Answering Atheists: Does God Exist? - The Design of the Universe

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119 Ministries presents the highly unlikely probability that life was created randomly. This comes from a perspective of Physics; let alone Biology. As one of the topics covered, the Multiverse Theory is explained as irrational in comparison to accepting Intelligent Design.

If all of the many necessary conditions for the universe to exist as we know it, didn't occur within seconds of the creation of the universe; the Universe could not support life. Again, let alone the biological improbabilities.

 
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Although I agree that the multiverse theory multiplies entities beyond any empirical warrant, i.e. Occam's razor, it should be pointed out that there is nothing in Christian orthodox thought that prohibits God from making more than one universe.

All of the illustrations used in the video assume that only one kind of universe is actualized. What is the warrant for making that assumption? Yes, the atheist has no empirical warrant for positing multiple universes, i.e. the multiverse is ad hoc. But, by the same token, the theist has no theological warrant for assuming one, and only one, universe could be actualized. It's a "Mexican standoff," in other words. No slam dunk, for sure.
 
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Although I agree that the multiverse theory multiplies entities beyond any empirical warrant, i.e. Occam's razor, it should be pointed out that there is nothing in Christian orthodox thought that prohibits God from making more than one universe.

All of the illustrations used in the video assume that only one kind of universe is actualized. What is the warrant for making that assumption? Yes, the atheist has no empirical warrant for positing multiple universes, i.e. the multiverse is ad hoc. But, by the same token, the theist has no theological warrant for assuming one, and only one, universe could be actualized. It's a "Mexican standoff," in other words. No slam dunk, for sure.

The argument for the potential of a multiverse falls under argumentum ad ignorantium; whereas the empirical evidence affirms a single universe. The physical laws which govern this universe, entropy for one, lead me to no other conclusion than that the universe was created. Those who refuse to accept the empirical evidence, will argue endless unfounded possibilities, ad nauseam, rooted from the abyss of their collective imaginations.
 
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Although I agree that the multiverse theory multiplies entities beyond any empirical warrant, i.e. Occam's razor, it should be pointed out that there is nothing in Christian orthodox thought that prohibits God from making more than one universe.

All of the illustrations used in the video assume that only one kind of universe is actualized. What is the warrant for making that assumption? Yes, the atheist has no empirical warrant for positing multiple universes, i.e. the multiverse is ad hoc. But, by the same token, the theist has no theological warrant for assuming one, and only one, universe could be actualized. It's a "Mexican standoff," in other words. No slam dunk, for sure.

If I claim that a lot of birds flew around and made a tornado that destroyed one wall of my barn... some folks might say "well the odds of that being true are very tiny".

The insurance agent says "no I think it is more likely you backed your tractor into the barn and destroyed that one wall".

Then I say "well how many alternate universes would I have to imagine to take those odds and finally make it probable". Then they say "10 billion"... so then I respond: "fine. done! I just imagined them".

"So now we have a Mexican stand off"???

========================

Multiple or even infinite universe speculations are a "necessary fiction" for the atheist confronted with problem presented in the OP. It is "Made necessary" with the observation that 1 in 10^120th power is too much fine tuning to be chalked up to "lucky chance".

"Necessary fiction" is not the same as "observed reality" or even "testable reality"
 
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public hermit

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The argument for the potential of a multiverse falls under argumentum ad ignorantium; whereas the empirical evidence affirms a single universe. The physical laws which govern this universe, entropy for one, lead me to no other conclusion than that the universe was created. Those who refuse to accept the empirical evidence, will argue endless unfounded possibilities, ad nauseam, from the abyss of their collective imaginations.

I understand, but the theologian is not committed to what is only available via empirical evidence. The atheist can turn around and claim positing God is argumentum ad ignorantium since there is no direct empirical evidence for God's existence. In other words, if the theologian is willing to allow for an entity that is not readily given via observable experience, then what constraint can the theologian hold the atheist to? The atheist might have made a self-commitment to empiricism, but if they step outside those self imposed bounds the theist can't really complain since the theist already operates outside the emprical.
 
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Although I agree that the multiverse theory multiplies entities beyond any empirical warrant, i.e. Occam's razor, it should be pointed out that there is nothing in Christian orthodox thought that prohibits God from making more than one universe.

All of the illustrations used in the video assume that only one kind of universe is actualized. What is the warrant for making that assumption? Yes, the atheist has no empirical warrant for positing multiple universes, i.e. the multiverse is ad hoc. But, by the same token, the theist has no theological warrant for assuming one, and only one, universe could be actualized. It's a "Mexican standoff," in other words. No slam dunk, for sure.

Ok fine... let's say God created two universes... now what?
 
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I understand, but the theologian is not committed to what is only available via empirical evidence. The atheist can turn around and claim positing God is argumentum ad ignorantium

using the circular argument " the universe had to have created itself because I believe there is no God to create the universe"-- they indeed could argue that way.
 
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I understand, but the theologian is not committed to what is only available via empirical evidence. The atheist can turn around and claim positing God is argumentum ad ignorantium since there is no direct empirical evidence for God's existence. In other words, if the theologian is willing to allow for an entity that is not readily given via observable experience, then what constraint can the theologian hold the atheist to? The atheist might have made a self-commitment to empiricism, but if they step outside those self imposed bounds the theist can't really complain since the theist already operates outside the empirical.

So far I haven't mentioned Elohim in this thread. I simply stated that the laws of Physics, i.e. the empirical evidence, point to no other possibility than that the universe was created. There are still endless possibilities, beyond the limits of facts to support those possibilities.
 
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public hermit

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The multiverse proponent says there are an infinite number of universes all of which are actualized, we just happen to be in the one in which we exist.

