Another major prosperity church in trouble

[Biblicist]

[FONT=&quot]Charisma magazine[/FONT] link

For the second time in a week I went and checked the Charisma magazine site where I found that another prosperity gospel church had gone astray with a number of its senior leaders including the founding pastor being charged with embezzlement. The first was with Creflo Dollar being charged with attempting to strangle his daughter and now another disaster where this Singapore based church has its leadership facing charges of embezzlement of somewhere around 50 million dollars.

Even though prosperity ‘gospel’ congregations seem to be prone to charges of financial irregularity I am now coming to the opinion that maybe its time for us to consider limiting our church sizes – even though I have no idea if such a concept could even work.

[FONT=&quot]The rise of mega-churches[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]INSIGHT: DOWN SOUTH
By SEAH CHIANG NEE
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]cnseah05@hotmail.com[/FONT]

There are several mega-churches in Singapore with evangelical fund-raising zeal, posing potential problems for this multi-religious country.

THE city is abuzz with anticipation over the coming trial of leaders of the largest and richest charismatic church on charges of misuse of charity funds.
It is the result of two years of the biggest investigation of a religious institution.
Five leaders of the City Harvest Church (CHC) – including co-founder pastor Kong Hee who preached a form of money-generating prosperity gospel – were charged with criminal breach of trust.
Singapore is often stereotyped as a society that only worships money.
“Now, some pastors are cashing in on it being true,” said a banker.
​

Wikipedia Link
“Success and freedom, according to Tong's study, are the two most outstanding values that are not merely "advocated to back up the church's agenda" but are "presented as virtues in themselves", often using quotations from Bible verses in the process. According to church doctrine, "God's abundant love" has both material and spiritual payoffs. "Conspicuous success", i.e. being prosperous, is presented as a desirable goal of the congregation. One informant who responded to Tong gave his explanation of church doctrine as follows:
God wants us all to be successful in all aspects of our lives ... I don't see [why] Christians should live a poor, pitiful, and suffered life ... it is not victory that is questionable, but failure ... success is good testimony. Of course people want to join successful people. Is it sensible to join a group of losers?”

 

[Faulty]

Kong Hee was at the Presence 2012 conference in America not but three months ago, along with Steven Furtick and Phil and Chris Pringle.

Kong was whe one who did the formal money-begging when the time came to collect the offerings. At that time, he droned on an on about his current legal issues and said the God told him that he had to suffer these things, being "innocent", in the same way Jesus had to suffer the night of His trials, because God wanted to use him like He did Jesus, and he would become "mighty" as a result.

I guess we'll see what comes of that exactly.

 

[lismore]

There is a global financial crisis. All churches whose focus is money will be facing hard times.

Expect more.

 

[Biblicist]

Kong Hee was at the Presence 2012 conference in America not but three months ago, along with Steven Furtick and Phil and Chris Pringle.

Sadly for me, Pringle is an Australian minister though he resides in Sydney so the fallout from this debacle hits a bit close to home for me. One of Pringles' offsiders has a C3 church only about 10Km from my home and I’ve been there a few times over the years but its main claim to fame seems to be with its ability to run conference both Christian and secular and they have rented out a large part of their operation to a business so that they can pay their bills.

C3 Melbourne supports the work of the NARzie Bill Johnson and overall it seems to suit the yuppies and with those who simply enjoy a good worldly lifestyle.

Even though it is never a joy to see any congregation go the way of Kong Hees’ congregation, as I’ve mentioned on another topic the greatest pain that this prosperity church has caused is with the incredible amount of damage that it has caused in a very sensitive region of the world, particularly as this relates to the strong Muslim influence in that area.

Even though the prosperity message has created havoc in its trail wherever it’s been, we should remind ourselves that it’s only a part of the problem as we should not forget about the resurging latter-rain movement and particularly with how the tentacles of the New Apostolic Reformation (NARzies) is spreading around the world.

The latter-rain movement which began in the 1948 was soon outlawed by the AoG USA but it seems to have played a major role in destabilising the then Full Gospel movement and by the time of the late 50’s and early 60’s the Pentecostal movement had become somewhat of a lame duck. When the Charismatic renewal arrived the Pentecostal movement was essentially of no help to these new Full Gospel believers so they had to spend a couple of decades developing a working Pneumatic theology – which has become the bench mark for quality Full Gospel theology.

The NARzies have become a major impediment to the credibility of the Full Gospel movement and without going into great detail we only have to look at the Bentley debacle with how the NARzie council stood next to Bentley declaring that he was the next greatest ministry in God – Bentley very quickly made these poor self-styled world leaders look ridiculous and sadly the likes of Wagner, Johnson and Joyner who have been trying to put on a brave face regarding their mate.

