Another take on the Rapture

[Choose Wisely]

Do you think Paul changed his mind between Romans 9 and Romans 11?

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Do you think Paul was broken off of the Olive tree in Romans 11:1?

Why are you ignoring the "remnant" in Romans 11:5?

The word "so" in Romans 11:26 is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing.

Is the "covenant" in Romans 11:27 a future covenant with the modern State of Israel or is it the covenant fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary, which is found in Hebrews 12:22-24?

In the passage below we find that the "times of the Gentiles" ends at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

You ignore the fact that Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.
You appear to be pretending that all of the Israelite branches were broken off by ignoring Romans 11:1.
Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ.
Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church in the passage.

Luke's Gospel kills your future time of restoration for the modern State of Israel after "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled.
You must ignore Luke 21:24-28, and Romans 9:6-8, and many other passages to make your doctrine work.

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It's obvious that God did not change his mind when he said that he would restore the nation of Israel, because in case you haven't noticed there is a thriving country over there. He also did not change his mind about Jerusalem. And He will not change His mind about that coming third Temple.

The promises given to Israel are for Israel.........not the Church. Nothing you can do, say or twist is going to change that.

Don't you get tired of rehashing the same tired drivel. I guess that's where cut and paste comes in.

If I asked you a question about football, would you respond with....until you understand the new covenant..............

 

[BABerean2]

It's obvious that God did not change his mind when he said that he would restore the nation of Israel, because in case you haven't noticed there is a thriving country over there. He also did not change his mind about Jerusalem. And He will not change His mind about that coming third Temple.

The promises given to Israel are for Israel.........not the Church. Nothing you can do, say or twist is going to change that.

Don't you get tired of rehashing the same tired drivel. I guess that's where cut and paste comes in.

If I asked you a question about football, would you respond with....until you understand the new covenant..............

What if at the beginning of the service at your church a man stands up and says the following...

"Because of who my parents are I do not need Jesus as my Messiah, because I am under a different covenant with God. I am one of God's chosen people."

Will your preacher say that he is correct, and ask him to speak to the church about what is going on in the modern State of Israel?


1 John 2:22-23

2 John 1:7-11
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[Choose Wisely]

Nowhere does the Bible say all the Jews will be re-grafted back into the olive Tree. Romans 11:24b says they can be NOT that they will be.

Have I said that all Jews will be regrafted? Normally this scripture would prove annoying. However after reading all the "in heaven" scriptures that were posted the other day and you still claiming that it was not going to happen........I'm not sure posting scripture has any effect.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Those few Jews who have accepted Jesus now, are back by their faith. The rest, as is plainly prophesied will die. Zechariah 13:7-9

Zechariah 13:7-9 is talking about those that are left in the land of Israel.........that go through the wrath of God. They are the remnant. The third part that are saved are the ones that are told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation set up in the Holy place. This of course has nothing to do with the 12 tribes that are scattered throughout the world that go through the tribulation. They will be killed or raptured before the wrath of God begins.

Zec 13
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Your belief of a general Jewish redemption, is false.

Don't talk to me about it, tell God. Because He says that there will be a 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. And we know that when the first fruits are presented, that guarantees a harvest. Since the first fruits of this harvest are from the 12 tribes we know that the harvest will be the 12 tribes. I'm going to have to go with what God claims in His word and pass on what you think will happen.

God will not redeem anyone who fails to accept Jesus now.

What if they accept Jesus tomorrow.........will you let them be saved.

 

[Choose Wisely]

What if at the beginning of the service at your church a man stands up and says the following...

"Because of who my parents are I do not need Jesus as my Messiah, because I am under a different covenant with God. I am one of God's chosen people."

Will your preacher say that he is correct, and ask him to speak to the church about what is going on in the modern State of Israel?


1 John 2:22-23

2 John 1:7-11
.

What if God said in his word that He was going to scatter His people across the earth. What if He said that He was going to restore the nation of Israel. Would you believe Him or claim that the Church became Israel.

