Another way to defeat pre trib

[zeke37]

just makin' friends.....lol.


ok, this is based on the Resurrection of the just.
here goes....

remember that Satan is defeated...trib is over...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

now, i hope we are all in agreement that this scripture is post trib.
again, the beast defeated, folks don't take the mark during his time....

so the 1st Resurrection is post trib.
so the 1st Resurrection is post trib. (emphasis)

that defeat's anything but a post trib rapture?
so, here's another witness

let's go to 1Thes4, and let's be honest....

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

so, we can argue until we're blue in the face as to what literally occurs in the 17th verse...
but let's be honest here....

the Resurrection of the just happens BEFORE the Rapture/harpazo
the rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the just

and we just learned in Rev20, that trib overcomers are present in the 1st Resurrection

ok, hope that is that....thx!

 

[Choose Wisely]

just makin' friends.....lol.


ok, this is based on the Resurrection of the just.
here goes....

remember that Satan is defeated...trib is over...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

now, i hope we are all in agreement that this scripture is post trib.
again, the beast defeated, folks don't take the mark during his time....

so the 1st Resurrection is post trib.
so the 1st Resurrection is post trib. (emphasis)

that defeat's anything but a post trib rapture?
so, here's another witness

let's go to 1Thes4, and let's be honest....

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

so, we can argue until we're blue in the face as to what literally occurs in the 17th verse...
but let's be honest here....

the Resurrection of the just happens BEFORE the Rapture/harpazo
the rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the just

and we just learned in Rev20, that trib overcomers are present in the 1st Resurrection

ok, hope that is that....thx!

Oh so we are going to be honest. Ok the 1st rapture is pre trib and it will be like the days of Noah, and occur at the trump of God. The second rapture will be pre wrath and it will be like the days of Lot and occur at the last trump.

In such a day as you think not the son of man cometh.

 

[zeke37]

the Resurrection of the just happens BEFORE the Rapture/harpazo
the rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the just

and we just learned in Rev20, that trib overcomers are present in the 1st Resurrection

ok, hope that is that....thx!

Oh so we are going to be honest. Ok the 1st rapture is pre trib and it will be like the days of Noah, and occur at the trump of God. The second rapture will be pre wrath and it will be like the days of Lot and occur at the last trump.

In such a day as you think not the son of man cometh.

i think choose wisely's post goes to show how deceptive the pre trib belief is

sorry cw, i provided scripture which supports what i said, in a very plain and easy to understand way

the first Resurrection cannot be pre trib, because the trib overcomers are included in it....

and the rapture is after the Resurrection of the just

so ya, try to be honest.
if you can't answer the scriptures presented in a pre trib manner, then there ya go.

 

[LastSeven]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

now, i hope we are all in agreement that this scripture is post trib.

Well, I guess that leaves me out.

 

[franky67]

just makin' friends.....lol.


ok, this is based on the Resurrection of the just.
here goes....

remember that Satan is defeated...trib is over...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

now, i hope we are all in agreement that this scripture is post trib.
again, the beast defeated, folks don't take the mark during his time....

so the 1st Resurrection is post trib.
so the 1st Resurrection is post trib. (emphasis)

that defeat's anything but a post trib rapture?
so, here's another witness

let's go to 1Thes4, and let's be honest....

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

so, we can argue until we're blue in the face as to what literally occurs in the 17th verse...
but let's be honest here....

the Resurrection of the just happens BEFORE the Rapture/harpazo
the rapture occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the just

and we just learned in Rev20, that trib overcomers are present in the 1st Resurrection

ok, hope that is that....thx!

Hey Zeke, it's interesting that the word resurrection is not used in either first or second Thess.

Harpazo is what happens in 1 Thes 4, along with resurrection of the dead in Christ, joining their spirits with new bodies .

But nothing is said in Revelation 20:4 and on, about harpazo, It's a catching away of live believers who are standing on the earth, Only time "caught up" appears is in Rev 12:5, and it's about Jesus

I believe Thess. is describing the rescue of Christ's church, those alive, and those, up to that time, who have died.

Could it be that the term "first resurrection" is a reference to the first resurrection of the ones who refused the mark, and died during the 7 years.?

If what you say is right, there had to be living believers on earth at this "post trib" event, but absolutely nothing is said about them .

 

[zeke37]

Hey Zeke, it's interesting that the word resurrection is not used in either first or second Thess.

hi Brother, Christ taught that He shall raise them that believe,(the dead in Christ) at the last day in John 6 and 11.

1Thes4, is showing that event.
we know the rapture is after that event. (I believe immediately after)

remember that there are only 2 choices....
either you are going to be part of the first Resurrection, or the second.
the ones of the first Resurrection get to reign/judge during the Mill

go to Rev5 and we learn that;

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Harpazo is what happens in 1 Thes 4, along with resurrection of the dead in Christ, joining their spirits with new bodies .

ya, but the order is that the dead in Christ get raised(resurrected) first, then after that we who are alive at His Coming get raptured.

the raising is not for life in heaven. it's raising the dead from their "figurative" graves, back on earth again, as promised

and that Raising, is the first Resurrection in Rev20

But nothing is said in Revelation 20:4 and on, about harpazo, It's a catching away of live believers who are standing on the earth, Only time "caught up" appears is in Rev 12:5, and it's about Jesus

as I said, there are only 2 choices...
either you are part of the first Resurrection, or the second.
that includes all pre tribbers, post tribbers, any tribbers, amils, prets, buddists, muslims, idol worshipers and athiests alike
every one.