But to return to the topic, even though I would like to simply put the prosperity/wof movement down to being simply a US thing where they have been able to combine the worst of materialism and greed, it is sadly a global phenomenon as greed and materialism is at the very heart of human nature.

From the outside of the Full Gospel movement we also have Hybel’s seeker sensitive message which has seemingly been adopted by large sections of the Full Gospel movement; on top of this we also find such congregations adopting the health and wealth ethos and also NARzism. So if nothing else the problems that the Full Gospel movement is facing is hardly simple as we seem to be under attack from various different angles; and then of course there is the added complication of our own individual humanity which also brings into the Body of Christ its own set of problems.

Oh well, we’re off to here Steve Kelly from Wave Church Virginia who’s speaking at a church here in Melbourne.

 

[hopeinGod]

This news is not surprising to me. It is a very normal pattern for WOF/prosperity, error-ridden fellowships. I believe their false teachings are the most damaging elements within all of Christendom today, filled with more temptation than the world. The lies espoused are the devil's tool, created to cause both believers and leadership to put everything on hold, which is exactly where things are today.

Here's something relevant to this that I wrote on another thread:

A strong reaction against the disillussionment, extremism, burn out; narrow, doctrinal short-sightedness and the very public embarassment caused by the many fallen and sin-laden leaders within the Charismatic movements over the past three decades has placed countless churches on hold, or in a perpetual safety zone, established to block any attempts to restore that which propelled the falling away of so many burned out and naive believers who, for years, were beguiled by toxic extremism.

This is why churches and church leaders today are no longer pushing the experience of the Baptism of the H.G. They don't want a repeat of the past. Surely, they are doing this at the expense of revival, but that is secondary to their desire to maintain a peaceful order. It is better to rest in religiosity -- which provides only weekly doses of nonchallenging sermons for attendees, along with various good works teams to join -- than to push on into higher stages of spiritual development.

In places where I once fellowshipped, there is no longer a flow of the gifts as in the days of the Jesus Movement. Some have justified it as God's inner healing plan; others, feel it is a compromise of great proportions.

Another effort being made within many churches, similar to that which is taking place in the world, is an attempt to provide a tolerant settling for believers who disagree doctrinally. In order to keep such a spirit of peace, the laying aside of the most controversial doctrines and experiences has had to take place.

 

[Biblicist]

...This is why churches and church leaders today are no longer pushing the experience of the Baptism of the H.G. They don't want a repeat of the past. Surely, they are doing this at the expense of revival, but that is secondary to their desire to maintain a peaceful order. It is better to rest in religiosity -- which provides only weekly doses of nonchallenging sermons for attendees, along with various good works teams to join -- than to push on into higher stages of spiritual development...

Even though there are probably a number of reasons why the contemporary Full Gospel church seems to be so powerless, I am also of the strong opinion that there are many good and honest congregational leaders who have become reluctant to encourage the members of their churches to move out in the Spirit as a result of the seemingly daily disasters that are coming out of both the wof and prosperity movements. It would certainly be reasonable to say that this disillusionment not only exists within the leadership of our congregations but also with its rank-and-file members.

 

[lismore]

This is why churches and church leaders today are no longer pushing the experience of the Baptism of the H.G.

In my experience many Pentecostal leaders do not teach some of these doctrines because they have no idea about them!

How can someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit teach on the Holy Spirit himself?

In my time at AOG I was told (from the pulpit)

Jesus seems wimpy
The Holy Spirit is sensationalism
Jeremiah is negative
Creationism is for people with no brains
Allah is the same god as our God

The church has been infiltrated!

 

[TasManOfGod]

.

 

[Biblicist]

In my experience many Pentecostal leaders do not teach some of these doctrines because they have no idea about them!

How can someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit teach on the Holy Spirit himself?...

Over the years many of us have would have said that since the demise of the Charismatic renewal of the late 60’s through till maybe the beginning of the 80’s that very little has happened since this incredible period of time. Now we have individuals entering into the ministry who were not even born during this time so most of them probably have very little idea as to how vibrant the Christian walk can be.

As many of these people have had very little experience of the work of the Spirit, when they combine this with a poor understanding of what the Word of God has to say regarding both the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit we end up with what amounts to a mixed bag of liberalism and simply odd doctrines.

 

[lismore]

As many of these people have had very little experience of the work of the Spirit, when they combine this with a poor understanding of what the Word of God has to say regarding both the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit we end up with what amounts to a mixed bag of liberalism and simply odd doctrines.

Yes I believe what you are saying is largely true of Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. It's sad but true that the leaders don't seem to have the basics.

Most Spirit filled people I know do not attend Charismatic or Pentecostal denominations any more, they have taken refuge in Baptist or other churches, or just meet together in home groups or cafes.