As to your question, I have never asked that question to anyone so I have no idea about anyones response. But what I can tell you is...........once one comes to understand the new covenant...........

And by the way, how many times do I have to tell you .......Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[keras]

Have I said that all Jews will be regrafted? Normally this scripture would prove annoying. However after reading all the "in heaven" scriptures that were posted the other day and you still claiming that it was not going to happen........I'm not sure posting scripture has any effect.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

'in heaven' scriptures?
I repeat: NONE of them even mention heaven as the destination. You and all who have been fooled by false teaching, just assume that.

'so all Israel will be saved'.....
Thinking that this statement means just those who call themselves Israelis, cannot be right. As we agree; per Zechariah 13:7-9.
But study of the context proves that it is the Israelites of God; His faithful people, Jew and Gentile, who Paul refers to.
God does not save those who reject Him and His Son.

 

[BABerean2]

Would you believe Him or claim that the Church became Israel.

You have it backwards, based on what is found in the scripture below...

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?
Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


You do not know the difference between the Baal worshipers and the faithful remnant in Romans 11:1-5.

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[Choose Wisely]

You have it backwards, based on what is found in the scripture below...

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You have it backwards based on what is found in scripture in above posts.

 

[jgr]

What if God said in his word that He was going to scatter His people across the earth. What if He said that He was going to restore the nation of Israel.

Who are His people?

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Who are His people which he foreknew?

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

They are the elect.

Who are the elect?

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

They are the remnant who are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

They are God's elect remnant people whom He foreknew and has not cast away.
But they are not the whole nation.
Hence the reason for Paul's sorrow (Romans 9:2).

 

[keras]

They are God's elect remnant people whom He foreknew and has not cast away.
But they are not the whole nation.
Hence the reason for Paul's sorrow

And since all except that believing, elect remnant of the Jews will be cast away, the Gentiles who believe are grafted into the Tree of life, thereby making the whole people of God in the world today.
They remain scattered around the world, but not for much longer, as Revelation 7 shows them as a vast multitude gathered in the holy Land.

 

[jgr]

And since all except that believing, elect remnant of the Jews will be cast away, the Gentiles who believe are grafted into the Tree of life, thereby making the whole people of God in the world today.
They remain scattered around the world, but not for much longer, as Revelation 7 shows them as a vast multitude gathered in the holy Land.

Yes, God's People are found within every human habitation on earth.

And Christ has prepared a place for us, not on this sin-defiled earth, but in the mansions in His Father's house where He dwells, and where He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:2,3); and where we will serve Him eternally in His Holy Temple. (Revelation 7:15).

 

[Choose Wisely]

IT'S EASY ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT THE BOOKS OF REVELATION ARE NOT IN ORDER.

This I want to see! Please don't disappoint!

It you are really interested in how easy it is to prove that Revelation is not in order, I will be happy to do so. However, you seem to have disappeared after I proved without a shadow of doubt that the Abomination of Desolation is NOT IN THE MIDPOINT OF THE WEEK like you claimed. Which means that your complete timeline is wrong and will not hold up to what scripture says. Any comments on that?

 

[keras]

Yes, God's People are found within every human habitation on earth.

And Christ has prepared a place for us, not on this sin-defiled earth, but in the mansions in His Father's house where He dwells, and where He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:2,3); and where we will serve Him eternally in His Holy Temple. (Revelation 7:15).

Wrong. God's elect never go to heaven, eventually God and heaven come down to us. Revelation 21:1-7
THAT is what John 14:1-3 and Revelation 7:15-17 is telling us.
Proved by Revelation 7:17....God will wipe away every tear.... Repeated in Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear and there will be an end to Death....

Both of your so called 'rapture to heaven' verses happen at the end of the Millennium.
This is irrefutable and you, plus millions of other deceived Christians need to correct your beliefs, before its too late and you will be caught unawares, with events you were not prepared for.

