Another take on the Rapture

[Copperhead]

And look at the passage in Zechariah that “whom they pierced” is taken from. The preceding verse is in the context of the end days.

 

[BABerean2]

And look at the passage in Zechariah that “whom they pierced” is taken from. The preceding verse is in the context of the end days.

Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

Do you think John was confused?

.

 

[keras]

None of that fits the believers now in any way. It is a non sequitur to equate the church as having replaced Israel, when it requires Israel to acknowledge their offense and call for Yeshua's return before He will return. There has to be a literal, physical Israel for that to happen.

Where you go wrong, is thinking that the visible entity, namely the Jewish people, are the only physical descendants of Jacob.
The fact is that the Jews have no proof of their ancestry and the historical record actually shows that most of those who call themselves Jews today, are not truly Jewish at all.

Then what you ignore, is the ten Northern tribes; the actual House of Israel. They were sent into exile 2700 years ago, but that punishment for their sins was to be for a decreed period only. Ezekiel 4:4-6 Also for the House of Judah and we see their return now.
God only knows who and where they all are today. Amos 9:9

Jesus said that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. If He was referring to the Jews only, then His mission has failed. Not so; Christianity has gone worldwide, among those people whom God scattered among the nations and are now as many as the sands of the sea, the Lord's true faithful people, the Israelites of God.
The Church of Jesus Christ is now all the Jews who remained on the Tree, as Christians; like Paul and the 3000, plus the vast multitude of people from every race, nation and language, all bought will the Blood of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

All soon to go into their heritage, all of the holy Land,

 

[jgr]

Some think that the OT is just one big covenant. It is a collection of different covenants that enhance one another. The New Covenant just enhances and clarifies what came before it. The Abrahamic Covenant is one. It is a land promise. The Davidic Covenant is another, that a descendent of David would rule over the nation, and the entire earth, from Jerusalem on the restored throne (authority) of David.

My Bible contains an Old Testament and a New Testament, two Testaments in total. So does yours. All of the covenants of the Old Testament are contained in their entirety within the Old Testament portion of the Scriptural canon.

The New Testament also contains multiple covenants in their entirety within its portion of the Scriptural canon. The Testator, i.e. Testament writer, of the New Testament, is Jesus Christ. He wrote it in His Own Blood (Matthew 26:28).

In the temporal affairs of humankind, what happens to the testament which a testator has written, when that testator dies?

Hint: Look at the very beginning of your own (Will and) Testament for the clause beginning "I hereby...".

 

[Choose Wisely]

And where do you see the claim that "Jesus is not God"?

So you're saying the scriptures are incorrect? How do you explain this?
2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Copperhead]

Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

Do you think John was confused?

.

Nope. There are many instances where prophetic statements in the OT have multiple applications. Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction. But the context of the passage is the major focus of the prophecy.

 

[jgr]

So you're saying the scriptures are incorrect? How do you explain this?
2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sorry, but I'm not understanding. You claim that I claim that Jesus is not God. Where do I claim that?

 

[jgr]

I find it all rather schizophrenic. The group that wants to negate the Jews and Israel will claim that no one can claim to be Jewish today because the DNA is scattered all around and no one can know who is a real physical Jew.

The group making that claim is the Jewish community itself.

You refuse to believe what the Jewish community itself claims about itself, despite those claims being scientifically confirmable both genetically and mathematically.

You refuse to believe the community which is the foundation cornerstone upon which your doctrinal edifice rests.

Why is that?


Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[Copperhead]

The group making that claim is the Jewish community itself.

You refuse to believe what the Jewish community itself claims about itself, despite those claims being scientifically confirmable both genetically and mathematically.

You refuse to believe the community which is the foundation cornerstone upon which your doctrinal edifice rests.

Why is that?


Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

No, a fraction of the Jewish community is making that claim. One has to take into account that the majority of Hebrew people are not observant of the scriptures, Judaism, and whatever. There are even some Jews who say that the state of Israel is not valid. That doesn't make it so because a few renegades decided to say that. Even back in the Babylonian Exile, the majority of Hebrews would not return to the Land when given the chance. Moses said the Hebrew people were a stiff necked, obstinate people. That is not an anti-Semitic statement... Moses said it himself.

Again, if DNA were the issue, then Yeshua is not the Messiah. In His lineage there was mess of half breed and minimal Hebrew people. Obed was 1/4 Hebrew at the very most, but was the grandfather of David. So then, was David the King an imposter?

The DNA argument is a subterfuge.

 

[Douggg]

Where you go wrong, is thinking that the visible entity, namely the Jewish people, are the only physical descendants of Jacob.
The fact is that the Jews have no proof of their ancestry and the historical record actually shows that most of those who call themselves Jews today, are not truly Jewish at all.

Then what you ignore, is the ten Northern tribes; the actual House of Israel. They were sent into exile 2700 years ago, but that punishment for their sins was to be for a decreed period only. Ezekiel 4:4-6 Also for the House of Judah and we see their return now.
God only knows who and where they all are today. Amos 9:9

Jesus said that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. If He was referring to the Jews only, then His mission has failed. Not so; Christianity has gone worldwide, among those people whom God scattered among the nations and are now as many as the sands of the sea, the Lord's true faithful people, the Israelites of God.
The Church of Jesus Christ is now all the Jews who remained on the Tree, as Christians; like Paul and the 3000, plus the vast multitude of people from every race, nation and language, all bought will the Blood of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

All soon to go into their heritage, all of the holy Land,

Fact is Israel became a nation again in one day fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews.

