Antichrist, Beast, False Prophet

[victorinus]

Where do you find Rome or the Pope in prophecy? There's not one verse that implies Rome has anything to do with the end-times. Can you quote ONE?

thanks

 

[victorinus]

Babylon is the World

babylon is that great city -
that is what the bible says

 

[Revealing Times]

babylon is that great city -
that is what the bible says

You need to learn what that means.....I guess. I have seen your posts around a long time, not being mean spirited, but there is a reason I don't usually reply brother.

 

[GUANO]

what is this based on? -
I only see two beasts in the apocalypse

Rev 13 has 2 beasts but also mentions the dragon-beast from other chapters. 3 in total. These beasts are not people. The beast from the sea (called antichrist) in particular is composed of 10 kings, 7 kingdoms, and 8 other kings (lol). The red-dragon beast is ridden by a woman who is also identified as a city...

Anyone who thinks Revelation is 'simple' and 'straight-forward' has only ever read commentaries and study guides written by other people who have also probably only ever read commentaries and study guides.

The Beast from the earth with 2 horns is the one that causes all to receive the mark...
Rev 13...
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men
saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads...

 

[GUANO]

do you understand why john would seemingly introduce himself three times within nine verses of the first chapter? -
no one does -
no one even tries to explain it -
when I first heard it suggested that john the baptist wrote the first apocalypse, I thought it was ridiculous
-but-
after many years of research, I find it is the only thing that explains all the confusion over what the apocalypse is all about -
my blog has all the details on this

I'll try...

Rev 1:1 Mentions John in the Introduction of the chapter... Which would not originally have been part of the actual letter sent to the churches...
Rev 1:4 Is the salutation of the letter itself...
Rev 1:9, John is talking about how he was PREVIOUSLY in patmos and received visions and wrote the book that is contained in the letter that he's writing...

This is what happens to a good introduction when a book that is also a letter contains another book inside of it (lol)...

 

[victorinus]

Rev 13 has 2 beasts but also mentions the dragon-beast from other chapters. 3 in total. These beasts are not people.

the dragon is not a beast, it gives power to the beasts

 

[victorinus]

but there is a reason I don't usually reply brother

what is it?

 

[victorinus]

I'll try...

Rev 1:1 Mentions John in the Introduction of the chapter... Which would not originally have been part of the actual letter sent to the churches...
Rev 1:4 Is the salutation of the letter itself...
Rev 1:9, John is talking about how he was PREVIOUSLY in patmos and received visions and wrote the book that is contained in the letter that he's writing...

This is what happens to a good introduction when a book that is also a letter contains another book inside of it (lol)...

nice try -
take a look at eusebius and victorinus -
neither one recognizes the churches or antipas
-but-
they know about the apocalypse -
makes you wonder what they were looking at -
the first apocalypse written by john the baptist

 

[GUANO]

To understand prophetic symbolism and speculate (because that's all anyone can do) as 'close as you can' in a logical way, not relying on your own intuition or feelings about it is to read all of the prophetic scriptures (prophets speaking in the Name of God, spiritual poems and proverbs attributed to David and Solomon, and descriptions of dreams and visions by the prophets) mostly contained in books like Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and others and start to catalog all of the symbolic language because those books contain many prophecies which have already come to pass as well as angels in the visions and in the poems revealing the meaning of the various 'images' that will be seen commonly throughout all of the prophets' visions.

For instance, it is not logical to think of an 'earthquake' in Revelation to mean an actual, literal earthquake. Earthquakes are mentioned and described by the prophets probably more than 20 times and out of those 20 times there are probably more than 10 where it directly relates an "earthquake" to social or political upheaval—and the other times where it is not directly identified it can be safely assumed by the language and context itself. When an individual has a dream about an earthquake or flood, they are dreaming about the threat of upheaval and chaos in their individual lives. The Prophets are prophesying over cities, kingdoms, and empires (the 3rd heavenly realm) and the actors in these visions represent 'offices' and 'authorities'. In this realm, individual people aren't even seen as the important actors they are only "dust" and "the earth" and they are formed into 'seas', 'valleys', and 'mountains'. Man's life and works are the 'grass', 'trees', and 'fruit'... Living creatures like 'beasts of the field' are spirits that roam over the earth and are understood by people about as much as the dirt and plants understand that they are being walked on and eaten by them—and likewise the beasts just know that they're hungry and devour eachother. In this "Kingdom of Heaven", Jesus Christ is a sower who casts his seeds into a field, and while sleeping his enemy came and sowed tares in it... The wheat and tares have been growing for over 2,000 years since this prophecy and the reaper has still not come so you gotta appreciate the "high level" of some of these things.

