Anti-War voice being heard?

Gunny

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War issue presents challenge for Dem candidates
By Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY



Most Americans support invading Iraq, but 45% of the Democratic Party does not. That presents the six Democratic presidential hopefuls with a complex political challenge: reconciling their views with the will of a popular president and figuring out how to win the nomination in a process dominated by liberals and then appeal to enough moderates to win the election.

Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., meets reporters on Capitol Hill Tuesday, offering a resolution and thanking America's supporters in Europe.
By Terry Ashe, AP

The candidate spectrum ranges from the hawkish Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., to anti-war civil rights activist Al Sharpton. "Everybody else is in the mushy middle," says Dick Harpootlian, chairman of the South Carolina Democratic Party. "Mush may be a very valid position right now." (Related item: Where the presidential hopefuls stand)

That's because it's the position many Americans hold. Nearly two-thirds in a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll this month say they favor invading Iraq with ground troops. But only 36% say they consider Iraq an immediate threat, and only 39% say they favor invading without U.N. approval.

Soundings in key primary-season states suggest anti-war sentiment will be more of a factor in Iowa and New Hampshire, the first two contests, than in states that follow. Iowa Democrats kick off the nominating season at caucuses Jan. 19. "Those who want to be the presidential nominee need to know that a substantial majority of caucus attenders are opposed to the war," says Dave Nagle of Cedar Rapids, a former congressman and former chairman of the state Democratic Party.

Nagle says Democrats are waiting for a strong anti-war candidate to enter the race, someone like Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut, Sen. Bob Graham of Florida or former senator Gary Hart of Colorado. If the field stays the same, Nagle says, "it would be hard" to support anyone.

The New Hampshire primary is Jan. 27. A Concord Monitor Poll in December found that 77% of state Republicans and 43% of Democrats support the use of military force in Iraq. Colin Van Ostern, spokesman for the state Democratic Party, says the anti-war feeling is seen in what people talk about at house parties for candidates and what they nod at listening to speeches. "It's one of the things that's invigorating activists right now," he says.

South Carolina follows New Hampshire with a primary Feb. 3. Democrats there are concerned about "the validity of going alone" and what they see as lack of evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction or links to terrorists, Harpootlian says. The state's many military installations contribute to concern: "When you mobilize for war, it's our brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers heading off." But Harpootlian says South Carolina has a well-earned hawkish profile. "There's no such thing as a liberal in South Carolina," he says. "You don't hear significant anti-war rhetoric from anyone."

There was plenty of it last week at an "anti-war room" in Washington set up by Win Without War, a coalition of 25 religious, environmental and other groups. About 20 people huddled at laptops, tapping intently as Secretary of State Colin Powell made the case against Iraq at the United Nations.

In the late 1990s, with centrist Democrats pushing for tough defense and foreign policies, the Democratic Party tempered its anti-war image and neutralized the advantage voters gave Republicans on national security. But recent polls show Democrats behind Republicans in handling terrorism, foreign affairs and Iraq.

Former Maine congressman Tom Andrews of Win Without War says Democrats running for president should stick to principle. "If you're willing to speak clearly and directly about what you believe is in the best interests of the United States, and if you speak to the highest and best of our values, you will win elections," he says.

But it's not that simple. Lieberman has probably the clearest position on Iraq, and it's anathema to anti-war Democrats. Entertainment-industry liberals say his war views disturb them even more than his crusade against media sex and violence. On the East Coast, Gadiel Smith, 90, of West Caldwell, N.J., says if Lieberman is the 2004 nominee, "I'm going to stay home and sulk" on Election Day.

Candidates with layered views risk alienating hawks and doves alike. In a Georgetown University speech, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry said Democrats must convince Americans that "we will keep them safe," and must not let the party's national security agenda "be defined by those who reflexively oppose any U.S. military intervention anywhere."

Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, helped found Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He said he respects war protesters: "I've been there. I know how tough it is." He also defended voting last year for a resolution authorizing the president to use force against Iraq. "If you don't believe ... Saddam Hussein is a threat with nuclear weapons, then you shouldn't vote for me," he said.

