Antarctic Thwaites glacier sitting on above freezing water

[essentialsaltes]

Scientists say the first recorded measurements of warm water under a glacier in Antarctica could signal the unstoppable demise of the Florida-sized ice sheet.

The warm water found below the Thwaites Glacier, part of the Western Antarctic Ice Sheet, was 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit above freezing, according to scientists from New York University and NYU Abu Dhabi.

The warm water was discovered at the glacier’s grounding zone, the point where the ice is no longer resting fully on bedrock but is floating on the ocean. As the ice at the bottom of the glacier melts, more of the glacier slides into the ocean. That causes sea level to rise.

As I understand it, it was quite an effort to make the measurement. They had to drill through the entire glacier at a point near the grounding zone to sample the water. The temperature down there was an unknown -- and now it is a known.

The fact that the water is warm enough to melt ice means two things.
#1: obviously it's melting the glacier
#2: there is enough current to keep bringing new warm water there (otherwise, a little bit would melt and then the water and ice would be in thermal equilibrium at the same temperature) - which means the melting is an ongoing process.

While I wouldn't call it 'fast', the ultimate result could be 2-8 feet of sea level rise from this location alone.

 

[Ophiolite]

While I wouldn't call it 'fast', the ultimate result could be 2-8 feet of sea level rise from this location alone.

I am counting on all the global ice melting. That way I end up with beach front property and a delightful little creek that will take a nice ketch. I also get to snub my nose at all the global warming deniers, so it is a win-win situation.

 

[Brightmoon]

Unfortunately I live in NYC I’d be treading water.

 

[DennisTate]

Scientists say the first recorded measurements of warm water under a glacier in Antarctica could signal the unstoppable demise of the Florida-sized ice sheet.

The warm water found below the Thwaites Glacier, part of the Western Antarctic Ice Sheet, was 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit above freezing, according to scientists from New York University and NYU Abu Dhabi.

The warm water was discovered at the glacier’s grounding zone, the point where the ice is no longer resting fully on bedrock but is floating on the ocean. As the ice at the bottom of the glacier melts, more of the glacier slides into the ocean. That causes sea level to rise.

As I understand it, it was quite an effort to make the measurement. They had to drill through the entire glacier at a point near the grounding zone to sample the water. The temperature down there was an unknown -- and now it is a known.

The fact that the water is warm enough to melt ice means two things.
#1: obviously it's melting the glacier
#2: there is enough current to keep bringing new warm water there (otherwise, a little bit would melt and then the water and ice would be in thermal equilibrium at the same temperature) - which means the melting is an ongoing process.

While I wouldn't call it 'fast', the ultimate result could be 2-8 feet of sea level rise from this location alone.

The vulnerability of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet to rapid collapse is one of the reasons why I like the Carl Cantrell alternative theory on stabilization of the climate so much more than a Carbon Tax or Cap and Trade System.

Global Warming II by Carl Cantrell

“So how is our problem of continental drying causing global warming? It all has to do with vegetation and sunlight. When sun light hits a plant, it causes a process which we call photosynthesis where the energy from the sun light creates oxygen for us to breath, water for us to drink, and is stored as sugar for plants and animals to use. When the same sun light hits the soil, all of its energy turns into heat and is radiated back into the atmosphere, carried away by running surface water such as rain fall, is carried away to other areas by our winds, and diffuses down into the soil towards the earth's crust. All of this warms our planet increasing its average temperature.”

“Therefore, the less vegetation you have on the planet, the more sunlight is being turned into heat and the warmer the planet becomes. This is very critical because warmer and dryer winds dry out other land areas faster decreasing the vegetation on those land areas. Less humidity in the air also reflects less sun light back out into space so that more sun light strikes the earth and more heat is generated….”

“The truth is that you can do more to decrease global warming by just reducing the average temperature for the Sahara Desert by one or two degrees than if we humans completely quit using fossil fuels and returned to the cave….”

“So, how would you start working to resolve this problem? Easy, cool the deserts and get some vegetation growing on them as soon as possible. But the method is much more complex than that. You have to use the prevailing trade winds in relation to the deserts to get the best results as quickly as possible and it will be extremely expensive….”

