Anti-War voice being heard?

Smilin

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Psalm 13
1 How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?
2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
 
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Smilin

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Today at 10:37 PM Jerry Smith said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657542#post657542)

I believe our military defense is an effective deterrent against any wish on their part to harm us. They are, after all, a weak and helpless nation, no matter how potent their hatred for us.

a 'week, helpless, rogue group' of Islamic fundamentalists..

blew up the Marine Barracks in Lebanon
blew up our miliatary barracks in Saudi Arabia
attacked the USS Cole,
destroyed the World Trade Center
bombed two of our embassies in Africa
attacked us in Somalia while we were on a humanitarian mission


Never underestimate the resolve of those who hate us enough to terrorize us....
 
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Yesterday at 11:06 PM gunnysgt said this in Post #17

I have seen the blood of Fellow Brother Marines and the enemy spilled in battle. Your statement brings our discussion to an end.

Have a good day, sir.


Hard to tell whether or not this means you agree that we should not send our troops to war without justification or not, but I'm assuming that this represents agreement. If you have seen blood flow then surely you understand better than anyone why it is such an unspeakable thought to make that happen without real justification.

Good day to you too, sir.
 
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Yesterday at 11:08 PM Smilin said this in Post #18

We've declared war on terrorism. Would casualties of a war with rogue Islamic militant groups in Afghanistan that could have prevented 9-11 be needless? I think not.

We were quite justified in going to war in Afghanistan, but if you remember, we did not go in on 9/12. First, we presented the evidence to the world that the Al Qaeda were our enemies. Then, we issued an ultimatum that the Taliban cease their support for our known enemies and turn them over. Only after they failed to do so did we strike.  

Iraq's history on chemical/biological weapons speeks for itself. A war to prevent such weapons falling into the hands of those who would detonate such a device in one of our cities would not be needless.

Do you have a good reason to believe that Iraq is planning on giving chemical or biological agents to terrorists? Planning to launch them against us? If they are planning to use them or turn them over to our enemies, then I am absolutely in support of taking them out before it happens.  

Are we to sit and wait to be attacked again? Or should we be proactive and take the offense.

I say we should take the offense against our known enemies - people we know are planning to bring harm to us. I say we should be proactive in discovering who these people are and bringing our case against them to the world. 

History has taught us you CAN'T win a defensive war...i.e. Vietnam, the Civil War...

I don't know what you mean by "defensive war". We were attacked first by the south in the Civil War, yet we won that war. We were attacked first in WWII, and we won that war. We were attacked first by the Al Qaeda, but we won in Afghanistan. Yes, if you know who is planning to strike you, a pre-emptive strike saves civilians and soldiers, and is justified. But you cannot attack every one who doesn't like you just in case they might be planning to strike you. If you do that, you eventually have to strike everyone, because the more you strike without provocation, the more people are not going to like you.

We have declared war on terrorism. The Iraqi government is a terrorist regime that seeks to do us harm.

Do you have evidence that Iraq is planning to strike us? Or do you just think that because they do not like us then they must be planning a strike? If Bush has such evidence, I certainly hope he will reveal it, and the sooner the better. If it is too sensitive to reveal now, then it's very important that he reveal it after the war.

They have the power to prevent war. The ball is in their court.

Without the anti-war protesters here and around the world, and without France and Germany dragging their feet, we most likely would have already been to Iraq. I don't think Bush will willingly allow anyone to prevent war in this case. Now if the world has tied Bush's hands to the extent that Saddam does have the power to prevent war, then I hope that he will have the intelligence to do so.

North Korea... you're next.

Why next, and not first? When Iran? When Pakistan? When Saudi Arabia?
 
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Yesterday at 11:25 PM Smilin said this in Post #22

a 'week, helpless, rogue group' of Islamic fundamentalists..

blew up the Marine Barracks in Lebanon
blew up our miliatary barracks in Saudi Arabia
attacked the USS Cole,
destroyed the World Trade Center
bombed two of our embassies in Africa
attacked us in Somalia while we were on a humanitarian mission


Never underestimate the resolve of those who hate us enough to terrorize us....

Touche'. Iraq does not have a shield of anonymity to work from behind. I do believe our military is an effective detterent against them, and would even if they were at their strongest (i.e. with their pre-Kuwait military capabilities).
 
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Iraq supports terrorism. Palestinian suicide bombers are monetarily (their families) rewarded by Saddam. It's time to end his reign, and we shouldn't stop their. We need to send a strong, undeniable message, that those who sponsor terrorism, we are officially at war with.