I believe Thess. is describing the rescue of Christ's church, those alive, and those, up to that time, who have died.

so do I, but not off of the planet, nor before the trib.
it's escape from the wrath of God that He brings when He comes to fight His enemies.
start at 1Thes4:13, and read strait through until 1Thes5:11.

it's all the same day...THAT DAY.

Could it be that the term "first resurrection" is a reference to the first resurrection of the ones who refused the mark, and died during the 7 years.?

it refers to all faithful to God, all martyrs, all faithful, through all time.

If what you say is right, there had to be living believers on earth at this "post trib" event, but absolutely nothing is said about them .

they are the ones that went through the trib and did not take his mark or worship him, mentioned right there in Rev20:4
(144000 of Rev7/14 represent those people)

in Rev18, Babylon falls and God says plagues are coming.
God says come out of Babylon before the plagues.
in Rev19, God declares that the bride is ready (they've come out of Babylon)
so Christ leaves heaven with the armies of Heaven (the robe wearing dead in Christ)
and comes to earth to fight the beast, which is the supper of God (wedding feast)
obv. not literal as you can tell by the menu.

Rev20 shows that there are 2 Resurrections.
all good guys are in the first one.
that includes any one that went through the trib and overcame.

since they are included in that 1st Resurrection, and they go through the trib,
then that 1st resurrection cannot be pre trib.

it's easy math

 

[zeke37]

Well, I guess that leaves me out.

maybe for that part, but you can still see that the pre trib is disproven by the same logic...
even from an amill's point of view.

 

[LastSeven]

Yes. Trib overcomers take part in the first resurrection, which means the first resurrection can not happen prior to the tribulation spoken of in Revelation 7:14. That is logical and undeniable.

I don't however believe that the tribulation is a period of only a few years as what Jesus and Daniel both spoke of (In my opinion they were speaking of 70A.D.), but the "great tribulation" as mentioned in Revelation 7:14 is speaking of something else entirely.

I answered, “Sir, you know.”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This "great tribulation" is great in time, not intensity and it is therefore not limited to a few years but rather envelops the entire history of mankind, post sin.

Notice that the verse makes a connection between escaping the tribulation and being washed by the blood of the lamb. Being washed by the blood of the lamb means escaping from sin. I believe that the reference to tribulation in Revelation 7:14 is a reference to the sin of this world, which means everybody who has ever lived has lived during the "great tribulation" (remember, this is different from what Jesus and Daniel both spoke of) and only by the blood of the lamb can you escape the sin/tribulation.

Therefore, anyone and everyone who accepts Jesus comes out of the great tribulation, is washed clean by the blood of the lamb, and takes part in the first resurrection by being born again.

 

[AlfredKeith]

zeke37,

You already know that I am a Post-Tribber, and that I make arguments against the Pre-Trib view, but:

In your post you quote Rev 20:4-6. This "first resurrection" occurs after Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21) and after Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-3). The "normal" Post-Trib view is that the Rapture/Resurrection occurs before these events. Also, the only people that are explicitly resurrected in these verses are those martyred by the Antichrist during the Tribulation.

The Pre-Trib view is that the "first resurrection" is first in type and occurs in multiple phases: some are resurrected before the Tribulation, and some are resurrected after.

It takes a lot more that just Rev 20:4-6 to prove a Post-Trib doctrine. By the way: do you believe that the Rapture/Resurrection occurs before or after Armageddon?

 

[Choose Wisely]

i think choose wisely's post goes to show how deceptive the pre trib belief is

sorry cw, i provided scripture which supports what i said, in a very plain and easy to understand way

the first Resurrection cannot be pre trib, because the trib overcomers are included in it....

and the rapture is after the Resurrection of the just

so ya, try to be honest.
if you can't answer the scriptures presented in a pre trib manner, then there ya go.

I answered and yet you cannot see. There are two raptures. The church is long gone and the only proof you have that they are still here is two candlesticks that are identified as two witnesses that are killed and left in the street for days. Do you think that the church is all killed and left in the streets for days?

Your proofs have so many holes that the Swiss are excited.

In an hour in which you think not the son of man cometh. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

 

[zeke37]

zeke37,

You already know that I am a Post-Tribber, and that I make arguments against the Pre-Trib view, but:

In your post you quote Rev 20:4-6. This "first resurrection" occurs after Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21) and after Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-3). The "normal" Post-Trib view is that the Rapture/Resurrection occurs before these events.

Zec14 's plagues imo line up with Rev19's supper.
it's rather irrelevant imo if it's immediately after or immediately before...
I consider that "at" His Coming, and either way...post trib.

Also, the only people that are explicitly resurrected in these verses are those martyred by the Antichrist during the Tribulation.

I disagree.
Rev20:4 shows two separate groups of people.

-the beheaded martyrs of the past, like john the Baptist for example...
(representing in my opinion all the righteous "dead in Christ") Rev5.
and also...
-those of us who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord to be gathered to Him,
who don't take the mark in the trib (remain faithful to be wed) 144000.

The Pre-Trib view is that the "first resurrection" is first in type and occurs in multiple phases: some are resurrected before the Tribulation, and some are resurrected after.

never heard them say that, YET
but that doesn't surprise me, they multiply everything....
-last day (becomes last days),
-rapture (becomes raptures),
-He will Come again a Second time (becomes He will come again a second and third time)
-1st Resurrection too I guess....no surprise

It takes a lot more that just Rev 20:4-6 to prove a Post-Trib doctrine.

actually, I was attempting to disprove pre trib
but it certainly disproves mid trib too
if the ones that went through the trib are included, then that Resurrection is not pre trib.
and since the Resurrection of the just must happen first, before the rapture,
it's a no-brainer.

By the way: do you believe that the Rapture/Resurrection occurs before or after Armageddon?

I don't think it really matters. I go with AT

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/