Anti-War voice being heard?

Gunny

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The curtain will come down on the peaceniks

By Mark Steyn



The "peace" marches? Oh, I've nothing to say. Can't improve on Tony Blair, looking out of his window and observing:

"If there are 500,000 on that march, that is still less than the number of people whose deaths Saddam has been responsible for.


"If there are one million, that is still less than the number of people who died in the wars he started."


In other words, if it's a numbers game, those are the ones that matter. I'm tempted to leave it there and go skiing, but let me come back to it in a roundabout sort of way. The other day I got a copy of Andrew Roberts' new book, Hitler And Churchill: Secrets Of Leadership, which sounds like some lame-o management techniques cash-in, but is, in fact, a very useful take on very familiar material. Most of us have read a gazillion books about the Second World War (when I say "most of us," I exclude the fellow in Hyde Park on Saturday holding a placard with the words "PEACE IN OUR TIME," and even then I kind of hope he was some waggish saboteur, since the notion that the peaceniks, though deluded, are that ignorant is a little mind-boggling). But, comparing Britain's and Germany's wartime leaders directly, you can't help feeling that victory and defeat were predetermined: As Philip Hensher neatly put it in his review of Roberts' essay, "Churchill knew very well what Hitler was like, but Hitler had no idea what sort of man Churchill was."


Just so. When you read Hitler's private assessments of the man who stood between him and world domination, they're just silly: Churchill was "that puppet of Jewry." OK, that's fine as a bit of red meat tossed to the crowd when you're foaming at Nuremberg, but as a serious evaluation of your opponent made in the quiet of your study it's simply ... inadequate. This failure to engage with reality is particularly telling when you look at how each leader dealt with setbacks: During the Blitz, Churchill would stand on the roof and watch the Luftwaffe bombing London; in the morning, he would walk through the ruins. Hitler, by contrast, never visited bombed-out areas and, just in case the driver should take a wrong turn, he drove the streets with his car windows curtained. His final days were spent in a bunker -- the perfect ending for a man whose worldview depended on keeping reality at bay no matter how relentlessly it closed in on him.


Hitler's problem was that he was over-invested in ideology. He'd invented a universal theory -- the wickedness of the international Jewish conspiracy -- and he persisted in fitting every square peg of cold hard reality into that theory's round hole. Thus, Churchill must be a "puppet of Jewry." As a general rule, when it's reality versus delusion, bet on reality. That held true in the Cold War. Moral equivalists like Harold Pinter insisted that America and the Soviet Union were both equally bad. But the traffic across the Berlin Wall was all one way. East German guards were not unduly overworked trying to keep people from getting in. The Eastern bloc collapsed because it was a lie, and the alternative wasn't.


Well, the Soviet Union's gone now so Pinter no longer has to observe the pox-on-both-their-houses niceties. Addressing the demonstrators on Saturday, he declared that the U.S. is "a country run by a bunch of criminals ... with Tony Blair as a hired Christian thug."


Got that? It's not Saddam who's the thug, it's Tony. It's not the Baathist killers from Tikrit who are the bunch of criminals, it's the Republican Party. It's not the million-man murderer of Baghdad who's the new Hitler, it's George W. Bush. It's not the Iraqi one-party state with its government-controlled media that "crushes dissent," it's the White House. It's not the Wahhabis who are the fundamentalists, it's Bush, Blair and the other Christians. It's not Osama bin Laden who's the terrorist, it's American foreign policy. Supporting the continued enslavement of the Iraqi people is "pacifist," but it's "racist" for America to disagree with the UN, even though it's Colin Powell and Condi Rice doing the disagreeing and the fellows they're disagreeing with are a bunch of white guys from Europe.


The new Universal Theory, to which 99% of Saturday's speakers and placards enthusiastically subscribed, is that, whatever the problem, American imperialist cowboy aggression is to blame. In fact, it's not so different from the old Universal Theory, in that the international Zionist conspiracy is assumed to be behind the scenes controlling the cowboys: Bush is a "puppet of Jewry," just like Churchill was -- notwithstanding the fact that America's Jews voted overwhelmingly for Gore. But, if you believe that the first non-imperialist great power in modern history is the source of all the world's woes, then logic is irrelevant. "It's all about oil"? Yes, for the French, whose stake in Iraqi oil is far more of a determining factor than America's ever has been or will be. "America created Saddam"? No, not really, the French and Germans and Russians have sold him far more stuff, and Paris built him that reactor which would have made him a nuclear power by now, if the Israelis hadn't destroyed it in the Eighties.