That's a fair comment. But it leaves me asking all kinds of questions. Are we at war with terrorism, regardless of where it is perpetrated, who it is perpetrated against, or in what form? Why have we issued no ultimatum that Saddam cease his support for Palestinian terrorists, the way we did in Afghanistan? Why are we focused on the red herring of chemical/biological weapons, if this is a strike against Iraq for their funding of Palestinian terrorists? Are we being consistent, or do we have business with more than just Iraq and North Korea on this same basis? Do we not have business with Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Saudi Arabia? Where does it end, or does it?
 
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PS smilin --- thanks for making an argument of substance. What irks me most is seeing people who ask us to go to war and then refuse to justify that war, as though it matters none at all whether a particular action is right or wrong when so many lives are at stake. If we go to war, or if we stay home, at least it is good to know why we did what we did.
 
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Gunny

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Today at 07:09 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658203#post658203)

PS smilin --- thanks for making an argument of substance. What irks me most is seeing people who ask us to go to war and then refuse to justify that war, as though it matters none at all whether a particular action is right or wrong when so many lives are at stake. If we go to war, or if we stay home, at least it is good to know why we did what we did.




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Gunny

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10th February 2003 at 10:28 AM gunnysgt said this in Post #25 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644222#post644222)

What does the catch-phrase, "The inspections are working.", mean?

It means absoultey nothing just as it did twelve years ago. Any military analyst/intel (Active or retired) knows without a shadow of a doubt that S.H. is playing the shell game with the inspectors now as in the past.

United States is not dealing with a leader that is willingly going to disarm any WMD for this same ruthless and tenacious leader is the very same that utilized these same weapons on his own people which has already been documented.

S.H. and his henchmen state they have none, no not one WMD. So what happened to the thousands of various items in his military arsenal and the means to produce these various weapons?

His documentation to the UN stated no possession of WMD nor any destruction of said weapons, nor any present capabilties to produce these weapons.

France, Germany and the people inhabiting the U.S. that want to believe S.H. regarding his declaration of none, no not one WMD nor the means to produce such weapons, by all means take his word. He might sell you some swamp land in Florida, too.


It is my contention that Saddam is and has been in full and flagrant violation regarding his non-disarming of WMD.

I believe the Commander-In-Chief has complete and total justification to utilize United States of America Armed Forces to disarm Saddam of WMD who has placed himself and his people in this postion by refusing to disarm.
 
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Rae

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Sorry, Smilin. You think the case for war has been made. I do not. I do not think anything has happened to justify the murders of huge numbers of Iraqi civilians (of course we will...do you think Saddam is going to keep them away from "tactical" sites? Really?) or the deaths of American troops. So what if he hasn't disarmed according to UN mandates? Nothing I have heard indicates that he's suicidal; in fact, most reports indicate he's far more likely to use any weapons he has against Iraqis, not the US or our allies. Using any such weapons would just mean he'd bring down destruction on his own head, and he's not so stupid as not to know it.

I'm sorry you think caring about needless deaths of innocent people is "having sympathy for our enemies." I don't think the Iraqi civilians are our enemies. I had thought you'd see that, at least. :sigh:
 
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I am not sure i am in favor of the war. I have to admit that i have my doubts about this one.

The certainty is, that everything is for God's glory at the end. Even the 9/11 is a blessing is some respects. We would have never been able to witness like we can now in that country.
 
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Smilin

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Today at 06:53 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #25 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658189#post658189)

Do you have a good reason to believe that Iraq is planning on giving chemical or biological agents to terrorists? Planning to launch them against us? If they are planning to use them or turn them over to our enemies, then I am absolutely in support of taking them out before it happens.  


Did you know the ONLY thing preventing the Iraqi's from possessing a nuclear weapon has been their inability to generate bomb grade Uranium or Plutonium? Were you aware that Saddam accelerated his Nuclear Weapons program after the invasion of Kuwait? Were you aware that Saddam mandated a working nuclear weapon within 6 months after he invaded Kuwait? Were you aware that he HAS developed nuclear devices but only lacks the fissile material for them?

Were you aware we had NO IDEA of how close Saddam was to nuclear weapons until the first NATO inspections uncovered his operations.

Are you aware of how much chemical/biological agents remain unaccounted for in Iraq?

Are you aware that Iraq currently is giving safe haven to known terrorists?


Today at 06:53 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #25 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658189#post658189)

I don't know what you mean by "defensive war". We were attacked first by the south in the Civil War, yet we won that war.

The South did strike first, but resorted to 'defensive tactics' after that. As a result, the South lost. Vietnam was 'defensive tactics' only. History teaches us defensive wars can't be won. Only those who take the offensive win.


Today at 06:53 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #25 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658189#post658189)

Without the anti-war protesters here and around the world, and without France and Germany dragging their feet, we most likely would have already been to Iraq. I don't think Bush will willingly allow anyone to prevent war in this case. Now if the world has tied Bush's hands to the extent that Saddam does have the power to prevent war, then I hope that he will have the intelligence to do so.