The theists, as represented in the OP's video, say that there are many possibilities, but only one universe is actualized, which is the one in which we exist. (When they speak of probabilities and conditions they are tacitly allowing for the full range of possibility).

There is no way to adjudicate between those two positions, empirically speaking. Just as the multiverse theorist has no empirical evidence that there are multiple universes, so also there is no empirical evidence that this universe is the only one. Both positions are functioning on metaphysical assumptions that are beyond the reach of our observational capacities. Hence, Mexican standoff.

Notice, I didn't mention God in laying out the metaphysical differences.
 
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Ok fine... let's say God created two universes... now what?

I was thinking the same thing. Although sometimes going into Mexico seems like I'm stepping into another world. :)
 
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The multiverse proponent says there are an infinite number of universes all of which are actualized, we just happen to be in the one in which we exist.

The purple unicorn proponent says that these unseen universes came from purple unicorn eggs; but he can provide no empirical evidence to support that assertion.
 
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public hermit

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The purple unicorn proponent says that these universes came from purple unicorn eggs; but he can provide no empirical evidence to support that assertion.

Okay, well I'll leave it at that then.
 
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The theists, as represented in the OP's video, say that there are many possibilities, but only one universe is actualized, which is the one in which we exist. (When they speak of probabilities and conditions they are tacitly allowing for the full range of possibility).

These are the same guys who will be the first to whip out Occam's Razor, to cleanly slice off the branch that they're standing on.
 
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These are the same guys who will be the first to whip out Occam's Razor, to cleanly slice off the branch that they're standing on.

I get it. But we don't want to be hasty in making our argument without making sure all the bases are covered, or at least knowing where the vulnerable areas are. That was all I was trying to point out. You don't seem to agree that it's an area of vulnerability, which is fine.
 
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Okay, well I'll leave it at that then.

Many of those who deny the empirical evidence that the Universe was created; would use this as an opportunity to get even more creative.

We can have a contest for who is more imaginative; or we can share logical arguments, where the premises of those arguments are based on empirical evidence.

However, they can't have it both ways.
 
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119 Ministries presents the highly unlikely probability that life was created randomly. This comes from a perspective of Physics; let alone Biology. As one of the topics covered, the Multiverse Theory is explained as irrational in comparison to accepting Intelligent Design.

If all of the many necessary conditions for the universe to exist as we know it, didn't occur within seconds of the creation of the universe; the Universe could not support life. Again, let alone the biological improbabilities.


Ok it is interesting that your argument is "I. D. -- vs -- atheists".

Well done.

In Romans 1 - Paul says that even the pagans are without excuse because the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen through the "things that have been made".

So to not even have the awareness of the pagan - one would have to believe in no god at all.

So for those that believe Romans 1 -- This means that by that standar - the argument against I.D. is "distinctively atheist"
 
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We can have a contest for who is more imaginative; or we can share logical arguments, where the premises of those arguments are based on empirical evidence

This is my point. What empirical evidence do you have, could you possibly have, that this is the only universe? There is no way you can settle it relying on empirical evidence. You can say that this is the only universe that we know of, but that's it. So, your claim that you have logically deduced there is only one universe has no weight. That doesn't mean there are many universes, it just means the limits of what we can know empirically have been reached.

Now, as a theist, you have no way to argue God only created one universe. How will you argue that? Certainly, you don't want to say that God couldn't create more than one. So, now, you have also reached the limit of your theological bounds. So, what now? The assumption that there is only one universe is just that, a theological/metaphysical assumption.
 
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I get it. But we don't want to be hasty in making our argument without making sure all the bases are covered, or at least knowing where the vulnerable areas are. That was all I was trying to point out. You don't seem to agree that it's an area of vulnerability, which is fine.

I posted this thread here; so that those if us who understand the truth, could collectively refine our presentations before presenting them.

As the commentator explained in the video; make your presentation on their ground. I started a thread in the forum that Agnostics and Atheists have access to. It was titled, "Science Proves Creation." I was very careful not to mention Elohim throughout that thread; although several tried to make strawman arguments; I was very careful to stay consistent.

It was uncanny how many of them would dig deep into speculation and imagination, to deny the same science that they use as a weapon on those who believe.

This video introduced facts, and quotes from scientists, that I haven't seen before. When I find the wherewithal; I'll add these to my previous box of tools, in order to make stronger arguments.
 
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I posted this thread here; so that those if us who understand the truth, could collectively refine our presentations before presenting them.

As the commentator explained in the video; make your presentation on their ground. I started a thread in the forum that Agnostics and Atheists have access to. It was titled, "Science Proves Creation." I was very careful not to mention Elohim throughout that thread; although several tried to make strawman arguments; I was very careful to stay consistent.

It was uncanny how many of them would dig deep into speculation and imagination, to deny the same science that they use as a weapon on those who believe.

This video introduced facts, and quotes from scientists, that I haven't seen before. When I find the wherewithal; I'll add these to my previous box of tools, in order to make stronger arguments.

I watched the video and thought it was very good. I didn't mean to give a contrary impression. I appreciate your posting it. Iron sharpens iron, and all.
 
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This is my point. What empirical evidence do you have, could you possibly have, that this is the only universe? There is no way you can settle it relying on empirical evidence. You can say that this is the only universe that we know of, but that's it. So, your claim that you have logically deduced there is only one universe has no weight. That doesn't mean there are many universes, it just means the limits of what we can know empirically have been reached.

Are you familiar with logical arguments? Argumentum ad ignorantium is a logical fallacy. It is also notable to understand who bears the burden of proof in a logical argument.

My purple unicorn egg, carries as much weight in a logical argument, as a multiverse. The burden proof falls on the person who asserts that it exists.
 
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