Another Justification Thread

[def]

The noun κρίνω deals with making a judgment or giving an answer. Here are some example uses of it in the NT:

Matthew 5:21 - "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’

Matthew 5:25 - "Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.

Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, that you be not judged."

Matthew 11:24 - "But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

John 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Need me to go on?

Matthew 7:1 'judge not' is non-judicial - a meaning besides judicial exists.

John 5:24 says that he does not come into judgement, meaning no judgement has been made, therefore, your judicial perspective is false.

 

[Guojing]

What does the word "justification" mean in Paul's sentence in Romans 5:18?

Romans 5:18 - Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

There is obviously some parallelism going on here. Let me lay out what I see as the parallels:

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation (and death) for all men,
so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Justification is a parallel concept to condemnation in this sentence. Condemnation does not describe a moral corruption, but describes a legal sentence issued because of guilt. Criminals are condemned by a judge due to their guilt. Continuing this parallel, it must be that justification is also a legal declaration. Justification is the legal declaration that a person is righteous and innocent of any crimes.

When God justifies us, he forgives our sins and accepts us as righteous. Justification is a legal declaration.

It is not a legal fiction any more than the guilt that we inherit from Adam is a legal fiction. Because Adam is our representative, his guilt is imputed to us and we are born with a guilt problem. In the same way, Jesus is the representative of his church and the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to believers. They are declared righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness just as the children of Adam are declared guilty on the basis of Adam's sin.

This verse if you want to pursue it, may lead to a justification for universalism.

If everyone is condemned for Adam's sin, even if they did not ask for that, likewise, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross leads to justification for all men, even if they did not ask for that.

 

[~Zao~]

This verse if you want to pursue it, may lead to a justification for universalism.

If everyone is condemned for Adam's sin, even if they did not ask for that, likewise, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross leads to justification for all men, even if they did not ask for that.

And He did justify the whole world. Justified to accept the pardon.Anyway, too late for me. Ya’ll can figure it out.

do not tangle yourself up in the affairs of the world.

Good night.

 

[Guojing]

And He did justify the whole world. Justified to accept the pardon.Anyway, too late for me. Ya’ll can figure it out.

do not tangle yourself up in the affairs of the world.

Good night.

I am no Calvinist but I can empathize how they use this verse to argue that there is a group elected into salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think any person would have done the same thing that Adam&Eve did; if we were in their shoes. So Adam&Eve were representing what all humans would do anyway. Thereby we are all guilty. (Of course, except Jesus)

Adam and Eve is a great example here. Eve bought the lie of Eternal Security from the serpent. The serpent told Eve that she could break God's command (i.e. to sin), and not die. God said that they would die the day they ate of the wrong tree. Seeing they did not die physically, we must conclude they died spiritually and they needed to be restored spiritually back to God in some way to be saved. But what is odd is that people today think you can sin and still be saved (Which is the same lie that the devil pushed upon Eve). So Justification as taught in the Bible does not include us thinking we can sin and still be saved on some level by having a belief alone on Jesus. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:8-11). So if we are not loving our brother, we are not walking in the light and thus we do not have the blood of Jesus cleansing us of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother), we are like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in us.

So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just focus a laser beam on those passages we prefer to see from our narrowed perspective or lens (Especially when that perspective is selfish in the fact that it justifies us sinning in some way - which is contrary to God's way of thinking; For Paul says, "We have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16). Do you think Christ would have the kind of thinking that would justify sin? Surely not. So then why are people thinking that way today?).

 

[fhansen]

What does the word "justification" mean in Paul's sentence in Romans 5:18?

Romans 5:18 - Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

There is obviously some parallelism going on here. Let me lay out what I see as the parallels:

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation (and death) for all men,
so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Justification is a parallel concept to condemnation in this sentence. Condemnation does not describe a moral corruption, but describes a legal sentence issued because of guilt. Criminals are condemned by a judge due to their guilt. Continuing this parallel, it must be that justification is also a legal declaration. Justification is the legal declaration that a person is righteous and innocent of any crimes.

When God justifies us, he forgives our sins and accepts us as righteous. Justification is a legal declaration.

It is not a legal fiction any more than the guilt that we inherit from Adam is a legal fiction. Because Adam is our representative, his guilt is imputed to us and we are born with a guilt problem. In the same way, Jesus is the representative of his church and the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to believers. They are declared righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness just as the children of Adam are declared guilty on the basis of Adam's sin.