“Then we build desalination plants along the coast near these water sheds and pipe water to the tops or ridges of the water sheds…”

“This will do a number of things. First, it will increase the moisture in the desert soil so that it will develop water tables and water will begin to run in the streams. This water will increase the amount of vegetation in the area and decrease the amount of heat being generated by sun light cooling the watered area and all areas down wind of the watered area. As more available water evaporates, it will cool the air and reflect more sun light back out into space cooling the area even more. Cooler and more humid air will have less of a heating effect on areas down wind and will reflect more sun light back into space in those areas cooling areas we won't be watering yet. Cooler and more humid air will also have less of a warming effect on our seas and oceans.”

“Rain water running off of cooler soil will decrease the heating effect on our oceans and our planet crusts which will decrease catastrophic storm activities for other areas and seismic activity for the entire planet. Also, returning more ocean water to the surface and aquifers of our continents will lower the sea levels providing more usable land for us to farm and build on.”

“With cooler desert areas and increasing vegetation, less water will evaporate from our deserts increasing the amount of surface water even more and increasing the amount of vegetation and animal life by huge amounts because deserts currently take up more than 20% of our land surface. Populations will be able to spread out and there will be less competition for existing land areas.”

“This strategy has to be done in steps with the first step being to begin slowing the rate at which our global warming is increasing. We need to focus on that until we have brought it to a point to where the temperature is not increasing any more and is reasonably stable. While we are doing this, we need to come to a global consensus of just how cool we want to cool our planet down to. If we cool it down too much, we will begin to have devastatingly harsh winters in large populated areas and even cause an ice age to set in.”

“Then we begin cooling the planet down to a point which will be most beneficial for all countries or the planet as a whole. We need to gradually bring the temperature down because there may be a lag effect in which the planet will continue cooling after we stop increasing our efforts to cool it off more. We may even want to stop cooling the planet once or twice before we reach our targeted temperatures to see if there is a lag effect…”


“We need to start working on this as soon as possible because, if the planet reaches a point to where it is warming faster than our technology can possibly stop or reverse this warming trend, then our planet is lost and all life will cease to exist on this planet within a relatively short period of time. We will need to start with the largest and hottest deserts because cooling them will have the greatest benefit in the least time (Global Warming II by biologist Carl Cantrell).”

Every cubic meter of ocean water that is desalinated and added to the water table of Israel, Jordan, Qatar, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Australia or California is really good news for every low lying city and two on earth.

Cheap Water from the World’s Largest Modern Seawater Desalination Plant

 

[Halbhh]

Scientists say the first recorded measurements of warm water under a glacier in Antarctica could signal the unstoppable demise of the Florida-sized ice sheet.

The warm water found below the Thwaites Glacier, part of the Western Antarctic Ice Sheet, was 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit above freezing, according to scientists from New York University and NYU Abu Dhabi.

The warm water was discovered at the glacier’s grounding zone, the point where the ice is no longer resting fully on bedrock but is floating on the ocean. As the ice at the bottom of the glacier melts, more of the glacier slides into the ocean. That causes sea level to rise.

As I understand it, it was quite an effort to make the measurement. They had to drill through the entire glacier at a point near the grounding zone to sample the water. The temperature down there was an unknown -- and now it is a known.

The fact that the water is warm enough to melt ice means two things.
#1: obviously it's melting the glacier
#2: there is enough current to keep bringing new warm water there (otherwise, a little bit would melt and then the water and ice would be in thermal equilibrium at the same temperature) - which means the melting is an ongoing process.

While I wouldn't call it 'fast', the ultimate result could be 2-8 feet of sea level rise from this location alone.

The potential sea rise from Thwaites alone I've seen reported as 22-26 inches just from Thwaites. But the thing is, if Thwaites starts flowing a lot faster, it won't likely be the only glacier in time doing so.

 

[Strathos]

I am counting on all the global ice melting. That way I end up with beach front property and a delightful little creek that will take a nice ketch. I also get to snub my nose at all the global warming deniers, so it is a win-win situation.

Don't count on it.

You're much more likely to see something like this:

 

[Halbhh]

Don't count on it.

You're much more likely to see something like this:

heh heh! fun. That's better in a way than a news segment I saw of people returning to their homes/streets after California fires and a video news crew captures the moment they got out of their car and just stare at the ashes of their house, shocked.

It's always hard to believe something that is said to happen is really happening until you see it first hand. Sure there are fires, but they won't hit us.

But, this funny video is one to remember! lol It's a better way to look at admitting reality on a gradual change.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Separate study:

Satellite images show that two important glaciers in the Antarctic are sustaining rapid damage at their most vulnerable points, leading to the breaking up of vital ice shelves with major consequences for global sea level rise.

