Answers in Genesis - Scientific Staff ????

[Chi_Cygni]

I was involved on another forum in a discussion with someone, who kept throwing out AIG's expert scientific staff. So I did some checking and here they are, in all their glory:

Dr. Weiland - medical doctor
Dr. White - ex chemist/college registrar (no research in 30 years)
Dr. Walker - mechanical engineer
Mr. Tilton - ex Navy - Bob Jones U. grad (eeeeeeeek)
Mr. Stevens - minister
Mr. Sparrow - ex high school teacher
Dr. Silvestru - ex geologist (Romania) (no research I can find)
Mr. Schwartzman - ex zoo keeper
Dr. Safarti - ex chemist (amateur physicist and known fraud)
Mr. Robertson - ex hydrologist, now a minister
Dr. Parker - ex zoologist
Mr. Oard - ex meteorologist
Dr. Mortenson - geology historian now a minister
Dr. Menton - ex anatomist
Ms. McKeever - ? (works with young kids)
Dr. Kruger - ex zoologist (nematodes)
Mr. Kendy - ex air traffic controller
Mr. Jack - ex school teacher
Mr Ham - CEO of AIG - no qualifications
Mr. Fangrad - electronics technician
Dr. Driggers - ex telecommunications
Mr. DeRoos - agricultural science
Mr. Davis - singer/artist (known for fake dinosaur bone fraud in Alaska)
Dr. Catchpole - ex horticulturist
Mr. Berra - ex food science
Mr. Bell - ex high school teacher
Dr. BaumGardner - geophysicist (noted for CPT theory, and his government boss writing a letter stating his computer code has been misused in flood research)
Dr. Batten - ex agriculture
Mr. Bates - ? (no qualifications?)
Mr A. Bates - ex firefighter
Mr. Armstrong - ex marketer

Not exactly the National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society.

This info is from AIG themselves, so I don't know the accuracy but I'll take them at their word.

Not a single physicist, except BaumGardner who has been rebuked by using his computer code to a problem other geophysicists say it isn't applicable for.

Not a single astronomer/astrophysicist/cosmologist - what a surprise

Not a single biologist/molecular biologist/biochemist/paleontologist/archeologist.

A couple of ex chemists and zoologists - none currently working in the field.

Otherwise a collection of laymen with little to no scientific training.

**** Another key point is that almost every single person on this list is employed full time by AIG *****

Their livelihood depends on their maintaining a YEC position. Unlike the academic community where tenure provides academic freedom, I'll hazard a guess that AIG would terminate you pretty quickly if you changed your view, or your research supported mainstream science. Of course their 'research' is fixed from the get go so as to not do this.

Also go to AIG website (www.answersingenesis.org) and read these peoples testimonials.

Several of them specifically say, once I was converted to Christ and YEC I knew I had to look harder at science to back this up (I'm paraphrasing of course.) Thus they looked, and they found it of course because they had set their whole faith to be dependent upon it. Way to go for intellectual integrity.

 

[Arikay]

Yeah, its amazing that AIG is against evolution so much, yet they dont have any biologists, the field that Evolution is in.

Also, its interesting to note that AIG makes their people sign a "statement of faith" that basically says that no matter what the evidence says, a literal 6000 year old earth and 6 day creation is correct.

 

[Vance]

And they have the gall to say that non-YEC scientists have an agenda to pursue! When the person signing your paycheck indicates that only one possible result is allowed, it is not surprising that you go out and find that result.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Unlike the academic community where tenure provides academic freedom, I'll hazard a guess that AIG would terminate you pretty quickly if you changed your view, or your research supported mainstream science.

Check their statement of faith that they require their members to adhere to. Part of it includes automatically dismissing anything contrary to their preconceived beliefs. They are a paradigm of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[TrueCreation]

Dr. BaumGardner - geophysicist (noted for CPT theory, and his government boss writing a letter stating his computer code has been misused in flood research)

--Have you seen this letter, if you have, please post it here or e-mail it to me please. I would like to have a look.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[Chi_Cygni]

Perhaps I have should have used the word alleged letter.

I have seen reference to this.

I believe the story is that his employer (Los Alamos) was asked about his mantle code being used for flood research. The response I heard was that the code was not applicable for such a question and that his supervisor distanced their group from such work. At the time this was occurring I believe the code in question was not even working correctly for it's intended purpose.

Correct me if I am wrong here, because this story is definitely out there.

 

[Chi_Cygni]

I will say one thing about BaumGardner's CPT work though.

It's ****.