Are you aware France sold Iraq it's original nuclear reactor? Are you aware of the buisness ventures by France in Baghdad. Are you aware France couldn't fight it's way out of a wet paper sack and has no intentions of ever entering any military engagement? The French military has a reputation of surrender rather than engaging the enemy. They also seem to forget the amount of American blood shed to free them from the Nazi regime... WAIT... they EMBRACED Nazism and surrendered.
 
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Smilin

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Today at 08:02 AM Rae said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658240#post658240)

I'm sorry you think caring about needless deaths of innocent people is "having sympathy for our enemies." I don't think the Iraqi civilians are our enemies. I had thought you'd see that, at least. :sigh:

Agreed,
The Iraqi citizens aren't our enemy... Hussein and his government are. You misunderstood my case.

And how many innocent Iraqi civilians has Saddam gassed, executed, tortured.

Did you know he had his own Olympians tortured for losing in the Olympics?

We are still criticized today for not doing enough to stop the genocide of the Jews by Hitler. Shouldn't we stop the genocide of the Iraqi people by their own government?
 
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Smilin

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Today at 06:57 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658191#post658191)

Touche'. Iraq does not have a shield of anonymity to work from behind. I do believe our military is an effective detterent against them, and would even if they were at their strongest (i.e. with their pre-Kuwait military capabilities).


You really believe our military is an effective detterent against them? Why do they fire on our aircraft almost daily then? Why were they moving missile launchers toward the borders of Kuwait?
 
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Yesterday at 10:08 PM Smilin said this in Post #18

We've declared war on terrorism. Would casualties of a war with rogue Islamic militant groups in Afghanistan that could have prevented 9-11 be needless? I think not.

Iraq's history on chemical/biological weapons speeks for itself. A war to prevent such weapons falling into the hands of those who would detonate such a device in one of our cities would not be needless.

Are we to sit and wait to be attacked again? Or should we be proactive and take the offense.

History has taught us you CAN'T win a defensive war...i.e. Vietnam, the Civil War...

We have declared war on terrorism. The Iraqi government is a terrorist regime that seeks to do us harm. They have the power to prevent war. The ball is in their court.

North Korea... you're next.

     How can you even declare a war of terrorism when terrorism is a crime and terrorists are criminals?  We declared a "War" on drug but what has that gotten us?  Let's call a duck a duck and stop calling police actions wars.  Our "wars" are just an excuse for us to selectively police the world, picked and choosing those people who we percieve as a threat (threats who do not yet have nuclear weapons) and then acting against them. Selective Policing may not even be a bad idea, however we should acklowledge it for what it is.




 
 
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Today at 10:56 AM Smilin said this in Post #35

Did you know the ONLY thing preventing the Iraqi's from possessing a nuclear weapon has been their inability to generate bomb grade Uranium or Plutonium? Were you aware that Saddam accelerated his Nuclear Weapons program after the invasion of Kuwait? Were you aware that Saddam mandated a working nuclear weapon within 6 months after he invaded Kuwait? Were you aware that he HAS developed nuclear devices but only lacks the fissile material for them? 

Were you aware we had NO IDEA of how close Saddam was to nuclear weapons until the first NATO inspections uncovered his operations.

Are you aware of how much chemical/biological agents remain unaccounted for in Iraq?


I was aware of most of that, but that's a separate question from whether they are planning to strike us. 

Are you aware that Iraq currently is giving safe haven to known terrorists?

I'm aware that this has been alleged. If it is indeed the case, why aren't we giving them an ultimatum like we gave the Taliban instead of all of this misdirection about WMD's? 


The South did strike first, but resorted to 'defensive tactics' after that. As a result, the South lost. Vietnam was 'defensive tactics' only. History teaches us defensive wars can't be won. Only those who take the offensive win.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge of tactics, but I'm not really talking about tactics. I'm not talking about how we execute a war, I'm talking about whether we should start a war.
 
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Today at 11:02 AM Smilin said this in Post #37

You really believe our military is an effective detterent against them? Why do they fire on our aircraft almost daily then? Why were they moving missile launchers toward the borders of Kuwait?

Any nation that has an unfriendly aircraft routinely violating their airspace will fire upon them. That's no justification for war. They are moving missil launchers toward the borders in preparation to fight a war that the U.S. has made clear it is going to start.


Now that I've answered  your questions, straight up: is there good reason to believe they are planning to strike? If not, is there any other provocation that would justify us striking them? I'm asking for your opinion. Is it your opinion that possession of WMD's is provocation enough for war? Do you think that the U.S. will allow Iraq to be democratic post-war? Have they done so in Afghanistan? Will the U.S. replace Saddam with another secular dictator who is more friendly to the U.S., or will we allow them to elect themselves an Ayatollah?
 
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