiple fulfillments of prophecy (and you still haven't answered my questions as to how you determine this) are you expecting yet another saviour to come "to a town near you"?


    Hey Willis, the question is -have you dealt with a demon? How was it? I seem to remember reading somewhere in the Bible that Jesus broke there power utterly. I can't speak for your experiences -however I may challenge your interpration, your explaination for said experiences.

    It is also worth noting that we live in "the world to come" -that is, the world of the New Covenant. And according to the writer of Hebrews there is therefore NO angelic subjection -and Satan was a created angelic being:
    Heb 2:5(NKJV) For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

    Getting ahold of this truth and it will set anyone free of blaming or fearing the devil:

    1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one cannot touch him.
    (as Jesus said to Martha -"do you believe this") And I might add, it is not based on anything we do -this is no works of righteousness based deliverence.

    davo
     

  7. Hi Willis. You are a 100% right they were indeed preterist in their thinking. However the problem with the futurist view is that they believed the resurrection was already past. Therefore Paul and the Thessalonians had another understanding then a literal bodily resurrection.
     
  8. Come on Willis just when I was starting to believe you are the smartest futurist here because at lest you read the Bible.

    Question-have you dealt with a demon? I seem to remember reading somewhere in the Bible that God's saints had all power over demons And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall kile lightning from heaven. "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subjest to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven (Luke 10:18-20)

    Willis are you saying Jesus did not know what he was talking about? Are you saying we today who have the very presences of God within us, have any lest power over the "so called demons" then the saints in the first century who had only the earnest of God's spirit? :scratch:
     
  9. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    I am not here to testify of satan and his power. I have seen demons, I have battled with them. Christians have authority over the spirits through Jesus Christ, but it is necessary to exercise that authority and the world is full of people who don't have that authority and they are at the mercy of the enemy. What I stated here and in a previous post is all I'm going to say on the matter. Don't read anything into what I said or attempt to interpret it in any other way than it was stated.

    davo and p70

    Let's be realistic. Using your same logic we could easily refute the testimony of Matthew, and other apostles. After all, Matthew would use the OT, take one line from one verse and completely ignore the preceeding and following verses and the context of the passage and apply it to Jesus. Now if the apostles weren't required to show how every utterance in the OT was a shadow that had it's substance in the NT then why place that restriction on me? Who said every prophecy has to have multiple fulfillments? When did every word in every OT verse become a shadow which had substance in Christ's generation?

    davo, I did not mean to ignore your questions, as you can tell there are a lot of posters competing for my attention plus many points upon which I must give an answer. Also consider that I take time to read the posts and think on them to judge the merits of said post, and at times this may take me several days.

    When I study prophecy I do a lot of praying. My view on multiple fulfillments came in answer to a prayer and it greatly simplifies things. It doesn't require me to spend a lifetime studying history to see what was fulfilled and when it was fulfilled and try to decide if the seven heads of the revelation beast refer to seven caesars or to seven herodians etc. It saves me from having to spend weeks working out a particular scenario then having to discard the entire work because a key verse is supposedly fulfilled by sombody at some time. It allows me to see how Antiochus Epiphanes fullfilled the AoD without contradicting the statements of Jesus that the AoD was yet to come. It also allows me to be more tolerant of those who have differing views on prophecy, because your preterist views do not disprove my views, and my brothers who expect a future fulfillment doesn't disprove the preterists ideas.

    I am by no means suggesting that you or anybody else study the bible based on my personal revelations. Each man must do his own praying and studying and LISTENING to what the spirit tells him about such matters. But I would suggest that all who read this to pray on the matter, and really ask God whether the view they hold is the only valid view and by necessity invalidates all other views. There is danger in elevating preterism to absolute final truth if there is any chance of a future fulfillment of prophecy, just as there is danger in elevating premillennialism to absolute final truth if prophecy has no future fulfillment. But the greatest danger to us all personally is in judging our brothers and condemning them as deceivers if it is possible they are espousing truth. It would do me little good to be 100% accurate on future fulfillment if I have to answer to God for harshly judging a brother who only saw a past fulfillment, and vice versa.
     
  10. Catchup why cannot futurist see they are the ones adding to the Bible :scratch: You just quoted Revelation chapter 22 which says "Yes I am coming soon" Then you turn and say Jesus is coming. And soon can mean over 2.000 years. That my brother is adding to the word of God.

    Picture a man and his family in a ford truck going to the Pocono Mountains for a vacation. Everything is going just fine when their truck has a blow out on the left rear tire. The man gives all he has to keep the truck under control however nothing works and the truck flips over and over until it lands of the road.

    The man and his wife are badly huart and trapped in the truck so there small child looks for a phone to call for help :pray: The small child see a phone that is back up on the road and calls for help. The child tells the operator what happened and she said the police and emergency ambulance would be there soon.

    The child goes back to the truck and says help will be here soon. 20 minutes goes by and no police or emergency ambulance. A hour goes by and no police or emergency ambulance. 5 HOURS go by and no police or emergency ambulance.

    6 hours go by and no police or emergency ambulance and buy this time the "man and his wife are dead." When suddenly the child hears the sounds of sirens and squealing tires on the surface of the road. The child says with tears in his eyes to the police and emergency people "you said you were coming soon?"

    Then the police and emergency people all laught and said: That did not mean we were coming soon. We meant once we started out we would be coming soon. I think you get the idea. Jesus is God and He cannot lie or play word games as man (Hebrews 6:18)

    Jesus did indeed return soon just as he said he would. Just as that small child looked for help soon. So did the saints who were being truubled with tribulations by the undelieving Jews. They look for Jesus to return soon taking vengeance on them who troubling them. (2 Thessalonians 1:1-12) And that is not adding to the Bible.
     
  11. But Willis brother your statement is telling us we cannot trust the Bible because the Bible's tell us "the battle is the Lord's." The Bible also says in 1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one cannot touch him.

    We preterist are NOT saying that satan has no power over the "unsaved people" in the world. We are saying satan has NO power over God's saints for God keeps them from "all evil." This is not our opinion, proclaiming that truth. This is (inspired writ, i.e., God's opinion) brother.
     
  12. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
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    The devil has no power that God doesn't allow him to have! Weak minds are his forte! Rebuke him resist evil and he shall flee!!!
     
  13. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    I will repeat... I have no desire to continue this line of discussion.
     
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Thanks for posting on that GW :) For me getting this right from a historical perspective is vital.
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Glad it helped Phoenix. I hope you can read some of Kenneth Gentry's book online that I linked over there (Before Jerusalem fell). It's good reading.

    With you in the victory of Christ,
    GW
     
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