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Another interesting verse

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Miss Shelby, Sep 23, 2002.

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  1. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Here, let me answer that question the simplest way I know how. First, I believe that it has already been established that people can do miracles in the name of Christ, and Christ still not know them. Hence "depart from me you evil worker of iniquity, for I never knew you."
    But here's another answer that is just as obvious.

    First, we have to realize that the Bible is based on covenants, I often discuss this on the issue of baptism. Let's look at a couple of examples involving branches-

    John 15:5,6- "I am the vine, you are the branches: he that abides in me and I in him, hte same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
    If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

    Rom. 11:16-18- "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were graften in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you."

    Anyway, the point I'd like to make is this, briefly. Before the resurrection, the Jews were considered God's chosen people. Jews of the Abrahamic covenant, the covenant of circumcision, were all partakers in the gifts of the covenant, even if they were not truly of the sheep. Judas was obviously a partaker of the covenant, and a special partaker at that, for he was chosen as one of the 12 that would be closest to Christ. He had all the privelages of the other disciples...but the question is, how did this make him one of the sheep?
    The simple answer to this is that it didn't. He was one of the branches that came from the vine of Christ. And since Christ abode not in him, Judas was cast off from the vine.
    How could Judas have been a branch and not been saved? The same way that physical Israel was part of the covenant of God, the olive tree, but were not all of the elect. And since the non-believers of Israel were not of God's chosen, they were cast forth from off the olive tree, and the Gentiles (and Jewish Christians) were grafted in. Those whom Christ abided in were not cast forth, but they went on to bear much fruit, just as Christ said they would. Judas, being that Christ did not abide in him, was cut off...and in stead of going on to bear fruit, went crazy and killed himself, which I would hardly call bearing fruit.

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    John6:60-70, paraphrased:

    "'Does this cause you to stumble? What if you see Me ascend to where I was BEFORE? It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is nothing; but the words _I_ have spoken are spirit and life. But some of you won't believe. I have said, no one can come to Me unless the Father grants it.' And because He was equating Himself to God, many disciples withdrew. Jesus then said to the twelve, 'YOU aren't going to leave ALSO, are you?' Peter said, 'No, of course not; we know you are the Messiah.' Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose ALL TWELVE of you, but one of you became a devil?'"

    You really believe Judas was never saved?
     
  3. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    i'll resubmit later.
     
  4. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    My last post was inundated with url/bold quote things that I couldn't edit. 

    sola fide:

    Jesus knew Judas.

    John 2 24 25 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them for he knew all men.  He needed no man's testimony for he  knew what was in a man.

    Jesus trusted Judas.

    Ps 41, even my close friend whom I trusted has lifted his heel against me.   Betrayal requires a sense of trust.  Jesus knew Judas, there is no other way of looking at it.


    Jesus also tells us in Matthew chapter 12 that satan cannot cast out satan or else the kingdom cannot stand.  If Judas was of the reprobate group, then according to you he belonged to satan.  How then did he cast out the demons?

    Michelle


     
     
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    :clap: @ Michelle!

    :)
     
  6. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Just for my personal reference, I'd like to know if there are some specific instances where Judas casted out devils in the Bible. I'll discuss it further after seeing the scriptures.
     
  7. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

    323
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    thought you might like this to...here's the Webster's definitions for betray-
    1. to deliver to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty.
    2. to be unfaithful in.
    3. to reveal or disclose.
    4. to seduce and desert.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Jesus also tells us in Matthew chapter 12 that satan cannot cast out satan or else the kingdom cannot stand."

    Being not of God or an evildoer doesn't make you of satan (the being). BIG difference. Atheists are not of satan, nor are they deamons, but in God's eyes they are evil doers.
     
  9. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Matthew 10

    He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
    These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


    Notice that it says all twelve were given this authority.  Are we to assume because there isn't a specific verse which shows Judas doing the work the Lord commissioned him to do, that he didn't do it?   If Judas wasn't given kingdom authority why would it say that all twelve were?