The church is changing!

 

[Biblicist]

Most Spirit filled people I know do not attend Charismatic or Pentecostal denominations any more, they have taken refuge in Baptist or other churches, or just meet together in home groups or cafes.

This seems to have been a common trend here in Australia for the past two decades as well. The AOG even changed it's name to the ACC where it can be hard to identify any of their churches as being Pentecostal or for that matter even Evangelical.

 

[Evangelist Mel]

The prosperity gospel is polar opposite to the techings of Christ. You cannot serve God and mammon (money) for only one will be your master.

 

[hopeinGod]

The prosperity doctrine, which continues to be supported by those who fill their minds with that outrageous error, has saturated the Charismatic sect of the Church with so much useless religion and formulas that it is nearly impossible, in these days, to find a newbie willing to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. To make matters worse, offshoots of that kingdom have gone into prophetic side paths such as the Elijah list, contributing to even more instability.

While taking off on their own unguided extremes, proponents of these side roads have caused great ridicule and hilarity, and rightly so, if one were to judge the media that have come out of their services and websites as representing a true move of the Spirit.

The hurt that takes place within these groups steeped in error has forced the building of safe havens that promise an end to disappointment and disillusionment, which always arise out of misguided assertions and teachings.

The seriously bad side effects of holding on to WOF and other methodologies and frameworks for years, such as burnout and the lack of balance, is causing many Christians to set aside anything that remotely resembles their toxic pasts. For the most part, the testimonies of those that have come out from among them are not positive and contain a cry for morality and accountability, which such group leaders refuse.

Unfortunately, the churches that are constructed around these new safe havens, are, for the most part, mediocre in what they teach and permit. Why? Because those in charge are being paid to sift through extremism and toxicity to provide less doctrinal challenge and more social comfort. They therefore end up watering down the whole counsel of God as they refuse to permit anything to arise from among them that resembles the former days of Charismania. Unintentionally, they will discourage the movement of the Spirit, thinking, by doing so, it is keeping their flocks, and themselves, free from toxicity.

Sadly, as long as the WOF empire exists, and safe havens are the norm, the baptism of the H.G. will be held suspect.

 

[mrhappy3]

People are wising up. getting sick of it more like. Time these folks got a proper Job and earned a living for a change.

 

[ausgaz]

Mel has nailed it! Kong Hee serves mammon , not God. CHC Confessions Facebook page has a lot of good info on this cult....Yes! C-U-L-T. CHC is not a church, it is a cult, with it's own Gestapo like/mafia CGLs (cell Group Leaders).The Kong hee SS are the ones who control the drones who feed Kong's lifestyle eg. his $9,300,000 Sentosa penthouse. Unfortunately, because Kong Hee and Sun Ho (check her raunchy videos on You Tube), masquerade as pastors they have done huge damage to the cause of Christ. In fact, in history, no one has done as much damage to the cause of Christ, that has impacted so many people, as has Kong Hee.

 

[TehMill]

You'll never take these words out of the bible

Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together an running over shall men put into your bosom. For with the measure that you mete out will it be meted out withal.

It is outrageous for preachers to thump the bible about the DUTY of giving without telling them God's PROMISES concerning the same.

Oh that christians would catch on and stop murmuring. He became poor to make us rich, Paul became poor to make the Corinth church rich.

Poverty is a hangover Catholic doctrine...while they of course became rich. Poverty is today what it always has been, a curse...if you don't believe it go to India.

Isn't this what would have won India CENTURIES ago?

It simply is not greedy to look to God to supply all our needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus. I am not endorsing any preacher here...they must stand before the Lord.

But the doctrine is clear, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly.

 

[hopeinGod]

You'll never take these words out of the bible

Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together an running over shall men put into your bosom. For with the measure that you mete out will it be meted out withal.

It is outrageous for preachers to thump the bible about the DUTY of giving without telling them God's PROMISES concerning the same.

Oh that christians would catch on and stop murmuring. He became poor to make us rich, Paul became poor to make the Corinth church rich.

Poverty is a hangover Catholic doctrine...while they of course became rich. Poverty is today what it always has been, a curse...if you don't believe it go to India.

Isn't this what would have won India CENTURIES ago?

It simply is not greedy to look to God to supply all our needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus. I am not endorsing any preacher here...they must stand before the Lord.

But the doctrine is clear, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly.

Reap what? Money? Is that the motive for giving? If so, it's entirely unscriptural. I know plenty of Christians who tithe. They have for decades, and are still wrestling with a lack of funds.

We earn money by the sweat of our brows and by investing sensitbly in a solid financial plan. If you don't have one, I suggest you do so as the Word instrructs.

