Antichrist comes out from the church

[JulieB67]

Sorry, I cannot grasp what you are saying. Its all seems nonsensical to me.

I'll break it down without using the word bible. My main point was that the "Lord's day" in the Greek manuscripts does not mean Sunday. It's man that added that tradition.

The Greek word for "Lord's" from the manuscripts is-

2960 -kuriakos from 2962- belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesu):- Lord's.

That's it. No Sunday in the meaning.

No matter what help study or lexicon you're looking at doesn't change the fact that the above meaning is what is in the Greek manuscripts. And since we know it doesn't mean Sunday we have to look at that verse again and see what the scripture is really saying.

Plus you seem to think since the word "soon" was used, it means that the events in Revelation were going to happen John's generation. I stated that Christ also says he will come "quickly" and we know he didn't come in that generation. So we have to remember we are on God's time table.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Colossians 2:14 "Blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;"

The animal sacrifice ordinances were done "nailed to the cross" with the blood sacrifice of Jesus dying on the cross. Those ordinances were written by Moses and pointed forward to Jesus.

Matthew 5:17 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The other laws given to Moses on the mountin and the ten commandments written by the finger of GOD can not be fulfilled only kept.

Romans 3:31 KJV
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Matthew 5:17-19 King James Version
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Do you want to be called great in the kingdom of heaven or called the least in the kingdom of heaven?)

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

The sabbath days spoken here are the cerimonial sabbaths that were part of the "ordinances that was against us" not the Weekly Sabbath established at creation.

Isaiah 66:22-23 King James Version

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Context is in the new earth

 

[JulieB67]

The sabbath days spoken here are the cerimonial sabbaths that were part of the "ordinances that was against us" not the Weekly Sabbath established at creation.

The law hasn't changed I believe that. But let's break down Sabbath, it means rest in the Hebrew. Christ became our Passover and Sabbath. And it's him that we put our rest, so any Christian doing that would not be breaking the law of keeping the Sabbath.

In the Colossians 2:16 verse it means the Sabbath or day of the weekly repose. So we are talking about the weekly sabbath in this verse, not ceremonial sabbaths.

4521 sabbation -the Sabbath or day of weekly repose from secular avocations..This is the word used in the verse.

The verse specifically states "or sabbath days" Separating it from the meat, drink, holyday and the new moon. It means the weekly sabbath. It does not specifiy that it is some ceremonial sabbath.


Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

Most of Hebrews 4 tells us where we put our rest in today.

Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His." This is our example of where we put our rest just as God did from His -which we know is talking about creation.

The Isaiah verses are just another way of saying every month and week to week all will come and worship the Lord in the new earth.

Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."

We know burnt offerings are talked about in the new earth as well in the OT but we know Christ became the one true sacrifice for all time, just has he became our sabbath rest.

Sorry to OP for being so completely OT with all of this.

 

[parousia70]

. My main point was that the "Lord's day" in the Greek manuscripts does not mean Sunday. It's man that added that tradition.
The Greek word for "Lord's" from the manuscripts is-
2960 -kuriakos from 2962- belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesu):- Lord's.
That's it. No Sunday in the meaning.

Agreed.
The following terms are used synonymously in scripture:
The Mercy of the Lord = The Lord's Mercy
The Vengeance of the Lord = The Lord's Vengeance
The Grace of the Lord = The Lord's Grace
AND
The Day of the Lord = The Lord's Day

In Revelation, John is Hearalding the then present arrival of the Day of the Lord.

Plus you seem to think since the word "soon" was used, it means that the events in Revelation were going to happen John's generation. I stated that Christ also says he will come "quickly" and we know he didn't come in that generation. So we have to remember we are on God's time table.

Rather, God created time and in spite of your claims, He knows how to correctly communicate its passing to humans.

In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel, like you, said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant.

You say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and say that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s coming in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application new testament time imminency statements (of which there are over 100), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

Look how Jesus himself interprates "near"...
Luke 21:8
And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.

Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

In thess passages, it is clear that Jesus is using the literal meaning of the term "near" when referring to His coming, and His interpratation is authoritative for me. Is it for you?

Scripture unanimously supports the conclusion that the timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy.

If God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word (as you seem to be asserting), how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It's simple. We don't. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

 

[JulieB67]

n Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

Ezekiel 12:22 "Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying,'the days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?"

This verse totally coincides with 2nd Peter 3

II Peter 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

II Peter 3:4 "And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? for since the father fell asleep, all thing continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:...

And then goes on further still as we know,

I Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Ezekiel 12:23 "Tell them therefore, 'Thus saith the Lord God; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, "The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision' .