Al From of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council says that kind of talk is what the party needs to earn credibility with wary voters. When people choose a president, he says, "the highest value they have is toughness. They want strength."

From, whose group has worked with Bill Clinton, Al Gore and other prominent Democrats, says presidential hopefuls should not worry about skeptical primary voters. If a war starts, he says, most Democrats will support it — and candidates who backed it will be able to neutralize doubts about Democrats and defense just as Clinton and Gore did in 1992 after the last Persian Gulf War. "We did not run anti-war candidates in 1992," From says. "Had we done that, we would have lost."
 
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Today at 12:26 PM Morat said this in Post #75

*shrug*. The war effort is looking bad. Turkey is now stating that they will not allow troops until they're paid a bigger bribe...I mean, given more "aid". 26 billion isn't enough, apparantly.

Look who supports us in Europe. Ignoring Australia and Britain, virtually every country who supports us is doing so in an attempt to get a fat handout. Like Turkey's 26 billion in "military upgrades" and their hope to snap up a chunk of Kurdish-controlled Iraq.

Now, why do I oppose this war? First off, I'm against "starting wars". I prefer finishing them. If I thought, for a second, that Saddam Hussein had any real intent to attack America or her troops, I'd support a military strike. How big a one depends on his intentions. I do believe in proprotional responses.

However, I can honestly say that at no point has anyone made the case that Saddam is any particular danger to America or American troops.

What little chemical and bio weapons he has (and so well hidden no one seems to be able to find them). he's shown no signs of sharing. Indeed, the CIA assesment is that he will not share them, unless he's convinced he's going down anyways.

This contrasts nicely to North Korea, which is both very desperate for cash, and has a long history of selling weapons to anyone with the money for it.

We shouldn't go to war because there has been no coherent reason to go to war. There have been plenty of incoherent reasons.

1) Saddam has WMD or is trying to build them. Well, so does Iran, North Korea and half a dozen other nations that don't like us. So does Pakistan and India, for that matter, and Pakistan is on the verge of being taken over by fundamentalist Islamics of the Taliban type.

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, as opposed to other countries that pose a real threat to America or world stability.

2) Saddam is linked to terrorists. Well, yes, in a sense. He does help fund Palestinian terrorists. So does the rest of the Middle East. However, the White House is trying to imply he's linked to Al Qaeda. That's patently untrue. However, Al Qaeda does get a lot of money and support from Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan.....

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, as opposed to other countries that have large and active roles in funding global terrorism.

3) Saddam isn't complying with inspections and violates UN resolutions, and never has. Let me draw your attention to North Korea which, unlike Saddam, has a very public uranium-enrichment program, and has just recently kicked out the last of the UN inspectors.

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, which is crawling with inspectors and is (more or less) cooperationg, as opposed to North Korea which has no inspectors and a nice nuclear program ticking along.

4) He's an evil, murderous man who tortures and kills his own people. This one I'd actually buy, since it's far more true and relevant than anything else. Sadly, he's not the only evil, murderous man who tortures and kills his own people in the world. And we support many of them.

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, when we cheerfuly prop up and offer aid to people just as evil, if not more so.

I guess I'm in a minority. I don't want to see lives lost, especially those of our military, fighting a war we have no real need to fight. I'd prefer to keep our soldiers alive. I'm not sure why, but some people consider that "un American". When it became "America" to waste lives in pointless combat is unclear.

I'd happily and fully support war, once I was given a coherent rationale. But lies about aluminum tubes, presentations that are contradicted by the weapons inspectors, claims about Osama Bin Laden and Iraq that are so transparently false as to verge on the ridiculous...don't cut it.

If, to make your case for war, you have to lie, twist, and distort the truth, you don't have one. Come up with something honest, and I'm all ears.

But if the best you can do is claim Iraq and Osama are in bed together, and offer as proof a tape where Osama calls Saddam an "infidel", and says that only an actual military invasion by the West would be sufficient to overcome his distate of Saddam enough to allow them to be on the same side, and only because Iraq's people are Muslims, even if led by an infidel and socialist.....

Why bother?