Jesus spoke in a parable about those who hid their God-given resources and refused to invest.

 

[TehMill]

Reap what? Money? Is that the motive for giving? If so, it's entirely unscriptural. I know plenty of Christians who tithe. They have for decades, and are still wrestling with a lack of funds.

We earn money by the sweat of our brows and by investing sensitbly in a solid financial plan. If you don't have one, I suggest you do so as the Word instrructs.

Jesus spoke in a parable about those who hid their God-given resources and refused to invest.

*
I give you the pure word of God spoken by the Lord Himself and Paul and you gave me this?

I know plenty christians who tithe and are never told to expect God's blessing on their giving. They are rather told they should give and expect no return.

By the sweat of thy brow is the curse, I have good news for you...we are redeemed from the curse. You go to Africa you will find plenty who sweat who live in grinding poverty. And I am a worker, I am not speaking against work or diligence in the same. But work as to the Lord our King and He will reward you in a kingly fashion. And it doesn't always involve money.

Investing in a solid financial plan huh? well that is exactly what Jesus told us not to...He said GIVE....a lot of christians don't like to give.

Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. That is the things the heathens seek for...they shall be ours as well. Seek to extend and expand God's kingdom and His righteousness.

Go look at a map, put your finger on every nation which has ever prospered, they are th nations where the gospel has prospered. Put your finger on all the nations where the people drag in the dirt, they are nations where there is no free church, no gospel.

You'll say ah Paul.

What about the other apostles? Peter was up to his knees in dosh...you'd have said he was a crook. I don't believe he used it to enrich himself...but he was able to lead his sister wife around with him...

 

[hopeinGod]

Money is possibly the most sought after commodity in any church and it's influence has caused great harm to many paupers in the assembly. I know this from experience.

When I was first saved, I was unable to give money to the church I attended, a nondenom. It had a praise group that I helped lead by doing the one thing I could, play my upright bass. But that simply was not enough to earn a place within the cliques that existed among strong givers and leadership. In fact, I was not at all noticed.

Then, as I grew in my career, I moved to another city, gave regularly to church, and within a couple of months was greeted by the pastor as I walked in, asked how I was doing, and generally made to feel like I was among friends. Through my faithful giving and several years of intensive systematic Bible training, I was asked to teach the adult Sunday morning class. In addition, I was asked to attend functions I was never asked to prior to my ability to give money.

Several of the single men who I knew well did not grow up as I did, in poverty. My father wrapped duct tape around the front of my shoes when the soles were coming loose and sent me off to school. In contrast, young men from the churches where I once fellowshipped came from financially stable, even wealthy, families. Their parents sent them checks each month to help them defray the costs of ordinary living, while I collected soda bottles as I hitchhiked to college, which I cashed in at the local Pic 'N Save where I ate my only meal of the day.

During one of those meetings, a well-to-do brother stood up during the service to make an announcement. Through his faithful giving, God sent him a $23,000 check to pay off his house. He failed to add that his father owned the largest department store in a moderately sized city in New York. The testimony was laughable, really. All that the poor had was the "seed faith" psychology while others had very deep bank accounts that would never dry.

The error that the prosperity adherents insist on blasting into the ears of the poor is a lie, iniquitous and far from the intent of Scripture.

 

[TehMill]

I doesn't listen to prosperity preachers, and I listen judiciously to testimonies.

I said you will never take these words out of the bible

Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over will MEN give into your bosom.

The WHOLE bible agrees with that statement whether the OT the gospels or the epistles...no where does God say that poverty is a blessing. He said "you always have the poor with you to do good to them" He didn't say we will always be poor. What good are you going to do to the poor?

Poverty as your testimony of your early life kind of hints is a curse not a blessing. Surely you can see in India that poverty is a curse.

John says "Beloved I willest above all things that thou mayest be in health and prosper....

...even as thy soul prospereth"

I believe that is significant, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..."

I agree there is a snare in prosperity...there is a snare in ANY blessing. What then shall we refuse God's blessing because there is a snare? if we do so the problem will still be in us but yet not having an opportunity to manifest itself. Isn't it better to first deal with whatever it is within us that would cause prosperity to be a snare?


...even as thy soul prospereth.

Prosperity is a magnification of YOU, your ministry, your expression [as also your testimony of your early life shows] prosperity did not harm YOU did it? it blessed you.

Somebody once said to me "if God healed somebody through me it would make me proud" I said well should you not deal with your problem of pride? It is there but it has no opportunity to manifest itself.

Yes any blessing has a danger, and perhaps prosperity is th greatest danger....man first sinned in the Garden of abundance....But God loves to bless, to give, to prosper our way. Let us aim to make our way pleasing before Him rather than spurn His blessing.