Ezekiel 12:24 "For there shall be no more vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel."

We are talking about an appointed time. We know there are still vain visions to this day. And every vision has not been fulfilled. So this is future.

Ezekiel 12:25 "For I am the Lord: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord God."

Ezekiel 12:27 "Son of man, behold they of the house of Israel say, 'The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off."
Again, this coincides with with 2nd Peter.

Ezekiel 12:28 "Therefore say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord God; 'There shall none of My words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God."

At the appointed time his word shall come to pass. Especially when we start to hear the scoffers more and more. God as pointed out is long suffering but when we start to see the signs and seasons laid out nothing will be prolonged any further. And more and more scoffers are just another sign.

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The operative words are when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near.

All of these things didn't happen in 70AD. No one was saying, here is Christ or there is Christ. Nation didn't rise up against nation and no one was hated of all nations and so on. This was a conflict between Rome and Jerusalem. The tribulation Christ describes is the worst that that will ever happen, past and future. And most importantly Christ did not return "immediately" after Rome vs Jerusalem in 70AD

 

[parousia70]

The operative words are when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near.

The operative principle is, HOW near will it be when we see all these things? Thousands of years away "near to God", as you claim?

When you claim "near" means thousands of years away, then What does Matt 24:33 Mean?

Your definition of near renders the pasage thusly:
"when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near to God but could still be thousands of years away to you."

Is that really what you claim Jesus was telling them?

Or, do you believe, as I do, that when God says something is near, He means literally near?

All of these things didn't happen in 70AD.

Everything up to Matt 24:33 indeed took place in the apostolic generation, Just as Jesus said it would.

No one was saying, here is Christ or there is Christ. Nation didn't rise up against nation and no one was hated of all nations and so on.

THIS refutes your claim.

This was a conflict between Rome and Jerusalem.

Rome lead a multi national coalition. the same ALL NATIONS found in Acts 2:5 were represented in the seige of Jerusalem.

The tribulation Christ describes is the worst that that will ever happen, past and future.

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matthew 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

So, scripturally speaking, there have been MANY "greatest that ever was nor ever shall be" Judgment events.

That said, AD 66-70 was indeed the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4,23; Philippians 1:6,10; Hebrews 10:25,36-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 1 Corinthians 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Jeremiah 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied. (Matthew 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

And most importantly Christ did not return "immediately" after Rome vs Jerusalem in 70AD

How long is immediately to God?
If 2000 years qualifies as near and shortly, Does 200 years qualify as Immediately to God?
500?
100?
50?
How long is Immediately to God, since you seem to be the expert on How God is bound by time?

 

[JulieB67]

The operative principle is, HOW near will it be when we see all these things? Thousands of years away "near to God", as you claim?

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

It's the generation that sees all these things come to pass, that generation will not pass until all of these things be fulfilled and that includes Christ's return seeing how that and the signs are the subject of this very chapter. And Christ starts out by saying beware of deception. Just as Paul does later on.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God when He came and destroyed them, on time, as prophesied

The disciples talked to him privately and so this was a message to Christians, not unbelieving Jews. It was something they wanted to know, about the end of the age and his return. Which is why there are warnings about not believing Christ is here or there. Why would unbelieving Jews care about that warning? They wouldn't. But Christians would.

And he says ye will be hated of all nations for "my name's sake" Meaning Christians. Again, Jews would have nothing to do with that warning.

ETA I had to leave for work but I wanted to post on the commentary etc from your Matthew 24 link. Even at the beginning it shoud give us pause,

The disciples ask Christ about the signs of the end of the age, not their nation and the signs of Christ return. So no, nothing is refuted. Quite the opposite. So anything beyond that has obviously not come into play. We are talking about the end of this present age and Christ's return. And you totally omitted Christ's warning about not being deceived in verse 4.

It's God himself that's going to bring on the vengeance and it's going to be after most have fallen in the sack with the fake Christ. That's the snare that's going to come upon the whole world. Not the conflict between Rome and Jersusalem.

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Again, it will be all about deception at that point. Which is why Paul says we must have the full armour so we can be able to stand in that "evil" day.

This has always been about God our Father vs Satan and it will play out until the very end.


If one is thinks that the entire Bible has been fulfilled and they are just waiting on Christ they are seriously setting themselves up to maybe participate in the "falling away". Because if you are waiting on the first Christ to arrive then you've missed the boat (foolish virgins, etc) and that's why Christ says don't be harvested out of season. He comes at an hour most do not expect and that's because most of the world will believe he's already here. And then bam, destruction, God's destruction, not Rome, not men's wars, etc,- God's.