The main participants in Gog/Magog are Turkey, Russian, Iran active in the middle east on Israel's doorstep.

The President of the United States is going before the U.N around the feast of Tabernacles to present his peace proposal.

At the same time the world is on the brink of a financial meltdown - which will likely lead to the reformation of the EU, plus brexit is back in the forefront. There is so much politically and economically going on in the world right now, it is hard to say what's coming next.

In the middle of all this - some of the participants of this board prefer to argue that the church is Israel or those in Israel are not the real jews.

 

[jgr]

No, a fraction of the Jewish community is making that claim. One has to take into account that the majority of Hebrew people are not observant of the scriptures, Judaism, and whatever. There are even some Jews who say that the state of Israel is not valid. That doesn't make it so because a few renegades decided to say that. Even back in the Babylonian Exile, the majority of Hebrews would not return to the Land when given the chance. Moses said the Hebrew people were a stiff necked, obstinate people. That is not an anti-Semitic statement... Moses said it himself.

Again, if DNA were the issue, then Yeshua is not the Messiah. In His lineage there was mess of half breed and minimal Hebrew people. Obed was 1/4 Hebrew at the very most, but was the grandfather of David. So then, was David the King an imposter?

The DNA argument is a subterfuge.

Thank you; you have just confirmed my argument and evidence.

DNA is indeed not the issue, because something of which everyone is in possession ceases to retain significance as a criterion of identification or selection.

So that leaves the criteria established since the dawn of covenant history.

Faith and obedience.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Sorry, but I'm not understanding. You claim that I claim that Jesus is not God. Where do I claim that?

See post #60

 

[jgr]

See post #60

Nothing there remotely resembling your claim.

Quote it directly.

 

[BABerean2]

There are even some Jews who say that the state of Israel is not valid. That doesn't make it so because a few renegades decided to say that.

Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

See 1 Peter 2:4-10.

.

 

[keras]

Fact is Israel became a nation again in one day fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

The true fact is: It took 50 years from the inception of the Jewish State of Israel

to its proclamation. In no way does Isaiah 66:7-13 fit with the Israel today.
That prophecy awaits future fulfilment, with all the real Israelites of God, His faithful people.

In the middle of all this - some of the participants of this board prefer to argue that the church is Israel or those in Israel are not the real jews.

That is because the true ekkelasia, the Lord's born again people, comprise of His Overcomers, the Victorious ones for God; His Israelites of God.
Those who call themselves Jews, can become real Israelites by circumcision of their hearts. Romans 2:29

Please take more care of what you post, Douggg. You make flat statements, without any proof, people see this and it detracts from your reputation.
​

 

[Douggg]

The true fact is: It took 50 years from the inception of the Jewish State of Israel

to its proclamation. In no way does Isaiah 66:7-13 fit with the Israel today.
That prophecy awaits future fulfilment, with all the real Israelites of God, His faithful people. ​

The President of the United States and the rest of the world seems to recognize that Israel became a nation again in 1948. Keras, we are long, long, past that milestone. And Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews and the capital of Israel.

The President of the United States is going before the U.N. to present his peace plan scheduled with the feast of tabernacles.

 

[jgr]

No, a fraction of the Jewish community is making that claim.

You've apparently read little or none of the linked material.

Take it to your nearest friendly rabbi, and tell him it's a "subterfuge".

See if he agrees.

Take the mathematical evidence to a mathematician, and tell him it's a "subterfuge".

See if he agrees.

 

[Copperhead]

Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

See 1 Peter 2:4-10.

.

Indeed! the Kingdom of God was taken away from the religious leadership of Israel. But that doesn't mean that Israel was taken from Israel. The Hebrew people will be restored to the land in full in accordance to the Abrahamic Covenant, which was an unconditional covenant sworn to by God alone with a blood oath. The descendants of Abraham couldn't abrogate that covenant if they wanted to.

Folks confuse the physical promises with the spiritual ones. Physical, corporate Israel will need to be in place, with a leadership that will one day recognize their offense of rejecting Yeshua and call for His return. That is scripture. Yeshua stated it in Hosea and affirmed it in Matthew.

Now, folks can dismiss the idea of any true physical Jews or some other nonsense. but if there is no real Jews to acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua as a corporate body, then there will be no return of Yeshua to this planet and we all might as well give up and go about our merry way. Yeshua said specifically He would return to His place.... UNTIL.... they acknowledge their offense. And in their affliction (time of Jacob's Trouble) they would earnestly call out to Him.

That also abrogates any goofy ideas that the Church is now physical Israel. When did the Church reject Yeshua and cause Him to return to His place? And when does the Church need to acknowledge that offense and return to Yeshua? That makes no sense. There are two entities in play.... the Ekklesia and literal, physical Israel.

And if God is thru with physical, literal, corporate Jacob (Judah and Israel), then Satan didn't get the memo.

 

[jgr]

Fact is Israel became a nation again in one day fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Israel was a product of years of political intrigue, duplicity, and deception; coupled with savage guerrilla terrorism and warfare. It could not be more disqualified as prophetic fulfillment.

The Church was born on and in one day -- the Day of Pentecost. It was the precise and perfect fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Don't shoot me, I am only the messenger. I came across this video yesterday and it has a interesting twist on the Rapture. Even if one doesn't agree, it is a very interesting video nonetheless.

Oh, its Scott Clarke with another false interpretation. Why do we need to listen to man who has sworn about the September 21 2017 rapture?