His program actually models plate tectonics quite well. The trouble is when he uses it for Creationist work he changes (miraculously - and he admits he needs a divine event to make this happen) the thermal diffusivity and such parameters of the mantle to get his runaway subduction.

This is not science.

Also let's be clear about BaumGardner - he's not a geologist or really a geophysicist any more - he's a computer modeler.

I honestly haven't heard much about CPT for years - as it's main points had been found to be flawed years ago.

Where does the heat go being a big problem? Where is the huge volcanic region from the magma bubble?

 

[TrueCreation]

Perhaps I have should have used the word alleged letter.

I have seen reference to this.

I believe the story is that his employer (Los Alamos) was asked about his mantle code being used for flood research. The response I heard was that the code was not applicable for such a question and that his supervisor distanced their group from such work. At the time this was occurring I believe the code in question was not even working correctly for it's intended purpose.

Correct me if I am wrong here, because this story is definitely out there.

--I never heard it. But anyways, if you come accross it, don't hesitate to post it.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[Chi_Cygni]

I'll try to find it.

I read the reference a week or so ago.

Also if memory serves me right I recall when the CPT theory came out I guess over a decade ago now it was on TV about a Los Alamos scientist being a creationist and I thought back then Los Alamos stressed this was Baumgardner's out of work hobby and they didn't want it to be associated with them.

Anyway, I shall try to find the story.

 

[TrueCreation]

I will say one thing about BaumGardner's CPT work though.

It's ****.

His program actually models plate tectonics quite well. The trouble is when he uses it for Creationist work he changes (miraculously - and he admits he needs a divine event to make this happen) the thermal diffusivity and such parameters of the mantle to get his runaway subduction.

--No, this is a common misconception. No relevant parameters (such as thermal conductivity) are messed with in his 2D simulations. However, he does scale some parameters in his 3D simulations, but you must do this in any 3D run, even in the mainstream literature he has to do this to get the accurate results. The reason for doing this is not ad hoc, but is merely the result of the lack in computer power to handle the 3D runs, and so parameters are scaled to compensate for the decrease in the grid resolution. The only purpose of his 3D simulations is to show the tectonic style of plate motion predicted during runaway subduction and CPT. And so, his modeling of runaway subduction and CPT is not [whatever you have in asterisks].

This is not science.

--Actually his reasons for doing this are about as scientific as science can get.

Also let's be clear about BaumGardner - he's not a geologist or really a geophysicist any more - he's a computer modeler.

--No.. he is a geophysicist.

I honestly haven't heard much about CPT for years - as it's main points had been found to be flawed years ago.

--You mean like an anomalously high thermal diffusivity?

Where does the heat go being a big problem? Where is the huge volcanic region from the magma bubble?

--The only heat problem is that resulting from the cooling of the newly forming oceanic lithosphere, there exists no heat problem wth runaway subduction itself. And this problem is currently under research, but we have some good suggestions. Furthermore the heat released by the runaway subduction of pre-flood ocean lithosphere is released deep in the mantle and so does not impose a significant problem.

--Please clarify what you ean by 'the huge volcanic region from the magma bubble'.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[TrueCreation]

Also if memory serves me right I recall when the CPT theory came out I guess over a decade ago now it was on TV about a Los Alamos scientist being a creationist and I thought back then Los Alamos stressed this was Baumgardner's out of work hobby and they didn't want it to be associated with them.

--Unsurprising.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

--Unsurprising.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

Of course it's not surprising. I wouldn't want to be associated scientifically with someone who claimed to be a scientist and wrote something as silly as

“It plausibly leads to intense global rain as hot magma erupted in zones of plate divergence, in direct contact with ocean water, creates bubbles of high pressure steam that emerge from the ocean, rise rapidly through the atmosphere, radiate their heat to space, and precipitate their water as rain.”

http://www.icr.org/research/jb/largescaletectonics.htm

Just because they worked at the same institute since this is not the least bit plausible for a number reasons. What is surprising is that Young Earth Creationists are so eager to be associated with someone who published this.

Time Scales and Heterogeneous Structure in Geodynamic Earth Models
Hans-Peter Bunge, * Mark A. Richards, Carolina Lithgow-Bertelloni, John R. Baumgardner, Stephen P. Grand, Barbara A. Romanowicz Science 1998 April 3; 280: 91-95
Abstract:
Computer models of mantle convection constrained by the history of Cenozoic and Mesozoic plate motions explain some deep-mantle structural heterogeneity imaged by seismic tomography, especially those related to subduction. They also reveal a 150-million-year time scale for generating thermal heterogeneity in the mantle, comparable to the record of plate motion reconstructions, so that the problem of unknown initial conditions can be overcome. The pattern of lowermost mantle structure at the core-mantle boundary is controlled by subduction history, although seismic tomography reveals intense large-scale hot (low-velocity) upwelling features not explicitly predicted by the models.