Morat... my sentiments exactly (or nearly enough). I noticed one of the cut and pasted op-ed pieces gunny posted complained that the war critics based their position on "feelings" rather than "facts"... The discussion in this thread proves that opinion dead wrong. The pro-war crowd, with a few notable exceptions, are very stingy with the facts & generous with the rhetoric and op-ed.

Really, I think it is the ones who are selling the war that owe us facts the most. War requires justification. Bush, inc. have been very stingy with that justification and seem to want our support on the basis of faith and feelings only.
 
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Gunny

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Today at 01:23 PM Jerry Smith said this in Post #82 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660737#post660737)

I noticed one of the cut and pasted op-ed pieces gunny posted complained that the war critics based their position on "feelings" rather than "facts"...


Mr. Smith, as a CF Moderator I am in a position where I am bound to not engage in full debate one on one. Due to this I utilize scripture and articles that I am in agreement with as my primary way of voicing my opinion on various topics.

I as a CF staff Member attempt to best as I can abide by the conditions set forth by the website's founder. I do this out of respect for someone that has gone above and beyond the call of Christian duty and purpose by creating and maintaing Christian Forum and its mission: Christian Forums was established as a free, non-profit and non-denominational online
Christian community to unite Christians of every denomination together as one body.
 
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Caedmon

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In my opinion, the pro-war advocates are the most emotionally involved. We could start by taking a look at the posts made in this very thread. The main argument that is used is one of vengeance, imo. Ok, the enemy kills fellow soldiers in combat. One of the main emotions here is rage, revenge. And to act, using those feelings, could be sinful. Surely, I would feel the same emotions if I were in a similar situation. But to take past combat experiences and project past rage into justificaton for a future military action is a bit too Batman-esque for me.

If you want me to listen to a plan for war, then you had better have some definitive facts and justification. The burden of proof is on the pro-war advocates.
 
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Today at 02:11 PM gunnysgt said this in Post #83

Mr. Smith, as a CF Moderator I am in a position where I am bound to not engage in full debate one on one. Due to this I utilize scripture and articles that I am in agreement with as my primary way of voicing my opinion on various topics.

I as a CF staff Member attempt to best as I can abide by the conditions set forth by the website's founder. I do this out of respect for someone that has gone above and beyond the call of Christian duty and purpose by creating and maintaing Christian Forum and its mission: Christian Forums was established as a free, non-profit and non-denominational online
Christian community to unite Christians of every denomination together as one body.

gunny, I fully respect the rules and the mission here. I respect the administrators for having a forum like this. Christian Forums is one of the best run boards I have ever seen and the only one I participate on regularly. I make it a point to abide by the rules to the best of my ability 100% of the time.

I was unaware that mods could not debate with others here. That seems a shame, but I guess there is a good reason for it. In any case, I apologize if I seemed irritated by the cutting and pasting above. I was not aware of your reasoning for this when I made my last post.
 
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ocean

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There is no justification for a war on Iraq. Iraq is not a threat to the United States or its allies, and Saddam Hussein does not have weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is complying with most of the UN resolutions and the inspections are working.

A war on Iraq would be about two things, oil and money. Bush wants to get control of Iraq so he can get to the oil, regardless of how many innocent Iraqi civilians and American soldiers perish.

This murderous campaign in Iraq can only lead to more terror attacks against the US by Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, who would be motivated by the slaughter of innocent people by the US.
 
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ocean, I agree with you that the war is without justification, but I think this:

Saddam Hussein does not have weapons of mass destruction.

may be somewhat naive, and this:

A war on Iraq would be about two things, oil and money. Bush wants to get control of Iraq so he can get to the oil, regardless of how many innocent Iraqi civilians and American soldiers perish.
seems to be an oversimplification without enough factual basis to be completely plausible. There is evidence that oil is a consideration, but I think Bush's motives are not as simple as that. I wish I knew what his real motives were. I suspect that carving out a new U.S. sphere of influence may be a part of the agenda. It's usually not good to charicaturize your opposition.
 
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Gunny

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Today at 02:42 PM Jerry Smith said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660943#post660943)

gunny, I fully respect the rules and the mission here. I respect the administrators for having a forum like this. Christian Forums is one of the best run boards I have ever seen and the only one I participate on regularly. I make it a point to abide by the rules to the best of my ability 100% of the time.

