Answering Church of Christ objections to Reformed Faith

[InspiredHome]

Hi everyone. I'm still fairly new to the Reformed Faith (just started learning about 5 years ago and just recently started attending an OPC we hope to become members of.) I grew up in the CoC and attended there until I was about 22. Since becoming Reformed my father, sister, and brother-in-law have questioned me a lot and debated me on things like free will and sovereignty and my quoting of Puritans and Reformers. Has anyone debated CoC members? How do you refute their positions on things like baptismal regeneration and free will? Are there any resources you'd recommend that are clear and concise? Thanks!

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi everyone. I'm still fairly new to the Reformed Faith (just started learning about 5 years ago and just recently started attending an OPC we hope to become members of.) I grew up in the CoC and attended there until I was about 22. Since becoming Reformed my father, sister, and brother-in-law have questioned me a lot and debated me on things like free will and sovereignty and my quoting of Puritans and Reformers. Has anyone debated CoC members? How do you refute their positions on things like baptismal regeneration and free will? Are there any resources you'd recommend that are clear and concise? Thanks!

Hi IH, I know many CoC's. I have a number of them in my family and was part of a CoC sponsored prison ministry (the ministry staff and workers were quite ecumenical however).

I assume their Scriptural arguments for baptismal regeneration are from Mark 16:16 and 2 Peter 3:21. Are their others as well? Also, what other kinds of arguments have you faced from them concerning this subject?

As far as "free will" is concerned, I guess I have the similar questions to those above concerning baptismal regeneration. What Scriptures are they targeting and what arguments are they making that we can help you counter?

Thanks!

--David

 

[InspiredHome]

Those and Acts 2:38. They really do have a difficult time with election and presdestination. My dad takes issue with my high view of sovereignty. The old, "We're not robots." and saying that man has the ability to choose God and of course brings the typical prooftexts Arminians love to cite. It's a little frustrating to go round and round with them. They love to give me web sites and anti Calvinism tracts. It's the same old arguments that others have refuted before. The only thing I ever hear is, "Chapter and verse" to whatever argument I have.

 

[twin1954]

The first thing I would tell you is don't argue with them. No one ever wins an argument. If they ask you a question answer it simply and don't allow it to go further. Live before them as someone who rests in the sovereignty of God and leave the conversion to God not argument. Don't let them provoke you or bait you either. Speak the truth in love and leave the rest to God. Most of all pray that the Lord of Glory will open their eyes. Until He does no amount of argument will convince them. It didn't convince you did it?

I almost forgot the most important thing, always bring the conversation back to Christ and His person and work. They must first deal with Christ in truth.

 

[InspiredHome]

Thank you. I try not to argue in the debating sense. I'm looking for clearer answers I can give them as to why I believe the way I do.

 

[twin1954]

Thank you. I try not to argue in the debating sense. I'm looking for clearer answers I can give them as to why I believe the way I do.

Do you honestly think that giving them clear answers will stop the harassment? By all means learn why you believe what you do and where it is found in the Scriptures but don't do it in order to answer folks who will not hear until the Spirit teaches them just as He did you. One of Satan's favorite tactics is to conquer by constant questions. Don't give in to it. They will not be convinced and you will suffer because of it. Rest in the Sovereign Christ and leave it to Him to deal righteously with those who oppose themselves. If He is pleased to use your witness He will prepare you for it and you probably won't even know He is doing it.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Those and Acts 2:38. They really do have a difficult time with election and presdestination. My dad takes issue with my high view of sovereignty. The old, "We're not robots." and saying that man has the ability to choose God and of course brings the typical prooftexts Arminians love to cite. It's a little frustrating to go round and round with them. They love to give me web sites and anti Calvinism tracts. It's the same old arguments that others have refuted before. The only thing I ever hear is, "Chapter and verse" to whatever argument I have.

Just took a quick look at this, and because of that, my comments may be a bit off or not very helpful. If that is the case, please forgive my intrusion and carry on.

When entering a discussion on these issues, the important first step is to AGREE ON A DEFINITION OF TERMS.

If i see 'orange' as a colour in the visible spectrum between red and yellow, and my opposition sees 'orange' as a citrus fruit grown largely in Florida and California, how do we have an intelligent discussion?

FREE WILL: Just what does the Church of Christ mean when it uses the term 'free will'?

ABILITY TO CHOSE GOD: Does that mean that unregenerate man is not physically or mentally inhibited from doing so, or that unregenerate man does not have an unwillingness to do so?

The above was a trick question. Both suggestions are true. Unregenerate man's will is constrained by his nature. The nature of the unregenerate is that they are in rebellion against God. All mankind is also affected in his or her entire being by sin. There is no area, mental, physical, or spiritual which has not been depraved by original sin.* To deny that is to deny original sin. Therefore left alone, they will NOT chose God.