What do you suppose AiG would do with the work of a real scientist who was arguing against the young earth while continuing to publish articles using a young earth timescale? We would never hear the end of claims about "evolutionist hypocrisy".

The frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Chi_Cygni]

LOL - good post FrumiBand.

That is so rich. So he takes money from AIG but takes credit for traditional geophysics that contradicts his YEC position.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

 

[TrueCreation]

Of course it's not surprising. I wouldn't want to be associated scientifically with someone who claimed to be a scientist and wrote something as silly as


http://www.icr.org/research/jb/largescaletectonics.htm

[Snip]

--So I presume you have solved the equations relevant to the mechanism of steam jets since you conclude it is so silly, or is this just your "guess"?

Just because they worked at the same institute since this is not the least bit plausible for a number reasons. What is surprising is that Young Earth Creationists are so eager to be associated with someone who published this.

--I don't think Baumgardner doesn't get any more pride out of his mainstream work than he does when working on his runaway subduction model.

What do you suppose AiG would do with the work of a real scientist who was arguing against the young earth while continuing to publish articles using a young earth timescale?

--Depends on the content. Besides, I don't know the AiG staff and how they work outside of the objective criteria they have on their site.

--Baumgardner's work on runaway subduction is exceptional and no one seems to be able to appreciate it.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[TrueCreation]

LOL - good post FrumiBand.

That is so rich. So he takes money from AIG but takes credit for traditional geophysics that contradicts his YEC position.

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

--Baumgardner gets money from AiG for what? There are at least two realms you can work in, faith/belief, and scientific methodology. Baumgardner works with the latter and thus can appreciate scientific research mainstream or not.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

So I presume you have solved the equations relevant to the mechanism of steam jets since you conclude it is so silly, or is this just your "guess"?

Read the quote again. It says bubbles of high pressure steam that emerge from the ocean and rise through the atmosphere. There is nothing about jets. High pressure steam is denser than air until it it expands quite a bit and gas pressure differentials equalize at approximately the speed of sound and heat is going to radiate in every direction during the entire process so Baumgardner's quote is ridiculous.


The absurdity of the blowing the oceans into space to cool the entire ocean crust and lithosphere in a short time without cooking the earth to death should be completely clear to anyone who actually thinks it through without solving any equations but that is not what Baumgardner wrote on the web page I quoted.

The frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

--Baumgardner gets money from AiG for what? There are at least two realms you can work in, faith/belief, and scientific methodology. Baumgardner works with the latter and thus can appreciate scientific research mainstream or not.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

So he is collecting funds from both sides of the fence and you can't see any problem with this. Can you say hypocrite? Added in edit: Maybe he is not collecting personal funds from AiG but he is allowing himself to be a hero of the young earth movement and helps them to collect funds while still publishing papers with old earth time lines. I can't think of any other releam where such hyprocrisy would be tolerated. YECs must not only turn a blind eye to huge masses of data that falsify their so-called science, they must also turn a blind eye to the behavior of some of their leadership.


The frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Chi_Cygni]

--Baumgardner gets money from AiG for what? There are at least two realms you can work in, faith/belief, and scientific methodology. Baumgardner works with the latter and thus can appreciate scientific research mainstream or not.

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

Chris,

Baumgardner is an adjunct professor for AIG. He appears at paid speaking engagements for them. He is getting paid by AIG.

This is at odds with his co-authoring papers in which he puts his name on research claiming standard geological science and it's associated Old Earth philosophy.

Also I shall reiterate, he admits himself his runaway subduction/CPT theory requires divine intervention to change physical properties of the crust/mantle.

The heat produced is a major problem.

I also caught your postings on another forum where your calculations were ridiculously in error, as a couple of geologists pointed out to you.

I applaud your efforts but I see you are still a kid and you really need to learn some more science before rushing off and calculating things you don't yet have a grasp of. You were out by several orders of magnitudes from my perusal of the material on the evc forum.

 

[Jet Black]

perhaps he is doing good science and as a hobby, ripping off the rip off merchants. Of course he could never admit this, but if it is so, then I applaud him for his efforts.

 

[LorentzHA]

AIG makes their people sign a "statement of faith" that basically says that no matter what the evidence says, a literal 6000 year old earth and 6 day creation is correct.

Yeah, who needs facts anyhow? Best for them to stick to the company line, the facts be d*mn*d!