The irony is too and many people don't realize this but when they say "it's been 2000 years and counting they are making the very prophesy of 2nd Peter 3 come true. That's why Peter states how God sees time. 2000 years is nothing to him, 2 days. I'm not an expert but don't have to be since Peter fills us in on how God sees time compared to us.

As for the Kings in the OT some of them stood out among the others, Solomon's wisdom was like no other, Hezekiah had a huge amount of trust, and Josiah studied the law like no others. These virtues themselves stood out and were noted for.

And we don't have a bible for every generation, this is it and it will hit with one generation. We can heed Christ's warnings or not, the choice is ours.

 

[Timtofly]

You say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and say that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s coming in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application new testament time imminency statements (of which there are over 100), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace?

Are you saying God already separated the sheep and the goats? Then who are we, if we are neither sheep or goats?

 

[Oseas]

Zechariah 11:16-17 says antichrist shall lead Israel and he is called a shepherd and he had a flock ! The word shepherd and flock are used (not a politician or king) showing that he came out from the church.

Revelation 13:3
He will receive a deadly wound probably by intelligence agency that refused his leadership, a murder plot like happened to JFK will destroy one of his eyes and he will become a one eye leader where his wound shall be healed and the world is Amazed.

Antichrist comes out from the church

The thread is correct, it is true. In fact, the birthplace of antichrist is a primitive church developed by the Apostles, but apostatized. The Apostle John explains how it was.

John 2:v.18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.The Antichrist was born from the church - see how | Friends Of Jesus (proboards.com)

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

It's the generation that sees all these things come to pass, that generation will not pass until all of these things be fulfilled and that includes Christ's return seeing how that and the signs are the subject of this very chapter. And Christ starts out by saying beware of deception. Just as Paul does later on.

But I thought you said "near" means "thousands of years away"?

Now, all of a sudden, it doesn't?

You seem to be all over the map on this.
Can you demonstrate any consistency in your position?

The disciples talked to him privately and so this was a message to Christians, not unbelieving Jews. It was something they wanted to know, about the end of the age and his return.

What age?
You have the disciples asking about the end of an age they were not yet in, nor did they have any idea was even coming!

How does that work?

Here is the "coming at the end of the age" they were asking about:

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

We are not still waiting for this coming to take place.

The irony is too and many people don't realize this but when they say "it's been 2000 years and counting they are making the very prophesy of 2nd Peter 3 come true. That's why Peter states how God sees time. 2000 years is nothing to him, 2 days. I'm not an expert but don't have to be since Peter fills us in on how God sees time compared to us.

Peter also says 1 earth day to God is Like a thousand years to Him.
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Peter's message is simply that God is not bound by time. You do know this right?
It's not a prophetic math formula to determine the passage of time in Heaven. There is NO time there.

God doesn't have near or far, shortly or a long time.
Those are exclusively HUMAN terms for how time relates to HUMANS.

Contrary to your assertion, God does not have to wait "2 days" for anything.

As for the Kings in the OT some of them stood out among the others, Solomon's wisdom was like no other,

But it was demonstrably NOT "like no other".
Jesus Christ's wisdom surpasses even Solomon's (Matthew 12:42)

So please explain How Solomon could be the King of Israel with the greatest wisdom that ever was or ever shall be?

Again, Ezekiel 5:9 states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

Was Ezekiel mistaken? Was he lying?

And we don't have a bible for every generation, this is it and it will hit with one generation. We can heed Christ's warnings or not, the choice is ours.

So your claim is those warnings were useless and irrelevant to all the previous generations of Christians who have lived and died before us? Your position is that they could ignore the warnings without consiquence, but we can't?

 

[Timtofly]

We are not still waiting for this to take place.

That happened at the Cross. They did not even have to wait for another 40 years. No one is still waiting for the Cross. It happened within hours of the OD. The Cross was the end of the age. The Cross was the last day resurrection for all those in the OT. Jesus did approach the ancient of Days, not as a Second Coming, but to present the OT redeemed, and the work of the Cross being finished, with nothing left to do at that point.

Now we are in the fulness of the Gentile harvest, waiting for the "last day" again, when the NT church is once again presented to the ancient of Days.

Then Jesus as Prince will be on earth gathering the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus will keep on ruling until all is brought into submission, Death being the last enemy. That is what Paul laid out in 1 Corinthians 15. 70AD was not a point in this 3 step process.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: 1) Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are 2) Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when 3) he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Paul hinges this process on all mankind through Adam. It is not based solely on Israel nor the Jews. Preterist have too narrow of view, and point to 70AD as a singularity point. It is not even part of the process. When Paul wrote this, 70AD was still future. So claiming a futurist view is wrong is disingenuous. Even 70AD was a futurist point of this eschatology.