We don't inherit the guilt of Adam; we inherit his fallen and lost condition. A real, ontological change took place in humankind. The original state of righteousness that Adam possessed was gone, innocence was lost. And the chief and most devastating aspect of that change was spiritual separation from God, sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul". Immediate knowledge of God was lost. Man no longer believed in a God; Adam had become his own "god" in the act of disobeying God's authority, and therefore denying His godhood. In this brave new world man was dead without knowing it, and lost: not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if for anything, and where he's going afterwards, if anywhere. He is self-righteous now, no longer "God-righteous" as he's no longer subjugated to God; man now does what's right in his own eyes, often with very ugly results. Once man assumes control, sin abounds; self-control is actually lost. Adam's pride now often motivates man's actions, rather than God. Adam preferred himself to God as one teaching I'm familiar with put it.

So since a real change, towards injustice/unrighteousness took place in humanity, a real change must take place in man if he's to be justified, to be made righteous again, as he was created to be. Man was made for communion with God, 'apart from Whom he can do nothing' (John 15:5). In order for man to be just, he must be freely forgiven of sin first of all, and cleansed of it, but then also made a new creation. Something positive must be added as a necessary component of that justice; he must enter intimate relationship with God. And this can only happen as man comes to know the true God and this is exactly Whom Jesus came to reveal. But man must be ready to accept this revelation, this new light; he must understand his need for it, so that faith may come, the faith that establishes union with God. Humankind had undergone a sort of training since Eden, since the Fall, and part of that training consisted in living in a world where the Master is effectively gone away, and experiencing all the evil and sin and meaninglessness and darkness that befalls the world when grace is lacking, and where man's will effectively reigns. We also experience good here, the innate good and beauty of God's creation and of existence itself. Man knows, by experience, both good and evil in this fallen world, as a result of Adam's sin.

And by revelation and grace God worked with and prepared man through a chosen people down through the centuries until we were ready, just barely perhaps, to receive the full revelation of Himself via the advent of His Son, where grace would now be poured out upon the earth. God had been patiently drawing man towards a choice, without force just as He wouldn't force Adam to choose rightly, the choice between good and evil, life and death, light and darkness, God or no God. Now God stood in our presence, now we know the difference, now we can choose. And when we choose Him, when we're sick and jaded by the darkness and the pride that darkens ourselves and our world and separates us from Him and our fellow man and the rest of creation and even from ourselves we may turn back to Him and He then fills us with Himself, and begins to satisfy that hunger that we've developed for something missing, for truth and righteousness, for Him. He is the justice we've lost. Our justification entails more than an imputed or declared justice, more than forgiveness, it entails the life of God and grace in us.

 

[redleghunter]

We inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin but they are guilty of their own sin. We are not guilty for their disobedience to God

Yet Romans 5 is clear we inherit the condemnation.

 

[~Zao~]

Adam and Eve is a great example here. Eve bought the lie of Eternal Security from the serpent. The serpent told Eve that she could break God's command (i.e. to sin), and not die. God said that they would die the day they ate of the wrong tree. Seeing they did not die physically, we must conclude they died spiritually and they needed to be restored spiritually back to God in some way to be saved. But what is odd is that people today think you can sin and still be saved (Which is the same lie that the devil pushed upon Eve). So Justification as taught in the Bible does not include us thinking we can sin and still be saved on some level by having a belief alone on Jesus. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother (See 1 John 2:8-11). So if we are not loving our brother, we are not walking in the light and thus we do not have the blood of Jesus cleansing us of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother (the opposite of loving your brother), we are like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in us.

So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just focus a laser beam on those passages we prefer to see from our narrowed perspective or lens (Especially when that perspective is selfish in the fact that it justifies us sinning in some way - which is contrary to God's way of thinking; For Paul says, "We have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16). Do you think Christ would have the kind of thinking that would justify sin? Surely not. So then why are people thinking that way today?).

If you looked at the whole context of the word in the context of the topic of Eve proving that OSAS was wrong then your theory doesn’t hold weight. Christ is the Tree of Life that we are to eat thereof. In fact that reverses your theory.

 

[Not David]

Yet Romans 5 is clear we inherit the condemnation.

It still does not say we inherit the guilt of Adam.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you looked at the whole context of the word in the context of the topic of Eve proving that OSAS was wrong then your theory doesn’t hold weight. Christ is the Tree of Life that we are to eat thereof. In fact that reverses your theory.