    Michelle
     
  10. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Thanks for the definitions, sola fide.  There is still Ps 41 which shows that Jesus trusted Judas.

    Michelle
     
  11. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Your contention seems to be that Judas didn't belong to satan until he was possessed?  Guess what Louis.  I actually agree with you.  But I agree with you because I think that Judas was indeed a true believer until such time that he fell away.

    It seems though, that you would be in disagreement with sola fide, because his view is that Judas willingly submitted to satan hence he  belonged to satan all along.  Do you agree with that?

    Michelle
     
  12. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    sola fide,Louis &  Ben johnson, ( & whoever else)

    I won't be around again until the middle of next week. Hope we can continue the discussion. See you guys later. :)

    Michelle
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ". But I agree with you because I think that Judas was indeed a true believer until such time that he fell away.
    "

    and this is where I disagree ;) Judus was never a believer to fall away.
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    okay MissS, have a great umm..weekend and middle of the week!!
     
  15. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    Okay, the Louis.  I am confident that I have provided enough Scriptural evidence to prove that Judas was at one time in good standing with the Lord:

    1:  He was a sheep

    2: He enjoyed fellowship with a Savior who trusted him.

    3. He was a chosen disciple who left everything to follow Christ.

    4. He was a holy representative in Judea, doing the work of the Lord.

    Through sin he fell into apostasy which placed the state of his soul into a precarious postision to say the least.   It can happen to Judas and it can happen to any believer.

     

    Oh sola feeeeeee-daaaayyyy?  Where'd ya go?

     

    Michelle
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "1: He was a sheep

    2: He enjoyed fellowship with a Savior who trusted him.

    3. He was a chosen disciple who left everything to follow Christ.

    4. He was a holy representative in Judea, doing the work of the Lord.
    "

    1. Christ thought he was, or maybe he said it in a general way not meaning to include Judus

    2. So did other sinners, that doesn't mean anything.

    3. and 4. I have provided scripture to show you this doesn't mean anything because we see Judus was not truely a christian.

    Faith that doesn't perserve is faith that is flawed from the beginning, and as the perfector of our faith, God doesn't make flawed things, so it was not faith at all :)
     
  17. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    God doesn't make flawed things?  He made all of us, and we're flawed.  I find it very disturbing that you would think that someone who backslides and never returns to the Lord had no real faith to begin with.  :(

    Michelle

     
     
  18. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Alrighty people, I'm back...been kinda busy.
    Anyway, I keep seeing scripture references to that statement about Satan's kingdom not being able to stand. My first and most obvious reply to that question is....is his kingdom still standing? If so will it stand forever? You have to answer no to at least one of those questions. The kingdom of Satan will not last, if it is in fact in existence today, so I very well believe that a reprobate could have done or could still be doing the work of the ministry, and whatever that work entails. I'm sure you've all heard of ministers bearing ungodly fruit. Why did they bear ungodly fruit?...because they were never of God. They might have "led thousands to Christ", stress the quotation marks, yet still, the whole time they were living ungodly lives. Why?...once again, they were never of God. God can use the most ungodly person alive to fulfill His purpose. Romans 9 tells us that God used pharoah to show His power. It also tells us that He has every right to prepare other vessels of wrath for the same purpose.
    Also, as I mentioned much, much earlier....we must address the issue of fruit when it comes to the professing Christian. Scripture shows no evidence of Judas bearing fruit. On that contrary, it showed him being quite puzzled by the actions of Christ, even before the betrayal, Judas was apparently caniving.
    "Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.
    But one of the disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money; and he used to take what was put in it." - John 12:3-6

    "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the eivl treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Luke 6:45

    John told us in his gospel account earlier not only what Judas did, but he told us why he did it...."not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief". Out of the abundance of his heart, his mouth spoke...he was a wicked person, who brought forth wicked fruit.


