Antichrist one person?

[GW]

Originally posted by Willis Deal

It is impossible that premillennialism was a 19th century invention since all the biblical authors in the first century were looking forward to the coming of Christ at a future time.

I've seen some quotes from early believers already, and in every instance they were making reference to the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as being fulfilled. If you have some quotes from early christians stating that Jesus had already returned then that might make some interesting reading, since all the ones I've read were still looking forward to the return of Christ, resurrection of the dead, etc.

It is only dispensationalism with its Rapture view and Israel/Church distinction that was an invention of the 19th century.

Post-trib Premillennialism [Chiliasm] was held by a segment of early fathers such as Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and Tertullian -- yet their view was opposed by a great many who were AMILLLENNIALISTS, and premillennialism was finally and officially denounced as a heresy in 431AD at the Council of Ephesus.

The early Church had very many well known figures who taught that the great tribulation was past. The Early Church Fathers knew that the AoD happened at that time that the Romans came in 66-70AD, and they also knew that the Christians did indeed flee Judaea in 66AD according to our Lord's prophecy. Here is a sampling of their statements:

Augustine (300s AD)
"Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown."


Chrysostom (300s AD)
"For this it seems that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate. Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple. For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, 'But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand.' He referred them to Daniel. And by 'abomination' He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, 'of desolation.' Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be WHILE SOME OF THEM ARE ALIVE, therefore He said, 'When YE see the abomination of desolation.' (On Matthew 24:1,2)


Eusebius (325)
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus."

 

[GW]

Willis Deal,

We have on record at least two great Early Church Fathers that arrived at full preterist conclusions at some point in their ministries. No doubt many in the early Church believed the Advent of Christ had come and fulfilled its purpose -- yet many of those Christians were later not found within the pale of Roman Orthodoxy and their beliefs of a completed work of Christ were suppressed. Nevertheless the belief remained and was taught that the Great Tribulation was 66-70AD [see Augustine, Eusebius, Chrysostom, Clement] and then we find these fully preterist statments:

From The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

"Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again."

"O God of spirits and of all flesh, who hast trampled down death and overthrown the devil, and given life to thy world, do thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of thy servants, names, who have fallen asleep, in a place of light, in a place of verdure, in a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing are fled away. Pardon every sin committed by them in word or deed or thought, for thou art a good God and Lover of man, for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, for thou only art without sin and thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy word is truth."


ATHANASIUS: (AD 296-372):
"So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands

 

[RKF]

CAN you say BALONEY.......

 

[RKF]

Sorry!

 

[RKF]

One flaw Luke was dead before the overthrowing in 70ad

 

[GW]

Dear RKF:

It really doesn't help your case to just say stuff like "baloney." You do need to use substance when responding to posts that assert otherwise than what you have been taught to believe.

I have just listed the fact that many in the Early Church believed that the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation was FULFILLED in 66-70AD (the bible also teaches this).

Next, I even showed two well-respected ECFs that suggest that there was only ONE advent of Christ that was fulfilled (which also the bible teaches -- the O.T. prophets only saw ONE messianic advent).

Finally, the bible itself proves that the AoD and the great tribulation were fulfilled when the Romans came and razed Jerusalem (and many from F.F. Bruce to John Wesley to Augustine believe this). Luke 21:20-22 shows that to be the case -- also the parallel passage of Matthew 24:15-20 is about the very same AoD the great tribulation that Luke claims would be fulfilled when Jerusalem fell. Simply comparing Luke 21:20-22 to Matthew 24:15-20 shows that the events described there are PAST.

 

[Debbie]

Matthew 24 is describing the wrath of God.
The term antichrist is used to describe the end time mouth of the beast, & most people know who we are referring to. It's just terminology & he turns out to be an antichrist,denying Jesus, so the term fits. The term also fits some heresies:denying that Jesus is not God, etc.
Referring to the end time mouth of the beast as antichrist is scripturally correct & is referring to one person in particular, whom we do not yet know who he is. He does not have desire for women, so I figure he's gay.

 

[JohnK]

You say that we mustn't use worldly wisdom to decipher the bible, yet you say that the antichrist has something to do with computerchips? As some wise members have pointed out, the antichrist is not one man, and it cannot be, because there are many passages in the bible that point to the fact that it is not one man:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

And again:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So you see, it is not me that is interpreting the bible to my own liking or using my own worldly wisdom, but instead, I use the bible to decpher itself, as should everybody. If you use outside events to interpret the bible, then you will come up with meanings that are outside of the bible, and that, you must avoid.

I am not posting this reply as a means of belittling anyone for their own interpretations, but instead, I am hoping that anyone who reads this, whether they disagree or agree, it will move them to further study this subject, so that they will gain greater understanding. I never immediately discount anyone's interpretation simply because at first it goes against what I believe, but instead, I examine their testimony based upon what the bibe says, not what CNN, or any other author other than the bible's own. Please do this for yourself also.

