Anti-Christ update

[TribulationSigns]

So the servants of God are not literal people? I disagree, I am a literal person.

Where did I said that the servants of God are not literal people? We are all God's servants on Earth. Selah. Please read whole post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

144000 redeemed. Sounds about right.
12000 from each 12 tribes.

What do you get when you multiply
12,000
X 12
= 144,000

Yea.thats about right.

Obviously you were not listening well.

What is really a myth is thinking that only 144,000 of all Israel are literally going to be saved, or that the number 144,000 is symbolic (a spiritual number) but that they are still tribes from the nation of Israel literally. That's like attempting to have your cake and eat it too. As always, one of the best rules to a sound Hermeneutic is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."

Moreover:

Revelation 7:9

• "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Your reasoning would mean that of the nation of Israel only literally 144,000 are saved, but of the Gentiles were saved a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.

Considering your Dispensational doctrine of the Nation of Israel being the center of salvation, how is that possible, coherent, consistent, logical or harmonious with the rest of your teachings. Again, one of the best rules to a sound system of interpretation is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."

And I see that you have avoided the question about 144 in Revelation 21. Read carefully:

Revelation 21:12-17 KJV
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
[13] On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
[15] And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
[16] And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
[17] And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

 

[Timtofly]

Where did I said that the servants of God are not literal people? We are all God's servants on Earth. Selah. Please read whole post.

Just admitting they are literal people would be a start. What is the big deal about figuring out who they are? They are literal people who follow the Lamb wherever the Lamb goes. Is that not what the 12 disciples did during the 1st century? Were there 12 then? Will there be 144K just like John writes down? Should we re-write history just to prove we can?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Obviously you were not listening well.

What is really a myth is thinking that only 144,000 of all Israel are literally going to be saved, or that the number 144,000 is symbolic (a spiritual number) but that they are still tribes from the nation of Israel literally. That's like attempting to have your cake and eat it too. As always, one of the best rules to a sound Hermeneutic is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."

Moreover:

Revelation 7:9

• "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Your reasoning would mean that of the nation of Israel only literally 144,000 are saved, but of the Gentiles were saved a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Considering your Dispensational doctrine of the Nation of Israel being the center of salvation, how is that possible, coherent, consistent, logical or harmonious with the rest of your teachings. Again, one of the best rules to a sound system of interpretation is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."

2 percent of Israel's population today are Christian.
It's simple. I don't expect the percentage to change much even after the tribulation begins and those Israelis who are killed for testifying of Christ and do not worship the beast or his image and those who continue to the end will amount to about 2 percent of Israel's population.

I really don't expect you to understand. I shouldn't even pay you any mind.Back to ignore.

 

[5thKingdom]

This is patently false. You are reading into verses things that simply aren't there.

You are hilarious.

(1) The "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13] are the PEOPLE on earth
when the Lord Returns.

(2) The ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7:11-14] are the PEOPLE on earth
when the Lord Returns.

(3) The ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17:12-13,17] are the PEOPLE
on earth when the Lord Returns.

(4) The ten "kings" [Dan 2:44] are the PEOPLE on earth
when the Lord Returns.

Please explain to me WHY you think this is (and I quote you)
"This is patently false. You are reading into verses things that simply aren't there"

Have you even READ the verses in question?
Do you simply REJECT what the Scripture says?
Are you making that statement out of pure ignorance?
WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY?

In EACH case they are the People living on earth when
the Lord Returns... indicating they are the SAME PEOPLE
This is not difficult if you care to READ the Scriptures provided.

Jim
.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Just admitting they are literal people would be a start. What is the big deal about figuring out who they are?

What is the big deal here is that you were making a false accusation against me for saying that servants are not literal people when I have not. Don't lie. Look at yourself in the mirror, Timtofly!

They are literal people who follow the Lamb wherever the Lamb goes.

They are real people that the number 144,000 REPRESENT OF! Hello?! Not 144,000 literal people. The number 144,000 has spiritual signification that refers to ALL MEN REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH according to context. Not 144,000 Jewish men standing with a literal lamb upon literal Mount Zion! It is spiritual discerned which you with carnal mind obviously lacks.

Is that not what the 12 disciples did during the 1st century? Were there 12 then?