I was unaware that mods could not debate with others here. That seems a shame, but I guess there is a good reason for it. In any case, I apologize if I seemed irritated by the cutting and pasting above. I was not aware of your reasoning for this when I made my last post.

Jerry, it's not a hinderance it's a matter of attempting to stay clear of heated debates while at the same time performing the duties of a CF moderator.

I consider it a honor and privilege as a Christian to serve in the moderator capacity at CF.

Once again, I abide by the opinions and thoughts of the website's founder and my fellow Christian brothers and sisters who also serve on the staff at CF.

I'm an ole' gung ho Marine who has to work at keeping his tiger in his cage, lol.
 
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Evangelion

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Hey Jerry...

I was unaware that mods could not debate with others here.

That's not actually true. I think you've misunderstood what gunny was saying.

The rule is that members are not allowed to have public disputes with moderators on the subject of moderator decisions. In other words, if a moderator edits and/or deletes one of your posts (for example) you're not allowed to argue about it in public. You have to use the Private Message system.

Even a cursory glance at the other forums (not to mention this one) will show that the moderators do indeed take a very active part in debates, whether theological, political, sociological, or any other context. I myself have had a number of intense theological debates with various moderators.

Yes, they are perfectly at liberty to debate - and there is absolutely nothing in the rules which restricts them from doing so. :cool:
 
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Evangelion

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Jerry -

There is evidence that oil is a consideration, but I think Bush's motives are not as simple as that.

I don't reduce the issue to oil qua oil. I agree that it's more complex than that.

I wish I knew what his real motives were. I suspect that carving out a new U.S. sphere of influence may be a part of the agenda.

I believe that this is very plausible. Israel represents America's toehold in the ME, but a greater influence than this is needed if the US wishes to participate in ME politics on a regular basis.

How this might be achieved by fighting Hussein, remains to be seen. It certainly didn't contribute very much to America's political needs the first time around. :cool:
 
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Gunny

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Today at 03:05 PM Evangelion said this in Post #89 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660999#post660999)


Yes, they are perfectly at liberty to debate - and there is absolutely nothing in the rules which restricts them from doing so. :cool:

Evangelion, each CF Moderator chooses to convey their opinion which hopefully is done in a manner that isn't completely argumentative.

My learning curve possibly has been longer then some in attempting to due this effectively, lol.

Once again, it suits my personality to attempt to get my point across with the use of scripture, quotes and/or articles. It is the manner in which I regulate the emotionality of some of the topics discussed at CF.
 
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TheBear

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Just a reminder......

Tower10.jpg
 
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Blackhawk

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Yesterday at 05:26 PM Morat said this in Post #75

*shrug*. The war effort is looking bad. Turkey is now stating that they will not allow troops until they're paid a bigger bribe...I mean, given more "aid". 26 billion isn't enough, apparantly.

Look who supports us in Europe. Ignoring Australia and Britain, virtually every country who supports us is doing so in an attempt to get a fat handout. Like Turkey's 26 billion in "military upgrades" and their hope to snap up a chunk of Kurdish-controlled Iraq.


I agree with it so far.&nbsp; The european nations are looking after their own interests.&nbsp; this includes France and Germany though.&nbsp;

Now, why do I oppose this war? First off, I'm against "starting wars". I prefer finishing them. If I thought, for a second, that Saddam Hussein had any real intent to attack America or her troops, I'd support a military strike. How big a one depends on his intentions. I do believe in proprotional responses.

However, I can honestly say that at no point has anyone made the case that Saddam is any particular danger to America or American troops.