And please don't forget that Christ did say that he will come as a thief in the night. That means that it will be a great surprise. If things were to materialize in the literal sense, such as computer chips being implanted, which prevented people from buying or selling food, or one man will show up and have great powers, and the moon turns to blood, the stars fall... I bet EVERYBOD will know something is terribly wrong, and then it will be no surpirse that the end has arrived, therefore, it wouldn't be a "thief in the night".

In closing, whether I am right or wrong, USE SCRIPTURE TO EXPLAIN SCRIPTURE

 

[RKF]

No, I was using what's going on in the world to show that the scriptures on prophecy are alive and are coming to pass. The possibility of the "chip" being the mark of the beast is a great possibility. What else is out there that has the same potential? Not saying 10+10=20 years till jesus returns

As for all that stuff you wrote, Eye problem .......I can't see it.........
#1 we are not in the The Kingdom of God yet
Jesus doesn't reign on earth yet
The devil is still god of this world
The great tribulation hasn't happened yet because the devil has not beeen thrown out of heaven for good as in Revelations 12:7-12
Great tribulation = wrath of satan
The final 31/2 years before the battle of armaggedon is given two names in scripture "The great tribulation" by Jesus in Matt 24:21, and the "wrath of satan" by John in Revelations 12:12. There John write " woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you having great wrath''

He said that we would not know that day, nor hour but the time we would know,

Sorry for the baloney comment!
Sometimes I let things get the best of me.

Dan 7:17 describes the beasts as nations and their rulers

Dinner time, I will write more later

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Willis Deal
My apologies to you mani, for assuming you hadn't written the post. The post reflected an eloquence and lacked the grammatical errors that usually mark your posts. I do believe you've been holding back on us.

It is impossible that premillennialism was a 19th century invention since all the biblical authors in the first century were looking forward to the coming of Christ at a future time.

I've seen some quotes from early believers already, and in every instance they were making reference to the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as being fulfilled. If you have some quotes from early christians stating that Jesus had already returned then that might make some interesting reading, since all the ones I've read were still looking forward to the return of Christ, resurrection of the dead, etc.

Hi Willis you and Thunder are two really funny brothers. The premillennialism view was really a 19th century invention of men. No one ever heard of a literal "rapture" etc before then. Looks like you will haft to do some more home work. I will start a new thread on the early christians and show how they believed Jesus had already returned. The I will show you how and when the premillennialism view was started. It is because of how the early christians believed the Lord returned that there are so many people coming to the preterist view today.

 

[RKF]

You preterest guys should bond together and start your own site because basically we are tired of hearing the trash that yall are putting out. You rely on anyone and everyone to make your point and yall have a way of twisting the scriptures. If what you are saying is true then we are now in heaven!

 

[Debbie]

Yes they are saying we are in heaven, satan is bound, & the Books of the Lamb has already been opened.
There are many preterist forums/websites, but they enjoy disrupting our threads.

 

[GW]

Manifestation, and others:

Just a quick note on history of endtimes thinking. Dispensationalism as it is taught now as an eschatological system was invented around the 1830s.

Premillennialism, on the other hand, is different from Dispensationalism on many things and was around since Papias, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and others. It was called "Chiliasm" back then (the greek word for 1000) and it was believed by many in the early Church until 431AD when it was denounced as a heresy by the majority who were Amillennialists.

Here's the scoop on the Premillennialism [Chliasm] of certain ECFs:

(1) Did NOT believe in a pretrib raputure (no one had ever heard of such a thing)
(2) Did NOT believe political Israel had any standing with Jehovah
(3) Did NOT believe in a 7 year tribulation
-----------------------------------------------------
(4) Believed in a 3 year tribulation
(5) Believed in a second coming AFTER the tribulation with no "pretrib rapture."
(6) Believed in a literal 1000 year period
(7) Believed the end of the world could occur no later than 500AD, and actually preached it would be in their own lifetimes in the 200s and 300s.



At the same time they were preaching their wild endtimes predictions and doom, the early Amillennialists were teaching a very different understanding of end times. Their view won out in Church History. More on that some other time.

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

GW and others The reason why premillennialism,is invented by men is no one ever heard of that theory in Bible times.

In contrast to historicist premillennialism, the dispensational theory of premillennialism, advanced in 1830 by John Nelson Darby has gained popularity among modern evangelicals, ascribing biblical significance to almost every new development in current world events. The second coming of Christ, and subsequent establishment of the millenial kingdom, is to be preceded by a seven year-long period known as the "Tribulation" - the Earthly activity of the Antichrist as well as the outpouring of God's wrath on mankind.

Within the premillennialist camp there are several schools of thought as to what point Christ takes the Church into heaven.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture - before the start of the Tribulation

Mid-Tribulation Rapture - at the mid-point of the Tribulation

Post-Tribulation Rapture - at the conclusion of the Tribulation

Pre-Wrath Rapture - the church will go through the great tribulation by Antichrist during the end times, but will be raptured immediately before the 'Day of the Lord' wrath, when Christ cuts short the persecution of Antichrist.

Partial Rapture - only those who are faithful in the church will be raptured or translated and the rest will either be raptured sometime during the tribulation or at its end.

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Early Preterist Statements

Can anyone tell us why we should not consider the statement made by some early church fathers? Isn't it logical to think they would have understand the writers of the New Testament.

