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Antichrist comes out from the church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Servant78, Mar 21, 2022.

  1. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So you decide what is literal and what is not? Do you do that to prove your own point? Do you not think all humans can decide anything to prove their points as well? I assume you are referring to this verse:

    "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

    I am a literal one of His servants. So the time must shortly come to pass even for me. This does not say his servants of the first century. It is referring to all who read the book of Revelation.

    "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

    The time is "at hand" until this book is no longer read nor heard. For you to still use Revelation to make any point means that the time Revelation is no longer relevant has not yet happened.

    "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

    Until these words are sealed up, they will remain relevant to all those in Christ. No commentator nor early church father had a visit from the Lamb to declare this book sealed and fulfilled.
     
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  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It did not mean Sunday for the Lord's Supper.

    It did not mean God created everything on a Sunday. Genesis 2:4

    "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

    The word "Kyriaké" is just "of the Lord". Context of the next word "day" is also important, not just the word "Lord". This word is only used twice in the NT. Not sure how you can get your "always" point from Scripture. Sure the Greek speaking people may have miss interpreted this one verse and used a similar phrase as common lingo, but that usage is definitely not frequent in Scripture itself. In the NT is was called the first day of the week.

    If you think John meant in this very single verse Sunday, then John would have said the first day of the week, because that would be his Sunday. This is why many get the day of the Lord, and the day of the Lord's vengeance so confused. Scripture is not talking about a time from sunrise to sunset on any given Sunday. And no NT author ever used kyriake for Sunday. They would have used the Aramaic/Hebrew word of the day. Even if John wrote to 7 Greek speaking churches in Greece.

    I looked up the Greek usage of the word. It is a girl's name meaning the seventh day of creation, Sunday. I hate to spoil this notion. Saturday was the 7th day of creation. The Sabbath Day. This means some Greek converts to Judaism thought Monday was the first day of the week, and Sunday was the 7th. In Hebrew Sunday was the first day of the week, and Saturday was the 7th. Perhaps you have better information than I can find to prove your point?
     
  4. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Glad to see you understand the cosmic week of 7,000 years
     
  5. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    By recognizing that Easter is on Sunday, the day Christ arose from the grave, Christians acknowledge that the the seventh day of the week is Saturday the Sabbath. However most do not keep it as commanded in Exodus 20:8

    Mark 16:9 King James Version
    9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    Mark 16 King James Version
    16 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
    2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
     
  6. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    That's funny because this is the only time that the "the Lord's day" is used. So where in the Bible has it always meant Sunday?

    Again, you are going by man's tradition, not God's.

    Greek word 2960 -Kuriakos from 2962 -belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus) -Lord's.

    That's it. Traditions have added to this.

    But if you want to believe that John had to point out that he was in the Spirit on Lord's day which was Sunday and heard as voice as if a great trumpet and told to write about the past, present and future of that very Sunday -again which makes no sense at all that's your prerogative.

    Christ became our Passover/Sabbath. Meaning we need to put our rest in him every day of the week. Plus Easter is just another word for Passover. Meaning Christian should celebrate the Passover in Christ's name. And that's always been 14 days after the Spring equinox and traditions have changed that as well. Spring equinox always meant the first of the year in the Hebrew calendar.
     
  7. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Thats how definitions of words are made - examining how they were used by people. There is no God's lexicon.

    So "the tradition of men" is how human language works.

    You can find the word in Didache, in the letters of Ignatius etc.

    If you think its "funny", then you have probably never learned a second language, not to say an ancient one.

    Not sure why are you complicating the text so much. It simply says that John received the Revelation - where (on Patmos) and when (on Sunday).

    The revelation itself was about what had to happen soon. Not on Sunday or what you are saying.

    The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...
    I, John, your brother and companion...was on the island of Patmos...
    On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet...
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
  8. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    The traditions of men make void the word of God. As Christ so stated himself. I asked you where in the Bible has Sunday ever meant the Lord's day? I didn't ask you about the traditions of men. I'm strictly a scripture girl who uses the Strong's Concordance to take things back because many times words and meanings can get lost in translation. But this one is simple. It does not mean Sunday in the scriptures.

    Even in a verse like this after the resurrection, it was still called the first day of the week in the NT,

    Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

    So I ask again, were in the Bible has Sunday ever been called the Lord's day? Do you have an answer to that?

    It's not complicated at all if we let the scriptures speak for themselves. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. (another way of saying the Day of the Lord) The trump has just sounded and Christ is in front of him and gives him the revelation.