But, as Colin Powell and Jack Straw have surely learned by now, there's no real point doing the patient line-by-line rebuttal: Nobody's interested in French oil contracts or German arms sales or even Saddamite corpse tallies because it doesn't fit into the Universal Theory which insists that everything can be explained by the Evil of America. On the other hand, the indestructible belief that "over 4,000" civilians were killed by U.S. bombs in Afghanistan is impervious to scientific evidence because it accords perfectly with the Universal Theory.


How far are the "peace" crowd prepared to go? Well, they've stopped talking about their little pet cause of the Nineties, East Timor, ever since the guys who blew up that Bali nightclub and whoever's putting together those "Osama" audio tapes started listing support for East Timor's independence as one of the Islamist grievances against the West. But why be surprised? In fall 2001, being pro-gay and pro-feminist didn't stop the left defending an Afghan regime that disenfranchised women and executed homosexuals. Yet these are the same fellows who insist that a secular regime like Iraq's would never make common cause with Islamic fundamentalists, apparently requiring a higher degree of intellectual coherence of Saddam than of themselves.


You can believe all this if you want, just as Harold Pinter believed that the Iron Curtain was only there to prevent fleeing Westerners from swamping Warsaw Pact social services. But it depends on keeping reality at arm's length or beyond: You're metaphorically driving around with the curtains drawn. Perhaps that's why so many of the "peace" crowd get ever so touchy if you question their slogans. If you ask a guy with an "It's All About Oil" sign what he thinks of the recent contracts signed between Iraq and France's Total Fina Elf, he looks blank for a moment and then accuses you of wanting to crush dissent. It's not fair, you're trying to pull back his curtain.


I bet on reality. The defining difference between Hitler and Churchill is that, while the former presided over a court of sycophants, the latter thrived on argument and antagonism. (Lord Alanbrooke's diaries are especially recommended in this regard.) He had a not untypical background for an Englishman of his time and class -- an unexceptional public school education, a bit of colonial adventuring. It's what the multiculturalists would have us believe was a narrow and blinkered upbringing. Yet an English public-school debating-society approach to life served him in good stead: He was utterly at ease with disagreement, quite happy to have any assertion tested. In Saturday's demonstrations, the heirs to Churchill's Harrow schoolmasters were well represented -- lots of teachers and professors. Yet the difference between now and then is their reluctance to expose their assertions to debate -- these days few institutions are as aggressively protective of their fragile little pieties as the academy.


Well, so be it. If everybody thought like Saturday's marchers, it would be curtains for all of us. But we're not quite there yet, and reality will be breaking in very soon. Saying that Bush is the real "weapon of mass destruction" is awful cute the first nine or ten thousand times, but only if you live in Toronto or Paris or Madrid. Viewed by an Iraqi from the reality of Basra, it's pathetic
 
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Gunny

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Evangelion

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The Bear -

Just a reminder......

Thankyou for the reminder that the destruction of the WTC was the work of OBL, not Saddam Hussein. This is another reason why the US should be directing her efforts in another direction entirely. i.e. bringing OBL to justice, as her president promised.

His exact words were:

  • I haven't heard much from him recently, which means he could be in a cave that doesn't have an opening to it anymore, or could be in a cave where he can get out, or may have tried to slither out into neighboring Pakistan. We don't know. But I will tell you this: We're going to find him.

    [...]

    Now we're on the hunt, and we're chasing one or two, three or four, 20 individuals at a time, and this is pretty rugged country as you know. So we are slowly but surely chasing down every single lead.

    If they think they can hide from the United States, they're making a terrible mistake, again. We'll get them. We'll bring them to justice. I wish I could give you the exact moment, but I can't.
But it now appears that OBL is no longer on the agenda. Instead, the US prefers to attack Iraq - for reasons which have yet to be substantiated.

So your reference to the WTC is a reminder that the original priorities have long since been abandoned, and will never actually be achieved.

Thankyou for that much-needed perspective. :cool:
 
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pace

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&nbsp;

&nbsp;

91Gulf-War.gif


A&nbsp;little joke ;)
 
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Freodin

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I am a pacifist, so I am naturally opposed to war. And the main reason for this is that I do not believe "war" is going to achive anything.

Sadam Hussein is not the most popular man in the world. I would rather see him gone today than tomorrow. I do not like to see a miltaristic regime as his armed with WMD.

But while I see all the problems that Iraq, Sadam and the islamic terrorists mean for us, I don´t see any solution in "war".

What are the long-term plans for Iraq?

How does the US propose to keep this region stable after Hussein?

How do they propose to keep the Iraq from keeping and obtaining WMD atfter Hussein?