Can't you check with Scripture to find out? Asking those questions only proved that you have not really studied well.

Didn't you read and realize that God is talking about the whole New Testament Church build upon the foundation of the 12 apostles (Revelation 21:14)?

Ephesians 2:19-22 KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Will there be 144K just like John writes down?

John heard the number and saw the great multitude as a result. Get it? Selah!

Should we re-write history just to prove we can?

What are you talking about? There is no re-write history. You need spiritual discernment to know what Christ talked about!

 

[5thKingdom]

I tried addressing that in another thread where he brought this up there as well. Either he didn't see that post yet, or he is avoiding it like the plague. If the latter, why is he still promoting this nonsense?

The following is how I tried to address it at the time.

David... I did NOT see you "addressing this in another thread"...
I do not always get notification of a new post.

Do you REALLY think I am "avoiding you like the plague"?
Have I EVER not responded in great detail to your questions?
You did not even KNOW about the "Season and Time" until
I taught it to you. I am disappointed in your statement above.

I have responded to your questions and I have just responded
to the statement of "Friend of" in Post #85.

Believe it or not, I have a life and cannot sit at the computer
all day. And, as I said, I do not always get notifications of
new comments.

But... as you can see in my response to "friend of"...
I am only seeing DENIAL of my statements. I never see
any SCRIPTURE that refutes my statements. That is strange,
don't you think

Jim
.

 

[DavidPT]

Just admitting they are literal people would be a start. What is the big deal about figuring out who they are? They are literal people who follow the Lamb wherever the Lamb goes. Is that not what the 12 disciples did during the 1st century? Were there 12 then? Will there be 144K just like John writes down? Should we re-write history just to prove we can?

The way what he said read to me, was not that the 144,000 are not literal people, but that they are not 144,000 literal people, as in only 144K total.

It might be like Jehovah Witnesses who take the 144K to be meaning some of them, and that only 144K JWs are worthy of being among the literal 144K. Imagine if you were a JW, and that you thought for certain you were among the literal 144K that are worthy to be among them, but by the time all of the worthy JWs are added up, you are 144,001 on the list, thus didn't make it after all. So close, almost made the 144K. One could then say, well better luck next time---except there won't be a next time, though.

 

[5thKingdom]

Selah!

Erik, you are hilarious.
I love it that you say "Selah" just like your
master Tony Warren. You cannot even be original,
can you... you just repeat everything Tony teaches.

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

2 percent of Israel's population today are Christian.

What are you so obsessed with the population of nation Israel today? It has NOTHING to do what God talked about in Revelation 7:4, 14:1, 14:3, and 21:14. Period!

I really don't expect you to understand.

Say one who has not even quote a single verse to support his private opinion! You have been toying with nation Israel based on what you see on the news, instead of allowing Scripture to be its own interpreter. Yeah, that is you who lacks understanding.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The way what he said read to me, was not that the 144,000 are not literal people, but that they are not 144,000 literal people, as in only 144K total.

Correct!

It might be like Jehovah Witnesses who take the 144K

I am aware of JW's doctrine on 144k and I can see why some people thought my doctrine is like JW's and its not at all! My doctrine on 144,000, based on my understanding of what Scripture actually says, is not the same as theirs. My friend wrote a study on this who is welcome to read here.

 

[5thKingdom]

I tried addressing that in another thread where he brought this up there as well. Either he didn't see that post yet, or he is avoiding it like the plague. If the latter, why is he still promoting this nonsense?

The following is how I tried to address it at the time.

David... you read my post on the "Final Harvest"...
have you EVER seen or heard that taught before?
Does that not MEAN anything to you?

CAN YOU REFUTE ANY OF IT WITH SCRIPTURE?

Biblical Truth is NOT a matter of opinion.
It is a matter of harmonizing ALL RELATED VERSES.

Simply denying a teaching that harmonizes ALL RELATED VERSES
does not negate a Biblical truth. In fact "denial" means
LESS than nothing... it is simply a personal "feeling"

.

 

[5thKingdom]

My doctrine on 144,000, based on my understanding of what Scripture actually says....

Of course that is not true.
Your doctrine on this matter is from Tony Warren
and he got his doctrine from Harold Camping.