    But here's something off of that subject...at what point did Judas actually lose his salvation? Was he a good guy at first, then he kinda back-slid, then he just all out lost it? Or was he a great person then suddenly had a turn for the worse?
    You know, this kinda thing happens all of the time today. People are just on fire for Christ, just as saved as can be, then the next moment they commit a haneous act and kill themselves. Darn, too bad, they lost their salvation....They had it all going for them too, right up there til the end.
    So when did Judas lose the salvation that he had so rightly earned? He must have earned it right? He couldn't lose it if it was a free gift, unless Christ is an "indian-giver" that is. He earned it by deceiving Christ right? Remember the definition I gave of deceive earlier?...to seduce....He seduced Christ into giving him salvation....then he threw it right back in the Lord's face right?
    Did he lose it the moment he sold Jesus out? Or was it before that, when he started plotting it? No, wait, it had to have been the moment they came and arrested Jesus right? Because he wasn't actually guilty until they arrested Him.
    Does that all sound ridiculous? It should, because I know it does to me...yet that's exactly what you're saying.


    Your argument that Judas must have been "saved" b/c he had the "kingdom authority" (that sounds like something Adrian Rogers would say) to cast out demons is a straw man.

    "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Yor name, CAST OUT DEMONS IN YOUR NAME, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" - Matthew 7:21-23

    How explicit is that? There are people who cast out demons in the name of Christ that Christ in all actuallity never knew as one of His sheep. Therefore, I can logically conclude after hearing your argument....that nothing says Christ knew Judas as one of His sheep.

    The only valid argument left that you can present is Psalm 41...and that scripture is once again a straw man. Why? simple. Do you notice what portion of that scripture Christ quoted in the gospel of John? Here, let me quote it:

    "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, he that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." - John 13:18

    Which part of Psalm 41 did he quote? If you didn't notice he apparently must have omitted "my own familiar friend in whom I had trusted" by complete accident, right? No, I don't think so...He quoted the exact part of scripture that had been fulfilled through Him....that a person who ate with Him, at His table would turn against Him.
    Several commentators contribute the non-prophetic aspect of Psalm 41 to the treason of Ahithophel noted in 2Samuel 15:31. Some also contribute Psalm 3:1,2 and Psalm 55:12 as dealing with the same situation.
    Christ did not give an exact quotation of Psalm 41....He told us the exact prophesy that was to be fulfilled.

    Once again... I do not believe that you have given any evidence that Judas was of the elect. To say that Judas was of the elect is to say that God failed to finish something that He had started. He sprinkled a little saving grace Judas' way, but Judas decided God's grace wasn't what he desired...He'd rather just go hang himself. The idea that one of the sheep can be taken from the hand of the Shephard goes against the entire canon of Scripture. It takes control out of the hands of God, and into the hands of man. But, of course, who can blame us sinful people for wanting to exaggerate our role in salvation....we are prideful creatures after all. Who wants to give God all the credit?....we have to make a decision after all right?
    Christ "spoke not to [them] all, He knew who [He] had chosen...and quite frankly, He had not chosen Judas as one of the elect....If he had, he would have finished the job (Hebrews 12:2).

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    What silly logic---this is founded on the assumption that "God installs salvation in DEFERENCE to our own BELIEF (or He INSTALLS or CAUSES that belief...).

    First, please read John 6:66-70: "Many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him any more. Jesus said THEREFORE to the twelve, 'YOU are not going away TOO, are you?' And Peter answered Him, 'Lord, where will we go? You have words of eternal life. We believe & know You are the MESSIAH!' And Jesus said, 'Did I not CHOOSE YOU THE TWELVE, and ONE of you is a devil?' "

    Does Jesus make any distinction here between Judas & the other 11? NO! He chose EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM THE SAME WAY! Oh you think that He purposely chose Judas as an UNSAVED DISCIPLE??? Then you miss the entire context.
    "YOU aren't going away TOO, are you?!"
    "No, Lord, we know You are the Messiah."
    "But one of you that I DID choose DID LEAVE! So it's POSSIBLE that any ONE OF YOU TOO can leave!"