    If we take your meaning, John would have said, I was in the Spirit on the first day of the week. Because that's what John called Sunday.

    No he speaks with reverence, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard a great voice as if a trumpet. This is not some normal day of the week.

    I'm not stating Sunday I'm suggesting you seem to think he was given this revelation on a Sunday and told to write about the past present and future.

    As for it to happen soon, Christ also states he comes quickly, has he returned? We have to remember we are on God's time table.

    Again, we need to let the scriptures speak for themselves. The Lord's day has not happened yet so much of that time frame is future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
  9. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I cannot grasp what you are saying. Its all seems nonsensical to me.

    Bible is not a word lexicon.
     
  10. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    There is no symbolism behind the word "soon". Thats not my decision, thats how metaphores work.
     
  11. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Look at how the word was used in ancient Greek. Thats all I can say. You can read Didache or Ignatius, for the start.
     
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The very first time God used this was in Genesis 2:4:

    "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

    Some want to go with the literal word day, which in the times of the Bible all the way from creation to the first century, "day" was the standard 12 hours of sunlight. The modern usage of day has changed to mean 24 hours. But to the original readers "day" was only the period of daylight itself. Yet when associated with the Lord God it is a different period of time altogether. It could never be a day of week. The definition of this word has nothing to do with any day of the week. It has to do with a period of time reserved for the Lord God only. The Greek word referenced only means "of the Lord".

    The other place in the New Testament is concerning the Lord's Supper. As pointed out in the NT it does not mean Sunday. In fact it was Christianity and the Byzantine church that changed the Greek name for Sunday itself and used the term, the Lord's Day following the church of Rome that did indeed call it the Lord's Day. If a first century writer and reader were referring to the actual Sunday they would avoid the use of the pagan name of the time, and just call it the first day of the week. Or the day after the Sabbath which is about the only named day of the week in Hebrew. Genesis 2:4 is not referring to the Sabbath nor a particular day of the week. It was referring to the first 1,000 years on earth after the 6 days of creation.

    All Bible scholars will object to that point, because Israel did indeed forget the Sabbath Day, even though the Commandment was given as: Remember the Sabbath. The subheading or actual command that was written was: 6 days shalt thou labor. Which now only has the commandment as a weekly connotation as well.

    Then in Deuteronomy we are farther removed from the original intent by just observing the Sabbath. John is pretty specific in Revelation 20 that the day of the Lord is a 1,000 year period of time. There was no subtle symbolism in that regard. Yet no one wants to admit the literal, and stick firmly with both the 1,000 years and the term itself, Lord's Day as both being symbolic, instead of one being the literal meaning of the symbolic term the Lord's Day.


    But one cannot use a term from 200 years after writing Revelation and state that is why John did that. The reason why the Greeks use it is because John was the first to use the term the Lord's Day. Yet John was not referring to an event dozens of years prior known as Resurrection Sunday. He was referring to the last 1,000 years of current reality. The last 6,000 years has been given over to sin and disobedience to God. Yet God has a right to declare some time of current creation as only pertaining to God and God's will, where sin and rebellion do not exist. In fact Peter tells us not to be ignorant in 2 Peter 3:8, yet here we are today still arguing over the ignorance of human understanding and human understanding seems to rule the day, literally. No one seems willing to call certain time periods the Lord's Day. It is as Peter declares. Human understanding accepts the same old, same old, since creation, just more sin and wickedness, when in reality there was already one Lord's Day and there will be another Lord's Day. Both lasting for 1,000 literal years of man's time scale.
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It was only used centuries later after John wrote Revelation. It was not in use in the first century pagan hellenized world.
     
  14. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Except you apply metaphor where metaphor does not belong. That is the problem, not the metaphor.
     
  15. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Check your facts. You say untrue things.
     
  16. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    I said that the word "soon" cannot be a metaphor.
     
  17. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    You relly missed the issue in my post.
     
  18. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    I thought your point was that Christians should be looking at Saturday as the Sabbath instead of Sunday. I was just stating that we should put our Sabbath rest in Christ every day of the week since he himself became our Passover.


    Colossians 2:14 "Blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;"

    Colossians 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triuphing over them in it."

    Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

    Colossians 2:17 "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."




     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I did, and you have not brought out any either. Tell me one reason why ancient Greeks prior to the first century would call Sunday by the actual resurrection of Jesus Christ?
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    "Soon" in regards to what specific text? Metaphor is not one word paragraphs. It takes more than one word to even make a sentence.
     
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