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Featured Another take on the Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Copperhead, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    A VERY interesting and informative scripture, jgr.
    Here it is in a modern translation:
    Isaiah 65:11-15 But those who forsake the Lord, all who look to the gods of fate and destiny, I shall put you to the Sword and you will all submit to the slaughter, for when I called you did not respond and when I spoke, you did not listen. You did what was wrong in My sight and chose what displeased Me.
    Therefore the Lord says: My servants will eat and drink, while you go hungry, My servants will rejoice, while you are put to shame.....
    Your name will be used as a curse by My chosen ones and the Lord will slay you, but His servants, He will call by another name
    .

    This prophecy is about Israel, specifically the Jewish people; how the Lord has appealed to them for a long time, but they still rebel and continue on in their evil ways. Isaiah 65:2-3
    Now their fate is death. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 2:4-5, Luke 19:27

    THEN - Isaiah 65:8-10 says; there will be a remnant from Jacob, along with His chosen ones, who will possess the holy Land. Those who serve Him will live there. The Land and livestock will belong to My people, those who seek Me.
    R.E.Bible, some verses abridged.

    This scripture plainly states that the Lord's people, His chosen ones, are a remnant of Jacob, joined to a majority of faithful Christians, all who seek and serve Him.
    This truth blows away any crazy 'rapture to heaven' nonsense, as our Christian destiny is the be the people God always wanted in His Land and we are there when the 'beast', the Anti-Christ conquers us. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7.
    This will be the final test of faith for us and some will be taken to safety, the rest face further testing. Revelation 12:17.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What amazes me is why anyone thinks its important to be a Jew.
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree. But many believe that they're God's Chosen People.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Funny that; because Jesus doesn't: Matthew 21:43, Revelation 2:9 and Paul in Romans 2:17-19, 1 Thessalonians 2:16-19, +
    The Jewish people have the same chance as anybody else to get right with God. It they still refuse, then they are no better than the rest of the heathen peoples.
    GOD HAS NO FAVORITES!!!!!
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Bible mainly uses the father, instead of the mother, in the genealogy below.

    You are following the erroneous teachings of modern Orthodox Judaism, which are based upon the teachings of the rabbis who lived after 70 AD, instead of the Bible.



    Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
    Mat 1:2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.
    Mat 1:3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram.
    Mat 1:4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon.
    Mat 1:5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse,
    Mat 1:6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah.
    Mat 1:7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa.
    Mat 1:8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah.
    Mat 1:9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah.
    Mat 1:10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah.
    Mat 1:11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
    Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel.
    Mat 1:13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor.
    Mat 1:14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud.
    Mat 1:15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob.
    Mat 1:16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
    Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.
    Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
    Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
    Mat 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
    Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."
    Mat 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
    Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."
    Mat 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
    Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

    .
     
  6. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

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    So now you claim Jesus is not God. This scriptures prove different.

    John 8
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    John 10
    30 I and my Father are one.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    How is Jesus - a Jew? It is because by blood his mother is a Jew.

    You should go back read how the Jews sent away their foreign wives and the children they had by them following the Babylonian captivity. Ezra 10.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Ruth was a Moabite.

    Boaz, the husband of Ruth is the son of Rahab, the harlot.

    Based on what you are saying, those descended from Ruth would not be a Jew.

    King David is descended from Ruth, and so is Christ.


    .
     
  9. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    The same way many of the Prophets do. Both Israel and Judah. Yeshua, speaking in Hosea, said both Ephraim and Judah, which represents both houses. Jeremiah uses both houses extensively. It is not those who are grafted in per Paul. That is spiritual Israel of Abraham. And Paul warns the grafted in branches to not get all puffed up regarding the real branches that have been cut out. They will again be grafted back into their own tree.

    I find it all rather schizophrenic. The group that wants to negate the Jews and Israel will claim that no one can claim to be Jewish today because the DNA is scattered all around and no one can know who is a real physical Jew.

    Then they want to claim they are Jews because they have been grafted into the tree by Yeshua. So therefore, they claim to know Yeshua, but they also suggest by the position they hold and by implication, that Yeshua had no idea what He was talking about then regarding the 12,000 from 12 tribes in Revelation. After all, there are no real literal, physical, genetic Hebrews left... it is all one big conglomeration of DNA. Even though Obed of Ruth and Boaz was only 1/4 Hebrew and in the lineage of David and Yeshua. Still, Obed was considered Hebrew.