The Pine Island and Thwaites glaciers, which sit side by side in West Antarctica on the Amundsen Sea, are among the fastest changing glaciers in the region, already accounting for 5% of global sea level rise. Scientists say the glaciers are highly sensitive to climate change.

A new study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday, found that the glaciers are weakening at their foundations and this damage over the past few decades is speeding up their retreat and the possible future collapse of their ice shelves.

Article contains a few nice time-lapse satellite images

 

[Halbhh]

Separate study:

Satellite images show that two important glaciers in the Antarctic are sustaining rapid damage at their most vulnerable points, leading to the breaking up of vital ice shelves with major consequences for global sea level rise.

The Pine Island and Thwaites glaciers, which sit side by side in West Antarctica on the Amundsen Sea, are among the fastest changing glaciers in the region, already accounting for 5% of global sea level rise. Scientists say the glaciers are highly sensitive to climate change.

A new study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday, found that the glaciers are weakening at their foundations and this damage over the past few decades is speeding up their retreat and the possible future collapse of their ice shelves.

Article contains a few nice time-lapse satellite images

The yearly time lapse of the Pine Island Glacier starting at 1973 through 2020 stood out in it's sudden change of the calving front location in recent years.


In the North it's noted that the models for sea ice melt aren't keeping up with the reality, and it would be expected to find out that is often true in the South also. Such as how it was a recent surprise to discover relatively warmer than guessed water arriving to the base of the ice on one of the glaciers, as we posted somewhere in a thread also showing some video of the scientists and their equipment on the ice.

 

[essentialsaltes]

LINK

The new study is based on field observations from 2019 when a team of two dozen scientists sent an autonomous orange submarine named Ran down underneath Thwaites. For 13 hours, the underwater vehicle traveled around two deep troughs beneath the glacier that funnel warm water toward it. As it did, the vehicle captured data showing that warm water—warm for a glacier, at up to 33.89 degrees Fahrenheit (1.05 degrees Celsius)—is swirling around the glacier’s crucial “pinning points,” or the points of contact where the ice shelf meets the bedrock that holds it in place. This warm water is melting away these crucial holds, making room for cracks and troughs in ice that can make the shelf all the more unstable.

“The worry is that this water is coming into direct contact with the underside of the ice shelf at the point where the ice tongue and shallow seafloor meet,” Alastair Graham, associate professor of geological oceanography at the University of Southern Florida and study co-author, who was on the research expedition to the glacier, wrote in an email. “This is the last stronghold for Thwaites and once it unpins from the sea bed at its very front, there is nothing else for the ice shelf to hold onto. That warm water is also likely mixing in and around the grounding line, deep into the cavity, and that means the glacier is also being attacked at its feet where it is resting on solid rock.”

The discovery of warm water confirms previous concerns from a separate project [the study in the OP], wherein another group of 100 scientists drilled a hole 2,000 feet into the glacier.

All this has very serious consequences for those living along the coast. Thwaites Glacier’s collapse would raise sea levels by 1.5 to 3 feet (0.5 to 0.9 meters), and could also trigger an even worse chain of events because it could initiate the collapse of another nearby imperiled ice shelf, the Pine Island Glacier. Together, these shelves act as a braking mechanism on land ice that, if released into the open waters, could push seas up to 10 feet (3.1 meters), overwhelming coastal cities around the world.

 

[HARK!]

As I understand it, it was quite an effort to make the measurement. They had to drill through the entire glacier at a point near the grounding zone to sample the water. The temperature down there was an unknown -- and now it is a known.

So in other words no one knows how long the water has been at this temperature, below the ice?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am counting on all the global ice melting. That way I end up with beach front property and a delightful little creek that will take a nice ketch. I also get to snub my nose at all the global warming deniers, so it is a win-win situation.

Perhaps we should get together on this. I need to check a topo map to see how much sea level rise that I can take.

 

[HARK!]

Perhaps we should get together on this. I need to check a topo map to see how much sea level rise that I can take.

US Topo: Maps for America

 

[Subduction Zone]

US Topo: Maps for America

Thanks, but I have done it before. It turns out that I want a touch over 100 feet of sea level rise. No more.

If all of the ice caps, both Antarctica and Greenland melt, I am toast.