Charles Finney was a Pelagian heretic who did deny original sin, but at least he was consistent on this point. In this i fear the Church of Christ is not consistent.

There is a logical order to the five points of Calvinism --the TULIP accrostic.

The whole system depends on the first point --TOTAL INABILITY. That is a term that should also be defined. If man is totally unable to save himself or care about his condition, then God MUST intervene in order for man to come to salvation. If man is dead in sin, then he can do nothing including choose God. Dead men don't do anything.

*Be aware that some confuse Total Depravity with Utter Depravity. The two are not the same. Utter Depravity is NOT the Calvinist position, and indeed, is self refuting. If mankind was utterly depraved by sin, it would have long ago destroyed itself.

Hope this was helpful.

 

[drjean]

CoC relies upon works. I would stick with the basic--and most important--premise that we can do NOTHING for our salvation. Being dead we cannot even reach out and repent if it were not for the God drawing us (through the Spirit). (Remember, the verses about being 'quickened' refer to our being dead and then the Spirit making us alive.)

Baptism, the way the CoC look at it is a work required for salvation. If it were so there there would be no verses that share accepting Christ for salvation, without a reference to baptism to finish that salvation experience. Of course, there are several verses that have nothing to do with baptism. (The Greek "for" is translated most accurately as "because of" in those verses that they use as a requirement "for" salvation.)

The best way to win others is to show them a changed life, to share only what you did to obtain eternal life and how when you did so, it changed you---a difference from being CoC.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Hi everyone. I'm still fairly new to the Reformed Faith (just started learning about 5 years ago and just recently started attending an OPC we hope to become members of.) I grew up in the CoC and attended there until I was about 22. Since becoming Reformed my father, sister, and brother-in-law have questioned me a lot and debated me on things like free will and sovereignty and my quoting of Puritans and Reformers. Has anyone debated CoC members? How do you refute their positions on things like baptismal regeneration and free will? Are there any resources you'd recommend that are clear and concise? Thanks!

One of my high school friends and his parents were part of a local Church of Christ Church. It has always been my understanding that Church of Christ folks believe one must belong to their denomination to be saved. The particular Church of Christ they attended was also steeped heavy into legalism, such as wearing long sleeve shirts. Strangely, without my realizing it, God used me to help break him and his parents out of that mindset. I mainly talked to his mom about it. I didn't want to be rude, but I asked her if they really believed that all other "Christians" were going to Hell simply because they were not part of the Church of Christ denomination. I explained to her that I believed in Heaven there will be Christians from all denominations. Of course she did not change her mind right then and there, but after some time of their family falling victim to the legalism of CoC, their eyes began to open. I say all this, but unfortunately, once they dropped out of CoC, they dropped out of Church altogether for some time, and moreorless lived like non-Christians. It is hard to say if it was an improvement, and I hope God will open their eyes to His sovereign grace.

If you want lists of Scripture proof texts and such to counter and demonstrate the overwhelming evidence, I am sure me and or JM can help lead you to them.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

www.carm.org

 

[twin1954]

One of my high school friends and his parents were part of a local Church of Christ Church. It has always been my understanding that Church of Christ folks believe one must belong to their denomination to be saved. The particular Church of Christ they attended was also steeped heavy into legalism, such as wearing long sleeve shirts. Strangely, without my realizing it, God used me to help break him and his parents out of that mindset. I mainly talked to his mom about it. I didn't want to be rude, but I asked her if they really believed that all other "Christians" were going to Hell simply because they were not part of the Church of Christ denomination. I explained to her that I believed in Heaven there will be Christians from all denominations. Of course she did not change her mind right then and there, but after some time of their family falling victim to the legalism of CoC, their eyes began to open. I say all this, but unfortunately, once they dropped out of CoC, they dropped out of Church altogether for some time, and moreorless lived like non-Christians. It is hard to say if it was an improvement, and I hope God will open their eyes to His sovereign grace.

If you want lists of Scripture proof texts and such to counter and demonstrate the overwhelming evidence, I am sure me and or JM can help lead you to them.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that this is her family. I know by experience that they will not listen to her. All she can do is to ground herself in the truth of God and humbly pray for the Lord to open their eyes. If she argues or debates with them it will be seen as a weakness in her. My advice to her is sound: live as one who rests in the sovereign grace of God in Christ with unshakable peace and unmovable faith. They will bait her and they will taunt her but if she gives in and tries to answer them it will only strengthen them against her. She doesn't have to answer them. All it will do is gender strife and hard feelings. The most impossible people to witness to are the ones in your own family. Live your faith and don't talk about it is the best way to set an example before your family.

Remember that they are hurt that she has left what they believe is the faith and they also feel she has abandoned them.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

I have a similar problem, although the people in my family are Word of Faith'ers.