    Then they want to claim they are the true Jews and there are no more Jews, even though Hosea says that both Judah and Ephraim (both houses, i.e. all the tribes) must acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for Him to return, and that has to be done before He will return. Well, if the Church is now the true Israel, then when did the Church reject Yeshua before He returned to the Father as per Hosea? And, if there are no real Jews running around, I guess that Yeshua will not ever be coming back, so why are we wasting all this time? He said specifically in Hosea 5:15 and affirmed in Matthew 23:39 that it is the condition, that He would not return until they acknowledged their offense and called for His return.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What did Paul say below about who are the children of God, and Abraham's seed?

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

    Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.


    Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
    Christ is the seed of the woman first promised in Genesis 3:15.



    What did Paul say below about using genealogies in our faith?

    1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

    Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

    Some man-made doctrines survive by ignoring the words of Paul, found above.

     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus's mother was Mary.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And where do you see the claim that "Jesus is not God"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you saying Mary was not a descendant of Rahab and Ruth?

    .
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And they forget they are grafted into the tree, they don't replace the tree. And they forget the branches who were cut out so that they could be grafted in will be restored to the tree in the future.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 11:23
    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    Contingent on faith and obedience.

    As always.
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    It all comes back to the tree Paul spoke of. We are indeed grafted into the tree which is fed by the root of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but we don't replace the tree. We are wild olive branches that have been grafted in and partake of the sap, so to speak, that comes from the root.

    Likewise, Paul also states we should not be arrogant that we have been grafted into the tree, because the natural olive branches that were cut out for us to be grafted in will one day be restored. The major focus of all the prophets is the restoration of literal, corporate Israel as promised to the fathers. And those that have been grafted in will reap the benefits of that restoration.

    Some think that the OT is just one big covenant. It is a collection of different covenants that enhance one another. The New Covenant just enhances and clarifies what came before it. The Abrahamic Covenant is one. It is a land promise. The Davidic Covenant is another, that a descendent of David would rule over the nation, and the entire earth, from Jerusalem on the restored throne (authority) of David.

    Gentiles being brought into the fold was always predicted in the OT. But nowhere in the OT does it imply or state that bringing them in negates the various covenants. A Jew from the lineage of David is going to rule in the authority of David and the center of that kingdom will be Jerusalem which is in the land that YHVH made an unconditional covenant to Abraham that his descendants would live.

    It is prophesied that eventually all of the descendent of Abraham will be saved. And that cannot mean the entire earth simply because when Yeshua takes over, the nations are brought before Him and they are judged in how they treated His brethren (He is a Jew, Israelite, Hebrew) as to whether they will physically go into the kingdom to repopulate the earth. Those that have already accepted Yeshua up to that point are not part of that judgement since they have already been redeemed. These sheep and goats are not redeemed, they just survived the GT period.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you claiming that all of the Israelite branches were broken off of the Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11?

    Was Paul broken off of the tree in Romans 11:1?

    Was there a faithful "remnant" of Israelite branches during Paul's time, in Romans 11:5?


    .
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Yes indeed, contingent on faith. And corporate Israel will acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua and be restored as per Hosea 5:14 - 6:2. And they have to acknowledge that offense and return to Him and call out for His return BEFORE He will. The Church did not reject Yeshua, physical, corporate, national Israel did. And it will be corporate, physical, national Israel that has to acknowledge that offense and cry unto Him to return. And when He does, they will mourn for Him whom thy pierced.

    None of that fits the believers now in any way. It is a non sequitur to equate the church as having replaced Israel, when it requires Israel to acknowledge their offense and call for Yeshua's return before He will return. There has to be a literal, physical Israel for that to happen.

    Isaiah 45:17 (NKJV) But Israel shall be saved by the Lord
    With an everlasting salvation;
    You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
    Forever and ever.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NKJV) “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
    “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
    A King shall reign and prosper,
    And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
    6 In His days Judah will be saved,
    And Israel will dwell safely;
    Now this is His name by which He will be called:
    THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
    So that none is like it;
    And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
    But he shall be saved out of it.


    Jeremiah 31:1 (NKJV) “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”

    Romans 11:26-27 (NKJV) And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27 For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”
     
  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Oh come on, quit playing like you are totally in the dark here and just wanting to play contentious games. Of course not all the branches were cut out of the tree. Until Acts 10, the entire church was made up of nothing but Israelites (both Judah and Israel for those that like to get stuck on the two houses game).

    Since that is the case, answer your own questions and quit being ridiculous.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
    Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
    Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
    Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

    John quoted part of that Old Testament text as being fulfilled at Calvary.

    The rest of it was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out, and about 3,000 of "all the house of Israel" repented for killing their Messiah.

    Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
    Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
    Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


    .

     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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