 

[Halbhh]

LINK

The new study is based on field observations from 2019 when a team of two dozen scientists sent an autonomous orange submarine named Ran down underneath Thwaites. For 13 hours, the underwater vehicle traveled around two deep troughs beneath the glacier that funnel warm water toward it. As it did, the vehicle captured data showing that warm water—warm for a glacier, at up to 33.89 degrees Fahrenheit (1.05 degrees Celsius)—is swirling around the glacier’s crucial “pinning points,” or the points of contact where the ice shelf meets the bedrock that holds it in place. This warm water is melting away these crucial holds, making room for cracks and troughs in ice that can make the shelf all the more unstable.

“The worry is that this water is coming into direct contact with the underside of the ice shelf at the point where the ice tongue and shallow seafloor meet,” Alastair Graham, associate professor of geological oceanography at the University of Southern Florida and study co-author, who was on the research expedition to the glacier, wrote in an email. “This is the last stronghold for Thwaites and once it unpins from the sea bed at its very front, there is nothing else for the ice shelf to hold onto. That warm water is also likely mixing in and around the grounding line, deep into the cavity, and that means the glacier is also being attacked at its feet where it is resting on solid rock.”

The discovery of warm water confirms previous concerns from a separate project [the study in the OP], wherein another group of 100 scientists drilled a hole 2,000 feet into the glacier.

All this has very serious consequences for those living along the coast. Thwaites Glacier’s collapse would raise sea levels by 1.5 to 3 feet (0.5 to 0.9 meters), and could also trigger an even worse chain of events because it could initiate the collapse of another nearby imperiled ice shelf, the Pine Island Glacier. Together, these shelves act as a braking mechanism on land ice that, if released into the open waters, could push seas up to 10 feet (3.1 meters), overwhelming coastal cities around the world.

I was reading a similar article the other day.

This was interesting also:
https://phys.org/news/2021-04-antarctic-ice-shelf-area-collapse.html

Perhaps we should get together on this. I need to check a topo map to see how much sea level rise that I can take.

 

[Halbhh]

So in other words no one knows how long the water has been at this temperature, below the ice?

I think 'yes' to that question, but it's more just indicative that the water is warmer than was guessed ahead of time and is seen to be thus melting the pinning points that support the ice.

 

[Halbhh]

Thanks, but I have done it before. It turns out that I want a touch over 100 feet of sea level rise. No more.

If all of the ice caps, both Antarctica and Greenland melt, I am toast.

Well, you'd also need a local projection due to how it turns out that the local increase in a given coastal area varies from the average increase.

 

[HARK!]

I think 'yes' to that question, but it's more just indicative that the water is warmer than was guessed ahead of time and is seen to be thus melting the pinning points that support the ice.

If the ice wasn't melting at some point, the whole world would eventually covered in ice. I don't believe for a second, that the scientists who started drilling through the ice, had no idea what the water temperature was in the sea surrounding the perimeter of the ice, at that depth, before they started drilling to that same depth in the ice.

Why drill through the ice to measure the water temperature at that depth, rather than just measure the water temperature from the edge of the ice? Come on! Obviously the water under the ice is below sea level or it would run off. It appears that they proved that ice floats.

 

[Halbhh]

If the ice wasn't melting at some point, the whole world would eventually covered in ice. I don't believe for a second, that the scientists who started drilling through the ice, had no idea what the water temperature was in the sea surrounding the perimeter of the ice, at that depth, before they started drilling to that same depth in the ice.

Why drill through the ice to measure the water temperature at that depth, rather than just measure the water temperature from the edge of the ice. Come on! Obviously the water under the ice is below sea level or it would run off. It appears that they proved that ice floats.

So, measuring net change in total ice -- by observing the change in total ice present for instance by precise measurement of the thickness of the ice over time with radar for instance -- is one of the key types of measuring which some groups of researchers work on getting good observational data.

Another method of much interest is measuring the velocity of glacial flow over time (over decades), to see whether it increases.

So, in addition to old stuff you've probably seen like measuring glacial retreat (how the front edge of a glacier moves back over time (decades), there are several other ways to confirm and get more detail on what is happening, observationally.

 

[HARK!]

So, measuring net change in total ice -- by observing the change in total ice present for instance by precise measurement of the thickness of the ice over time with radar for instance -- is one of the key types of measuring which some groups of researchers work on getting good observational data.

Another method of much interest is measuring the velocity of glacial flow over time (over decades), to see whether it increases.

So, in addition to old stuff you've probably seen like measuring glacial retreat (how the front edge of a glacier moves back over time (decades), there are several other ways to confirm and get more detail on what is happening, observationally.

This is what I was responding to:

The temperature down there was an unknown -- and now it is a known.