A a matter of fact, it is not true that all of the early fathers saw these as future events, as many today seem to think. All it takes is going to the writings of the early church fathers and doing a little research to learn the truth of the matter. The church fathers back that far did not write much about Jerusalem, but some of them did. Here is a sample of a few of the earliest:

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-193-217), in The Stromata, or Miscellanies, Book 1 page 329, in The Ante- Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, placed the abomination of desolation of Daniel's 70th week prophecy, in the time of Nero. He said: ' in the one week; was He Lord. The half of the week Nero and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Gaiba, and Vitallus. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the Holy place."

Earlier ever that Clement of Alexandria, was Clement of Rome, who wrote to James and told him what Peter had to the Jews, thusly: " ' For we; said I, 'have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to the Gentiles for a testimony against you....; "When I had thus spoken, the whole multitude of the priests were in a rage, because I had foretold to them the overthrow of the temple...;' (Clement, p 94, vol. 8, The Ante-Nicene Fathers).

Even earlier that Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian (145-220) told of how the coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem was a fulfillment of predictions that had been made in Daniel 9:26. He said: Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that 'both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin; And so the times of the coming Christ, the leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

"In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated;, (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 158).

Tertullian was also a preterist in his interpretations of Zechariah 14:4. He said, " 'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives; For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives; " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 417).

Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation (i.e.the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D "...(Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch5).

There are just some examples if you would like to see more please let me know.

As one can easily see, the preterist position was taught by various writer clear back to the time of the apostles. They originally understood rightly that the time of fulfillment was to be imminent until the middle of the second century when they began to abandon that and suggest the delay/ postponement ideas. When the remaining fulfillment's associated with Christ's parousia did not occur in the physical-literal way they had expected, they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all. Premillennialism,is invented by men.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Debbie
Yes they are saying we are in heaven, satan is bound, & the Books of the Lamb has already been opened.
There are many preterist forums/websites, but they enjoy disrupting our threads.

Uhhh, no.
I am not "in Heaven", but I will be the instant I shed this earthly tent, as will you, and any other member of Christs Body, contrary to the futurist teaching that physically dead Christians do not go to heaven until Christ returns.

Yes however, you are correct in citing that preterists accept the Biblical truth that, Satan is bound today.
Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).
This has not been, nor ever shall be reversed.

Now, you may "wish" he isn't bound today, so you can blame him for all our transgressions, instead of accepting personal responsibility as I do, but that "wish" of yours will do very little to break the chains that hold him today.
Satan is defeated, isn't it high time you started acting like it?

If what preterists believe and teach is true, (and it is) then we have a God that kept his word and came a 2nd time, on time, as promised, within the lifetime/generation of the people who recieved the promise, and we today are living in his presence, never to be seperated again. Praise God!

As for this being "your forum", I am unaware of anything in the "Christian Forums" TOS that claims these threads are for "futurists only".

This section is for "Christians Only", but for Christians of all denominations and slants to gather together and fellowship as one body.

Nowhere in "Christian Forums" does it make a claim that Preterists are not "Christians".

If you wish to make that claim however, please do so, so everyone here can know your bias up front and we can deal with it from the scriptures.

Your Brother in Christ
P70

 

[GW]

While I don't believe premillennialism was held by anyone in the first Church, Papias who was alive in the 70s AD as a child did grow up and adapt a literal 1000 years with many funny notions about it. He says he got it by some other guy -- Eusebius later considered Papias to be very short on mental capacity due to many strange things Papias believed, among them being his belief in a literal 1000 years paradise.

It is just as true that there were many Amillennialists at that same time, which we get from a statement from Justin Martyr (that you may also have seen).

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by GW
While I don't believe premillennialism was held by anyone in the first Church, Papias who was alive in the 70s AD as a child did grow up and adapt a literal 1000 years with many funny notions about it. He says he got it by some other guy -- Eusebius later considered Papias to be very short on mental capacity due to many strange things Papias believed, among them being his belief in a literal 1000 years paradise.

It is just as true that there were many Amillennialists at that same time, which we get from a statement from Justin Martyr (that you may also have seen).

A agree GW. This is just one of the many reasons why I became a preterist over 20 years ago. There were many who had strange ideas about the things in the Bible. All one has to do is do their homework to find these things out. The sad part is their strange ideas became apart of the understanding of the Church.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by Debbie
Yes they are saying we are in heaven, satan is bound, & the Books of the Lamb has already been opened.
There are many preterist forums/websites, but they enjoy disrupting our threads.

It's just nice to see so many preterists here. Most of us preterists here are evangelical Christians!

God bless.

 

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by RKF
You preterest guys should bond together and start your own site because basically we are tired of hearing the trash that yall are putting out. You rely on anyone and everyone to make your point and yall have a way of twisting the scriptures. If what you are saying is true then we are now in heaven!

RKF if preterist are putting out trash as you say why then are so many futurist becoming preterist and not one preterist has returned to the futurist camp?

Please bless us with just one name of a preterist who basically found out the ptererist view was trash and returned to the futurist camp. Just one name and proof please.