Every single day that passes away is one less futurist day and one more preterist day. Preterist days keep accumulating and handed over to the historist view. 70AD was a bad "day" for Israel, no doubt. So was the Assyrian conquest in the 8th century BC when those wicked Vinyard keepers were destroyed and the northern 10 tribes scattered across the earth. Certainly that was not called a Second Coming event. It was a bad day when the Babylonians sacked the first temple and destroyed Jerusalem and those wicked were removed from the Vinyard. It was still the act of the Cross that God declared as the close of Israel as being representatives, when the temple veil was torn, top to bottom. Now all of Adam's descendants were individual representatives, not just a single family called Israel from Jacob, who wrestled with God for that very title.

 

[JulieB67]

But I thought you said "near" means "thousands of years away"?

I never said that. I said to the generation that see the signs, it's near to them. Which would yes, according to our time it's 2000 years later since it's been written.

You seem to be all over the map on this.
Can you demonstrate any consistency in your position?

I've never changed my stance. I always post the 2nd 3 Peter verses to people who say it's been 2000 years and counting. Also to the people who say things must have happened already (70 Ad..) because words like "soon" and near and "at hand" are used. 2000 years is nothing to our Father, especially in the context that's laid out in 2nd Peter 3. The earth is "of old"
So what's 2000 years when the earth has been here millions if not billions of years old. Many might not believe that and of course that's another topic -but it's a drop in the bucket to our Father and that's why he added the earth's age to give us some context of how he sees time.

What age?
You have the disciples asking about the end of an age they were not yet in, nor did they have any idea was even coming!

How does that work?

We as well as the disciples back then are currently in the 2nd world/age, the first persished,

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water,
perished:"

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The age that were are presently in is kept in store until Judgement Day. After that we will receive a new heaven and earth which will be the final one. Same earth/world, different ages.

We are not still waiting for this coming to take place.

We are not awaiting on the 1st Advent, we are waiting on the 2nd one and things must come to pass before that happens which is the point of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2nd Thess as well as Revelation.

But it was demonstrably NOT "like no other".
Jesus Christ's wisdom surpasses even Solomon's (Matthew 12:42)

We are talking about earthly kings and I don't see the problem. Each as I said had virtues among themselves (wisdom, trust, loving the law among other things) and so there were no other kings like them before or after. It didn't say that each was the "greatest" king of all time. It just said for each there was none other like them before or after.

Again, Ezekiel 5:9 states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest
judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

I still see this as future. This is directed to the entire house of Israel- all tribes, not just Judah and Benjamin which was the Babylonian conquest. The other 10 tribes had been long scattered by then. In fact several hundreds of years before Ezekiel's time they went into captivity to Assyria.

Knowing this we can safely assume this is future prophecy.

 

[parousia70]

That happened at the Cross. They did not even have to wait for another 40 years. No one is still waiting for the Cross. It happened within hours of the OD. The Cross was the end of the age.

So the Cross was the "end of the age" that the apostles were in when they asked Jesus about the signs of end of the age they were in?

Every single day that passes away is one less futurist day and one more preterist day.

Precicely. Time is running out for Futurists, it's only accumulating for preterists.

So was the Assyrian conquest in the 8th century BC when those wicked Vinyard keepers were destroyed and the northern 10 tribes scattered across the earth. Certainly that was not called a Second Coming event.

It was called a personal Coming of God to destroy the earth, however:
Micah 1:1-9

It was a bad day when the Babylonians sacked the first temple and destroyed Jerusalem and those wicked were removed from the Vinyard.

It was also the "Day of the Lord" and a "Coming of God" event:
Lamentations 2:22, Ezekiel 7:19, Ezekiel 13:2-5, Zephaniah 1:1-7

 

[parousia70]

I never said that. I said to the generation that see the signs, it's near to them. Which would yes, according to our time it's 2000 years later since it's been written.

Yet The apostles all believed and taught it was NEAR to them.
How could they have been so wrong?

James is a Prime Example, for he even Quotes Jesus form Matthew 24:33 in James 5:8-9:

Matthew 24:33
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Surely James was well aware that Jesus' coming would NOT, indeed COULD NOT be "near and at the door" UNTIL all the signs were seen, so Why would he say it WAS near and at the door in his day?

Was James mistaken? Was James Lying?

Unless you are saying that when James, a mortal human, uses the term "near and at the door" he means in "God's time" but when Jesus, who is God, uses "near and at the door" he means in mortal Human time?

Is this your position?

If so, where is this distinction taught in scripture?