At least tell the TRUTH Erik...
lying is NOT the "fruit" of a Saint.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Sounds like Israel to me. God just went into to much detail for the 144,000 to mean anything else.
12000 from each twelve tribes.

Who was James talking to in the passage below?


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The way what he said read to me, was not that the 144,000 are not literal people, but that they are not 144,000 literal people, as in only 144K total.

I want to explain something...take the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 for example.

To most carnal Christians, they believe God was talking about two very literal people who will have some sort of superpower to convert Israeli Jews to Christ during the Great Tribulation. But this is NOT what John talked about.

Let read us read Scripture first.

Acts 1:8 KJV
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We read that at Pentecost, God has given His witnesses the power to preach Gospel to the world. This is the great commission of the New Testament Congregation which some of us are.

Now, why did God said He will give power to "Two Witnesses?" Does it mean that God was talking about two literal individuals? NO! The two witnesses are a "SYMBOL" of God's faithful servants, the true eternal indivisible Church. The very power that God has given to His witnesses. Why "two?" Because the number two has spiritual signify to symbol the power that Witnesses carry. The number two in Scripture signifies "Truth." So God is talking about His people having the Truth to preach the Gospel. This is what their power is about. They are empowered by the Holy Spirit to have TRUTHFUL testimony. There are many of us, not just two people! That is why many people have the wrong doctrine about Two Witnesses thinking God was talking about two individuals. Just like we saw some people assumed that the 144,000 must be 144,000 literal men when God is talking about great multitudes of redeemed people that the 144,000 represent!

 

[BABerean2]

The passage that you quote tells us nothing about a coming antichrist.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.
In Romans 11 the Apostle Paul uses the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New
Covenant Church.
Therefore, the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

Who do you think attacks the people of God in Revelation chapter 11?

.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Who was James talking to in the passage below?


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


.

The twelve tribes scattered abroad.
That was a tough question. Anymore like that an I'm going to have to take a vacation.

 

[Timtofly]

What is the big deal here is that you were making a false accusation against me for saying that servants are not literal people when I have not. Don't lie. Look at yourself in the mirror, Timtofly!
They are real people that the number 144,000 REPRESENT OF! Hello?! Not 144,000 literal people. The number 144,000 has spiritual signification that refers to ALL MEN REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH according to context. Not 144,000 Jewish men standing with a literal lamb upon literal Mount Zion! It is spiritual discerned which you with carnal mind obviously lacks.
Can't you check with Scripture to find out? Asking those questions only proved that you have not really studied well.
Didn't you read and realize that God is talking about the whole New Testament Church build upon the foundation of the 12 apostles (Revelation 21:14)?
Ephesians 2:19-22 KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
John heard the number and saw the great multitude as a result. Get it? Selah!
What are you talking about? There is no re-write history. You need spiritual discernment to know what Christ talked about!

So the point is dictating a meaning above the literal text? I am assuming the logic indicates that there were never 12 disciples applies? They in like number were just the 12 tribes of Israel? See, re-writing history.

It would be too simple to just claim there will be 144K literal humans who are actually living today?

Why take a simple fact, and turn it into the history of the whole world? The church incorporates the whole of Adam's descendants. Not all descendants care to participate. That is not an interpretative view of similiar numbers. That is just an historical fact.

 

[BABerean2]

The twelve tribes scattered abroad.
That was a tough question. Anymore like that an I'm going to have to take a vacation.

Almost all Bible scholars would say the Book of James is addressed to the Church...

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Who was James talking to in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Just as the Bible tells us of the old covenant and the new covenant, so it presents an old Israel and a new Israel. The old Israel was constituted under the twelve tribes named after the twelve sons of Jacob. The new Israel is constituted under the twelve apostles.

James 1:1
"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

The reason the apostle James addressed the church as "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" is because the New Testament church, comprised of Jews and Gentiles, now constitutes the new Israel of God.

And it is also ridiculous to think that the same James was writing to the Jews in the Middle East and not the Church:

James 5:7-9 KJV
[7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
[9] Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

And we are spiritually tribes of the children of the Israel and God is out husband. This is who God talks about:

Galatians 6:15-16 KJV
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

We, Christians, are Israel in God, the spiritual tribes of the children of Israel along with the Old Testament Elect!