I think it has been shown that he funds terrorism which I believe you do state later.&nbsp; Also I think his biggest threat is through terrorism.&nbsp; I am not saying that other nations do not support it also but they clearly do.&nbsp;

What little chemical and bio weapons he has (and so well hidden no one seems to be able to find them). he's shown no signs of sharing. Indeed, the CIA assesment is that he will not share them, unless he's convinced he's going down anyways.
&nbsp;


Well it is not that&nbsp;hard to hide them from the inspectors.&nbsp; that has definitely been shown by Bush.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

This contrasts nicely to North Korea, which is both very desperate for cash, and has a long history of selling weapons to anyone with the money for it.&nbsp;
&nbsp;


I agree that N. Korea is a larger threat and should be dealt with also.&nbsp; But to say one is a threat so we should not fight a war with anoter country makes no sense to me.&nbsp;

We shouldn't go to war because there has been no coherent reason to go to war. There have been plenty of incoherent reasons
&nbsp;


Hmm I guess that is your opinion.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

1) Saddam has WMD or is trying to build them. Well, so does Iran, North Korea and half a dozen other nations that don't like us. So does Pakistan and India, for that matter, and Pakistan is on the verge of being taken over by fundamentalist Islamics of the Taliban type.
&nbsp;


WMD?

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, as opposed to other countries that pose a real threat to America or world stability.
&nbsp;


I do not think it is the only&nbsp;country that does but I think Sadaam clearly poses a threat to world peace and stability.&nbsp; We are&nbsp;really the only ones&nbsp;keeping him somewhat in check.&nbsp;Too bad we&nbsp;are not preventing him from harming his&nbsp;own people.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

2) Saddam is linked to terrorists. Well, yes, in a sense. He does help fund Palestinian terrorists. So does the rest of the Middle East. However, the White House is trying to imply he's linked to Al Qaeda. That's patently untrue. However, Al Qaeda does get a lot of money and support from Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan.....
&nbsp;


And you know this how?&nbsp; Just curious.&nbsp;&nbsp;


3) Saddam isn't complying with inspections and violates UN resolutions, and never has. Let me draw your attention to North Korea which, unlike Saddam, has a very public uranium-enrichment program, and has just recently kicked out the last of the UN inspectors.
&nbsp;


Again I do not see how saying another country is breaking the rules so we should not go to war with Iraq really is a good argument.&nbsp; I think N Korea should be dealt with although it is obviously a more sticky situation than Iraq.&nbsp;

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, which is crawling with inspectors and is (more or less) cooperationg, as opposed to North Korea which has no inspectors and a nice nuclear program ticking along.
&nbsp;


When did Iraq becoming crawling with inspectors?&nbsp; Also again how is howing that N Korea is a threat really making a case that we should not go to war against Iraq?&nbsp;


4) He's an evil, murderous man who tortures and kills his own people. This one I'd actually buy, since it's far more true and relevant than anything else. Sadly, he's not the only evil, murderous man who tortures and kills his own people in the world. And we support many of them.

No one has been able to explain to me why Iraq, when we cheerfuly prop up and offer aid to people just as evil, if not more so.
&nbsp;


Goo point here but again I do not see how just because other nations and other dictators are evil is a really good argument against not going ot war against Iraq. It would be like not prosecuting a thief because another one got off free.&nbsp; I would try to stop the practice of letting anyone off instead of not prosecuting any.&nbsp;


I guess I'm in a minority. I don't want to see lives lost, especially those of our military, fighting a war we have no real need to fight. I'd prefer to keep our soldiers alive. I'm not sure why, but some people consider that "un American". When it became "America" to waste lives in pointless combat is unclear.
&nbsp;


You are in the minority because you "don't want to see lives lost?"&nbsp; Who does?&nbsp; And who does not want to "keep our soldiers alive?" I think the real difference is just that some believe that the war is justified while you do not.&nbsp;

I'd happily and fully support war, once I was given a coherent rationale. But lies about aluminum tubes, presentations that are contradicted by the weapons inspectors, claims about Osama Bin Laden and Iraq that are so transparently false as to verge on the ridiculous...don't cut it.
&nbsp;


When did Iraq gain enough weapons inspectors to do the job correctly?&nbsp; The weapons inspectors have been a joke from day 1.

If, to make your case for war, you have to lie, twist, and distort the truth, you don't have one. Come up with something honest, and I'm all ears.
 
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Blackhawk

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Thanks Evangelion.&nbsp; I guess I am not up on my acronyms.

Today at 06:12 PM GREG said this in Post #97

BLACKHAWK? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?