 

[Rik Brooks]

Thank you so much for the link. It's going to take a while to get through it because of taking notes but it is very valuable.

 

[GUANO]

nice try -
take a look at eusebius and victorinus -
neither one recognizes the churches or antipas
-but-
they know about the apocalypse -
makes you wonder what they were looking at -
the first apocalypse written by john the baptist

I'm familiar with Victornius and Eusebius. Are you saying that they did not believe there was an ancient church in Pergamon and the other 6 places mentioned or that they just did not mention them in their [very few] survived writings. I think Eusebius' only surviving work was on the Apocalypse...

Why do you think John the Baptist wrote the book of Revelation? Do I just need to read back a bit?

 

[Hal A Peno]

dfgv

 

[Revealing Times]

what is it?

In your Apocalypse Thread you asked me to get out of your thread so obviously you don't like push back, and I think you are pretty much in error on every post, so we would just be at odds on every post, so I just don't reply, if you liked push back I might, but seeing as you don't I just decided to avoid your posts for the most part.

I Don't like to be at odds with my brothers over prophecy, there are many other things we probably agree on.

 

[Revealing Times]

Everyone has their opinions

IF you are looking for VERIFIABLE FACTUAL EVIDENCE to cut through all the non-sense, here is a good place to start

IS AMERICA - Great City Harlot Mystery Babylon Revelation 17? The Evidence is Overwhelming!

easy reading, comprehensive

I have seen that site before. Make your argument, because America is not nor can it be Babylon. Babylon is not even a place. We can debate it, but I have already read all of those IDEAS as put forth by many. My argument against their arguments is laid out here.....On this very site...in a thread about Babylon.

Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

 

[Hal A Peno]

cfgjhn

 

[GUANO]

the dragon is not a beast, it gives power to the beasts

The first vision it is a red dragon seen in the "heavens" with seven heads and ten horns. The second vision it is a "scarlet colored beast" (red)with seven heads and ten horn that is ridden by a woman. Even if you want to separate the two you end up with 3 beasts and a dragon... If you combine the red dragon with seven heads and 10 horns with the beast from the sea with seven heads and 10 horns then who is the dragon that gives power to the beast? Itself? I've read this stuff many times. We aren't even talking about the meaning of any of it yet lol.

 

[Hal A Peno]

zsdryg

 

[GUANO]

I have seen that site before. Make your argument, because America is not nor can it be Babylon. Babylon is not even a place. We can debate it, but I have already read all of those IDEAS as put forth by many. My argument against their arguments is laid out here.....On this very site...in a thread about Babylon.

Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

Your whole theory relies on your own supernatural experience and the assumption that the seven hills ARE the seven kings. The text itself says there are seven hills and EIGHT kings and it does not say that the seven hills and seven plus one king are the same 'thing'... I'm not saying it's not true though, but it's a speculative theory just like everyone else who ever speculated about revelation. To claim to know it as a certain fact is like claiming to be the author lol.

 

[Rik Brooks]

Isn't it odd how many divergent opinions there are on this subject? I do have to smile though that everyone is so polite about it.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

I have seen that site before. Make your argument, because America is not nor can it be Babylon. Babylon is not even a place. We can debate it, but I have already read all of those IDEAS as put forth by many. My argument against their arguments is laid out here.....On this very site...in a thread about Babylon.

Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

Obviously you have not read what is posted on that site, because I have yet to find anyone saying the things presented at that site.

I do not debate.

I do not take it upon myself to explain to people what they should believe.

I simply provide Scripture and verifiable facts.

If you wish to believe Babylon is not a place, that is your prerogative.

But you may wish explain why would every ship master weep and wail over a non-existent place that was destroyed in one hour.

And how a non-existent place could stop purchasing merchants physical goods.

And how the sound of workman would never be heard at all ever again in a non-existent place.

Or how everyone would stand afar off from a non-existent place for fear of her torment.

Respectfully,
Lee