 

[JulieB67]

Yet The apostles all believed and taught it was NEAR to them.
How could they have been so wrong?

I don't think they necessarily thought it would be in their life time. Peter taught of the last days and said "in the last days there shall be....and Paul taught that way as well. They always taught to be on watch for the signs and the seasons.

Unless you are saying that when James, a mortal human, uses the term "near and at the door" he means in "God's time" but when Jesus, who is God, uses "near and at the door" he means in mortal Human time?

Christ himself did not know the day or the hour at the time of teaching, only our Father. But he did know the signs and seasons and laid them out.

We can go round and round on this but I don't think either of us is going to change our minds, which is fine. We both know we get to sail our own ships.

But I am curious and have a few questions because it's obvious and correct me if I"m wrong, you believe all bible prophecy has been fulfilled and we are just waiting on Christ -what is your belief/opinion on why the world still here after some 2000 years later? What is God's purpose in letting the world go on if all has been fulfilled?

 

[ewq1938]

I never said that. I said to the generation that see the signs, it's near to them. Which would yes, according to our time it's 2000 years later since it's been written.

Which is like 2 days to Christ. If he returns 10,000 years from today, that is still very soon.

 

[parousia70]

Which is like 2 days to Christ. If he returns 10,000 years from today, that is still very soon.

So the term "soon" really has no discernable meaning when it's used in scripture... it conveys nothing usable to the reader. It is absolutely meaningless.

Do I have that right?

What about when God says an event is long way off, far away, etc?

Does that mean anything?

If 10,000 years is soon to God, How many years is a long way off or far away to God?

 

[parousia70]

I don't think they necessarily thought it would be in their life time. Peter taught of the last days and said "in the last days there shall be....and Paul taught that way as well. They always taught to be on watch for the signs and the seasons.

All the apostles believed and taught that THEY were living in the last days, at the end of the age, in the last hour.
The expectation of eschatological fulfillment in their generation is plain and plentiful and preserved for us in over 100 passages. They unambiguously testified it was imminenet, near, about to take place, in a very very little while, without delay, must shortly come to pass, before all of them had died, before that generation had passed.

Over 100 Passages.

Can you identify even one other Biblical doctrine repeated in over 100 NT passages that you likewise take to mean the exact opposite of what the passages say?

How about Grace?
There are 125 NT verses about Grace.
Do they likewise mean the opposite of what they say?

Faith?
304 NT passages about faith.
Perhaps they also mean the opposite of what they say?

Salvation?
166 passages total in scripture about salvation.
Perhaps they too should be understood to be opposite of what they say?

Or, is the Doctrine of Imminency the only one we shoud take to mean the exact opposite of what 100+ scriptural passages testify?

I would like you to address James 5:8-9.
How could James have said what he said there if he surely knew it wasn't true?

We can go round and round on this but I don't think either of us is going to change our minds, which is fine. We both know we get to sail our own ships.

I'm not here to change your mind. In fact I hope you don't change your mind.
I'm here to give our readers, especialy the lurkers and seekers who haven't made up their minds, information and contrast, so you continuing to provide a contrary view to mine is much more helpful than you coming around to my view.

But I am curious and have a few questions because it's obvious and correct me if I"m wrong, you believe all bible prophecy has been fulfilled and we are just waiting on Christ -what is your belief/opinion on why the world still here after some 2000 years later?

Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

What is God's purpose in letting the world go on if all has been fulfilled?

That is like asking what is the purpose of Isaiah 9:7?

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The never ending increase of the government of Jesus Christ is the purpose for everything.
We are the people of Hebrews 11 faith and dominon. We are the People who God has predestined that we might "establish righteousness and subdue kingdoms" as did the heroes of our Faith (Hebrews 11:33). And so we are the only nation upon earth that has been given all dominion over Heaven and earth to subdue it and establish Christ's law and rule among mankind.

The goal indeed remains that every person of every nation, through the power of the Gospel, attain unto that for which mankind was created: To love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself (Matt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27-28). We must not think that the continued existence of sin and suffering on earth invalidates the possibility or the perfection of the realization of that goal.

I do not know future events, but I am fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

 

[Petros2015]

So the term "soon" really has no discernable meaning when it's used in scripture... it conveys nothing usable to the reader. It is absolutely meaningless.

rotfl pretty much

It translates roughly to "it hasn't happened yet and it will happen later"

 

[ewq1938]

So the term "soon" really has no discernable meaning when it's used in scripture... it conveys nothing usable to the reader. It is absolutely meaningless.

It's not meaningless. It just doesn't mean soon in human understanding sometimes. Did the second coming and resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture happen already? If not, then even you know that soon is not soon to humans.