Huh? What do you mean by this?&nbsp; Sorry I did not know what WMD was.&nbsp; And I have just recently started to become involved in this forum.&nbsp; But I really do not know what you meanby your post. :scratch:
 
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Nice picture. I think people should be reminded that Al Qaeda is still out there, despite the frantic attempts to change the subject to Iraq.

Of course, to put a fine point on it, we can find Iraq on a map. Al Qaeda won't give us their address.
I think it has been shown that he funds terrorism which I believe you do state later. Also I think his biggest threat is through terrorism. I am not saying that other nations do not support it also but they clearly do.
He funds Palestinian terrorists to the extent of paying a death benefit to suicide bombers against Isreal. I'm sure he funnels money around in other ways, but he really only funds two groups: Anti-isreali groups, and anti-Kurdish groups.

To date, no information has been given that indicates he in any way funds groups that attack America or American targets. According to George Tenet, in testimony before Congress, he has specifically not funded such groups and is highly unlikely to. Unless, of course, he's about to go down.
Well it is not that hard to hide them from the inspectors. that has definitely been shown by Bush.
Really? You're not referring to Powell's report which Blix more or less claimed was laughable, are you?

The "mobile biolabs" Blix had already checked out, the movement at sites that were frequently crawling with inspectors, and the like?

Nothing from Powell's report has stood up. Nothing. Pretty sad.
I agree that N. Korea is a larger threat and should be dealt with also. But to say one is a threat so we should not fight a war with anoter country makes no sense to me.
It's called "Prioritizing". If, for instance, you claim you are going to beat up Person A because A might attack you someday, while ignoring Person B who is currently loading his gun while calling you names and telling you how much he hates you, people might think you're a little crazy.

Iraq is toothless and helpless. North Korean is not.
I do not think it is the only country that does but I think Sadaam clearly poses a threat to world peace and stability. We are really the only ones keeping him somewhat in check. Too bad we are not preventing him from harming his own people
Really? How? Be specific: What threat are we preventing? Who would he invade? Why? What would he do? How do you know?
And you know this how? Just curious.
Publically released statements by the CIA, the FBI, by British intelligence, by virtually any news source.

How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi? How many were Saudi?
Again I do not see how saying another country is breaking the rules so we should not go to war with Iraq really is a good argument. I think N Korea should be dealt with although it is obviously a more sticky situation than Iraq.
There are two criminals in front of you. One is a mass murderer in chains, surrounded by cops, and under heavy survellience at all times. The other is a mass murderer currently loading a gun, sitting a few feet away from your children, with no security anywhere.

Which deserves your attention?
When did Iraq becoming crawling with inspectors? Also again how is howing that N Korea is a threat really making a case that we should not go to war against Iraq?
Since the UN sent them back in. See above.
Goo point here but again I do not see how just because other nations and other dictators are evil is a really good argument against not going ot war against Iraq. It would be like not prosecuting a thief because another one got off free. I would try to stop the practice of letting anyone off instead of not prosecuting any.
Actually, it would be like prosecuting a thief to the fullest extent of the law, possibly even doing a little creative things with the truth to ensure he got the harshest penalty possible, while actively ignoring someone blatantly stealing and murdering right next to you.

Priorities, Blackhawk. I find it amusing that you consistantly misrepresent my statements. Do you prefer to argue with a strawman?

You've done the exact same thing that I was griping about. You gave no rationale for why would should attack Iraq as opposed to North Korea, Syria, or even Saudi Arabia.

You've, instead, preffered to address the strawman that I don't think we should attack any, since we don't attack all.

I'd prefer you to address my real statement: Why Iraq, now, as opposed to those countries that pose a much bigger and more immediate threat?

When did Iraq gain enough weapons inspectors to do the job correctly? The weapons inspectors have been a joke from day 1.
Blix and the UN seem to disagree. Of course, it's pretty easy to pretend any results aren't worthwhile. Spares you the effort of addressing them, eh?
If, to make your case for war, you have to lie, twist, and distort the truth, you don't have one. Come up with something honest, and I'm all ears.
Interesting. Most people would assume that the burden of proof would lie on those proposing to start a war, not those against it.

Very interesting.
 
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