How do they assume "war" will "disarm" the Iraq?


I have not seen any convincing answers to the aftermath problems.
All you ever hear is:"Iraq does not comply. We must go to war."

Does war really solve all the problems instantly?
 
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Caedmon

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Today at 10:57 AM Morat said this in Post #105 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=665091#post665091)

Just a note: Germany, that traitorous country preventing our invasion of Iraq, just conviced a 9/11 conspirator.

Goodness. It's amazing how they can both be traitors and cowards blocking our righteous war, and also be working to capture and convict terrorists.

Shocking... :eek:

And you know what? I know another group that conducts "righteous war". ;)
 
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Caedmon

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Today at 01:19 PM blindfaith said this in Post #111 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=665400#post665400)

Who would that be hj?

Al Qaeda and other militant Islamic terrorist groups

Here is my impression of the situation...

Osama Bin Laden: "We'll show 'em what Muslims can do!"

George W. Bush Jr: "We'll show 'em what Christians can do!"

My question is: who is the "'em"? I don't think either side knows exactly.

Both sides use religion as at least a partial advocate of their actions, OBL using "Jihad", and George W. Bush Jr using "American conservative Christian values."
 
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Caedmon

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Today at 03:28 PM blindfaith said this in Post #115 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=665700#post665700)

The "left", or those opposed to war, wanted respect given to their position.&nbsp; I, for one am trying.


Left??? :confused: Doesn't left mean liberal? I'm not a liberal.

I requested that equal respect be given, by not calling our President "Dubya".&nbsp; It's disrespectful and childish.

I didn't see you request it before in this thread. But if it means that much to you, I'll refer to him by his full name. Since it is quite possible to confuse the two George W. Bush-es, I need some way to differentiate. I frankly find it more convenient and definitive to use his nickname, which I do not see as derogatory in and of itself.
 
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Caedmon

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Behind the Headlines, by Justin Raimondo, February 12, 2003

One Battlefield, Two Wars
Bush and Bin Laden: Brothers in battle against Ba'athist Iraq
http://www.antiwar.com/comment/osama2.html

Colin Powell launched a preemptive strike early Tuesday morning against the latest evidence that the alleged Bin Laden-Al Qaeda link is a lot of malarkey. The first indication that anyone had of a new message from Osama bin Laden was Powell's statement to a Senate budget panel:

"Once again [Bin Laden] speaks to the people of Iraq and talks about their struggle and how he is in partnership with Iraq. This nexus between terrorists and states that are developing weapons of mass destruction can no longer be looked away from and ignored."

But it turns out that what can't be ignored is the complete agreement between Bin Laden and the Bushies on the subject of Saddam Hussein's regime. As MSNBC reported:

"At the same time, the message also called on Iraqis to rise up and oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who is a secular leader."

Saddam, OBL declares, must be overthrown, because Saddam is a "socialist" and an apostate Muslim. "The hypocrites of Iraq" are "infidels," says the Terror Master, and the same goes for the governments of Yemen, Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Nigeria, and any other regional "stooges" of the U.S. Antiwar.com posted this MSNBC story as soon as it appeared, but then something strange happened….

We received the following email from an alert reader, who noted:

"I've been keeping an eye on the bin Laden tape story on MSNBC.com via the link on Antiwar.com, and something interesting has happened. When the link was first posted, the part about overthrowing Saddam Hussein was not included in the MSNBC.com story. Later, around 3:50 PM Eastern, the site contained this paragraph: 'At the same time, the message also called on Iraqis to rise up and oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who is a secular leader.' When I checked back with the link on Antiwar.com around 4:35 PM Eastern, it said that this had not become part of the MSNBC.com story, so I clicked on the link again, and sure enough, it had been removed. I'm glad I copied the story with the 'overthrow Saddam' part onto my PC. It appears this part of the story, since it's inconvenient for the War Party, is being buried."

Who does MSNBC think they're kidding? I called those jerks (425-703-6397). Why, I asked, had all references to Bin Laden's denunciation of the Iraqi dictator been edited out? Some drone at the "News Desk" actually expected me to believe his line of bull about how they were "waiting to get that confirmed" by a translator from Associated Press – this while MSNBC's own translator was reading the part about Bin Laden's call for overthrowing Saddam over the air! When I informed him of this, he insisted that everything had to be vetted by AP, even as MSNBC's own analysts were trenchantly concurring that this was "one battlefield, two wars." Both Bush and Bin Laden had declared war on Saddam Hussein, and "the race is on" for the doomed despot's domain.