 

[iamlamad]

It's obvious that God did not change his mind when he said that he would restore the nation of Israel, because in case you haven't noticed there is a thriving country over there. He also did not change his mind about Jerusalem. And He will not change His mind about that coming third Temple.

The promises given to Israel are for Israel.........not the Church. Nothing you can do, say or twist is going to change that.

Don't you get tired of rehashing the same tired drivel. I guess that's where cut and paste comes in.

If I asked you a question about football, would you respond with....until you understand the new covenant..............

Finally, a breath of fresh air - TRUTH! hallelujah!

 

[iamlamad]

Wrong. God's elect never go to heaven, eventually God and heaven come down to us. Revelation 21:1-7
THAT is what John 14:1-3 and Revelation 7:15-17 is telling us.
Proved by Revelation 7:17....God will wipe away every tear.... Repeated in Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear and there will be an end to Death....

Both of your so called 'rapture to heaven' verses happen at the end of the Millennium.
This is irrefutable and you, plus millions of other deceived Christians need to correct your beliefs, before its too late and you will be caught unawares, is events you were not prepared for.

You can remain on earth if you wish, but you are going to be very disappointed when you see the church leaving (if it is a visible departure).

 

[iamlamad]

IT'S EASY ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT THE BOOKS OF REVELATION ARE NOT IN ORDER.



It you are really interested in how easy it is to prove that Revelation is not in order, I will be happy to do so. However, you seem to have disappeared after I proved without a shadow of doubt that the Abomination of Desolation is NOT IN THE MIDPOINT OF THE WEEK like you claimed. Which means that your complete timeline is wrong and will not hold up to what scripture says. Any comments on that?

Let's see your proof of this first. then we can get into thread history.

 

[iamlamad]

And since all except that believing, elect remnant of the Jews will be cast away, the Gentiles who believe are grafted into the Tree of life, thereby making the whole people of God in the world today.
They remain scattered around the world, but not for much longer, as Revelation 7 shows them as a vast multitude gathered in the holy Land.

Sorry, but Rev. 7 shows them around the throne in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

Who are His people?

Romans 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Who are His people which he foreknew?

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

They are the elect.

Who are the elect?

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

They are the remnant who are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

They are God's elect remnant people whom He foreknew and has not cast away.
But they are not the whole nation.
Hence the reason for Paul's sorrow (Romans 9:2).

There is another "elect:"

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

 

[iamlamad]

'in heaven' scriptures?
I repeat: NONE of them even mention heaven as the destination. You and all who have been fooled by false teaching, just assume that.

'so all Israel will be saved'.....
Thinking that this statement means just those who call themselves Israelis, cannot be right. As we agree; per Zechariah 13:7-9.
But study of the context proves that it is the Israelites of God; His faithful people, Jew and Gentile, who Paul refers to.
God does not save those who reject Him and His Son.

I would rather think, with all those "heaven" scriptures, that you have it wrong. However, I am quite sure that in your mind that is impossible.

 

[iamlamad]

Have I said that all Jews will be regrafted? Normally this scripture would prove annoying. However after reading all the "in heaven" scriptures that were posted the other day and you still claiming that it was not going to happen........I'm not sure posting scripture has any effect.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



Zechariah 13:7-9 is talking about those that are left in the land of Israel.........that go through the wrath of God. They are the remnant. The third part that are saved are the ones that are told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation set up in the Holy place. This of course has nothing to do with the 12 tribes that are scattered throughout the world that go through the tribulation. They will be killed or raptured before the wrath of God begins.

Zec 13
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


Don't talk to me about it, tell God. Because He says that there will be a 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. And we know that when the first fruits are presented, that guarantees a harvest. Since the first fruits of this harvest are from the 12 tribes we know that the harvest will be the 12 tribes. I'm going to have to go with what God claims in His word and pass on what you think will happen.

What if they accept Jesus tomorrow.........will you let them be saved.

Now THAT Is a good question! I hope to see his answer!

 

[jgr]

There is another "elect:"

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

How is that elect different from God's elect remnant (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27) people whom He foreknew?