Not at all. Adam and Eve were prevented from eating of the Tree of Life because if they were to eat of that tree in their condemned sinful bodies and live forever. They would forever live in sinful contaminated sinful bodies forever and not die. They would be slaves to sin for all eternity. That would be horrible. They needed to die physically so as to be resurrected again by the power of Christ's resurrection.

Again, Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate of the wrong tree. For God said that they would die that very day. Seeing they did not die physically, they died spiritually. Eve bought into the lie that you can sin and be saved (or still in a right relationship with God), and that is not how things played out. They were banished from the Garden Paradise, and sin infected the world. So yeah, things are not as you say.

 

[D.A. Wright]

If you want to argue that "condemnation" is not strictly forensic then you'll have to demonstrate how this is so, preferably through other uses of the word in the NT itself. The greek word is κατάκριμα, which depends upon κρίνω. It appears to me to be strictly judicial.

So the burden of proof is upon the questioner of a strict (narrow) view based upon a single verse, nay, well-nigh a single word of the original tongue. Interesting demand, indeed.

 

[~Zao~]

Not at all. Adam and Eve were prevented from eating of the Tree of Life because if they were to eat of that tree in their condemned sinful bodies and live forever. They would forever live in sinful contaminated sinful bodies forever and not die. They would be slaves to sin for all eternity. That would be horrible. They needed to die physically so as to be resurrected again by the power of Christ's resurrection.

Again, Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate of the wrong tree. For God said that they would die that very day. Seeing they did not die physically, they died spiritually. Eve bought into the lie that you can sin and be saved (or still in a right relationship with God), and that is not how things played out. They were banished from the Garden Paradise, and sin infected the world. So yeah, things are not as you say.

Yah whatever, you eat from your tree and I’ll eat from mine.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yah whatever, you eat from your tree and I’ll eat from mine.

However, the true tree of life is better.

The true tree of life can be found in Romans 5:21, that says that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living).

The true tree of life can be found in Titus 2:11-12, that says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world..

The true tree of life can be found in Ephesians 5:25-27, that says that the reason Christ died for us was so that He might sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish.

 

[~Zao~]

I am no Calvinist but I can empathize how they use this verse to argue that there is a group elected into salvation.

I’m glad you used the word ‘election’ rather than the blanket term predestined which could mean Romans 8:28-39 or decreed like the event of Christ’s death Luke 22:22
With our limited minds we try to understand an infinite God.

The whole world being justified to accept the pardon does not set a limit in itself.

Election imo is 1 John 2:19-20 so I can’t argue for it or against it. Whether anointing is from foreknowledge as with Jacob and Esua my only guess (with no scripture to back it) is that all of us pre-existed. Personally I think Esua was more about trying to reconcile with both Isaac and Jacob than Jacob was.

But nevertheless, the word anointed was coined by Hanah in her prayer that brought about both hers and God’s desires, so therefore it belongs to mutuality.

 

[fhansen]

We inherit the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin but they are guilty of their own sin. We are not guilty for their disobedience to God

Yes. And then the question is whether or not we'll carry on the family tradition.

 

[Blade]

Not sure I am following this right so forgive me. Legal.. do we have courts here? There is in heaven. Got one always accusing us.. and the other side now Christ HELLO! Many ways to look at this I think. If all around me were slaves or something to that effect. Trying to think lol. And I was born among them. Everything that is on them so to speak is on me. Though I did nothing wrong. I am just a guilty. I would be paying the price for what someone else did...I think lol. Lot of rules laws would apply. Theres so much more I think to this. Adam and Eve sinned. What was theres was handed given to Satan.

And Satan does in fact have rights. Many don't see this. Thats just ONE small reason God said to Satan "have you considered my servant Job". It was not just God handing Job over. Satan knew about the wall or what ever God had about Job. Anyway..not about Job. I never or just didn't listen to this "guilt" handed down? I can see it. I would feel in this place where I am a slave.. everything everyone around me feels.

Then someone comes in.. and for some odd reason.. He wants to take everything on Himself. And now I am free.. there is nothing over me any more. Then.. I am given things.. that I didn't ask for. He shares what is of Him.. given now to all of us. Justified .. righteous. All of which .. I never was. Yet now I am.. sorry.. lost my self.. just thinking like this..made me cry.. just want to fall at this man? This persons feet ..can stop crying. Who would do such a thing. I can not even begin to understand this love.

Father I am so humbled before you..for what you did.. thank you my lord.. my Savior.. Jesus Christ.