Meanwhile, MSNBC revised their story yet again:

"MSNBC.com initially cited an extemporaneous translation that mistakenly quoted the speaker as calling on Iraqis to overthrow Saddam Hussein."

The MSNBC website had no sooner revised history, than Reuters posted a more honest version:

"The statement did not express support for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein – it said Muslims should support the Iraqi people rather than the country's government."

The Reuters story went on to cite the Bin Laden message:

"'The fighting should be in the name of God only, not in the name of national ideologies, nor to seek victory for the ignorant governments that rule all Arab states, including Iraq,' the statement said."

Meanwhile, the story went out over the wire as "Osama, Iraq 'find common cause'," (the Australian version), "Bin Laden Condemns Iraq Plans" (the BBC), and "Bin Laden Tape Urges Iraqi Suicide Bombs" (ABC News). This last report, however, admitted that Bin Laden denounced Iraq's ruling Ba'ath Socialist Party as "infidels," yet only chose to briefly cite the terrorist leader's rationale objectively aligning himself with the hated Saddamite infidels:

"'It does not harm in these circumstances that the interests of Muslims and socialists crisscross in fighting against the Crusaders,' he said. He urged Iraqis to fight the Americans whether or not Saddam remains in power."

What this message fatally undermines is the administration's whole rationale for a preemptive strike against Iraq: that an alliance of convenience between Al Qaeda and Saddam will supply the former and his operatives worldwide with weapons of mass destruction. Bin Laden, the religious fanatic and sectarian, doesn't ally himself with anyone: only those who fight under the banner of militant Islam deserve support. The rulers of the Arab states, in the Ladenite view, are all apostates and puppets of the U.S. and Israel, and the terrorists' fondest wish is to see them all overthrown – a desire the Ladenites share with our neoconservatve war-birds, who call for the "liberation" and "democratization" of the region at gunpoint.

In his book, The Terror Masters, a veritable manifesto of the War Party (neocon wing), Michael Ledeen calls for "creative destruction" in the Middle East: that is precisely what Bin Laden and his fellow fanatics are joyfully awaiting. With the last remnants of Arab secularism in power – the Ba'athists and the PLO – wiped out in the center of the region, what Norman Podhoretz calls "World War IV" will commence, pitting the U.S. and Israel (with compliant Turkey reluctantly but dutifully tagging along) against the entire Muslim world, personified by Bin Laden.

The lesson of how this story unfolded and is being reported is that truth is irrelevant to our captive news media and putty in the hands of our government. The news is not reported: it is shaped, spun, and molded to fit the party line.

The problem with the effort to shape the news is that the truth eventually comes out, and this process has been greatly accelerated by the advent of the internet. CNN has "excerpts" from the Bin Laden missive, which completely undercut the administration's claim of a "link" between Al Qaeda and the Iraqi regime:

"It doesn't matter whether the socialist (Ba'ath) party or Saddam disappear…. And it doesn't harm in these conditions the interest of Muslims to agree with those of the socialists in fighting against the crusaders, even though we believe the socialists are infidels. For the socialists and the rulers have lost their legitimacy a long time ago, and the socialists are infidels regardless of where they are, whether in Baghdad or in Aden. ..."

Having succeeded in diverting Americans away from the war on Al Qaeda, and instead focusing on the alleged danger from Iraq, the War Party suddenly finds itself confronted with a rude reminder – and Americans begin to remember a name that our government would like to believe everyone has forgotten: Osama bin Laden.

The first supposedly "full text" translation of Bin Laden’s message comes from the BBC, and it seems to be at variance, in many places, with CNN's. Whole paragraphs seem to have been left out or unaccountably altered in the BBC version, which hardly seems long enough to take up its alleged length of some fifteen minutes. This story is spinning so fast it threatens to unravel before our very eyes....
 
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Rae

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Here's another liberal, bleeding heart, anti-war quote from someone who should probably have been thrown out of our country. ;)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." -Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)
 
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TheBear

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Today at 04:45 PM Morat said this in Post #116 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=665739#post665739)

Blindfaith: Dubya is the name he is called by some of his closest friends and collegues. It's a nickname he's had for a long time, as a way to differentiate between him and his father.

I fail to see how it is "childish" or disrespectful in any way.

Nice try. But, how coincidental it is, that in this forum, the only people refering to George Bush as "Dubya", are the same ones opposed to his policies.

I have made this announcement in another thread, and I will make it here.

From here forth, anyone who refers to George Bush as "Dubya", or refers to Bill Clinton as "Waldo Billy Bob", or any disrepectful references to any president, will recieve an official warning.

These cheap shot remarks have no place here, and will no longer be tolerated.
 
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