    Can you convince us that Jesus WASN'T saying that it was possible for ANYONE to leave??? Go for it! Please.

    And you prejudicially only propose TWO MEANS of salvation---a unilateral gift, or a work we earn ourselves---but BOTH are wrong. It is a gift, but not UNILATERAL---it is a gift we RECEIVE. The entire Bible presents our position as voluntary. Read Romans 5:17---"those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness"---can you successfully contend that our RECEIVING is not VOLUNTARY? The receiving is voluntary, the abiding is voluntary, the growing is voluntary, the enduring/persevering, everything is voluntary. From start to finish.

    For by grace (God's) are you saved, through faith (ours! Our own belief, faith-to-salvation)
    Great---then it should be very easy for you to QUOTE some of those Scriptures---go for it!
    Well, uhm, actually, YES WE DO MAKE A DECISION---we receive Christ, we abide in Him, we endure, persevere, keep ourselves in His love, we do not throw away our confidence (Jesus), we are steadfast and firmly established and not moved away from Jesus; we stay saved if we do not return to a doctrine of works (or we will be SEVERED FROM CHRIST and FALLEN FROM GRACE), if we have not our hearts hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God, if we have not forgotten our purification from former sins, if we produce good fruit and not bad ('cause JESUS said every bad-fruit-tree is cut & burned!), if we do not continue sinning willfully after RECEIVING true-knowledge of the truth, if we do not trample underfoot the Son of God and regard as unclean the blood of the covenant by which we WERE SANCTIFIED and insulted the Spirit of Grace, if we do not grieve the Holy Spirit, if we do not go too far and NOT ABIDE in Christ's teachings---you want any of these specific verses cited? We will be very happy to. All of cannon? I sincerely would like to understand what I have been missing this far...
    I knew you were gonna quote Heb12:2---or, rather, mis-quote it...

    "Therefore, since we have so gread a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us (editor's note: shall we discuss the TRULY SAVED in 2Pet2:20-22, who were LIKEWISE entangled in sin and LOST salvation? Do you think here he is saying, 'Entangled, but don't sweat it you'll NEVER FALL FROM SALVATION?'), let us run with endurance (editor's note: endurance? Why? OSAS says it's impossible NOT to endure! Endurance comes from God. Or does it?) ...the race set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith..." OOPS, I was wrong. Jesus AUTHORED our faith, and He will FINISH IT IN SPITE OF OURSELVES. Right?

    Right---according to English. But what does the original GREEK say? The "ARCHEGOS" and "TELEIOTES" of faith---the LEADER and PERFECTOR-by-His-own-EXAMPLE! The usage of this verse for predestination just vaporized---He is the LEADER and EXAMPLE---not the author & finisher by unilateral machinations.

    OK, we await your citing "from all of canon" that no one can ever leave from His hand (you can't use Jn10:28, it says "harpazo", seize or remove forcibly---we need a verse that says YOU cannot fall by SIN or DECEIT! Can't use Rm8:38-39, 'cause He loves even the Hell-bound, and HE remains faithful even if we FALL according to 2Tim2:11-13).

    And we would like you to answer, "can a NON-CHRISTIAN really cast out demons?" Remember Acts 19:14-16? THEY certainly couldn't do it!

    :)
     
  20. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

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    sola fide,

    God 'sprinkled a little grace Judas' way' and Judas decided he didn't want it?' Is that how it works? I thought either God gives you the Grace or He doesn't  and once you have the grace He will complete the work which He started according to reformed theology?

    Anyway... I'm not going to bother using the quote brackets. I am just going to repost the Scripture references I posted numerous times in this thread regarding Judas.

    You seem to think he wasn't called?

    Luke 6 13-16 identifies him as a called and chosen disciple.

    Luke 14:27 describes what a disciple does. Judas went when Jesus called.

    Matthew Chapter 10 v 1 verifies that all 12 were given kingdom authority.

    Matthew Chapter 10 v 16 identifies Judas as a sheep.

    Matthew chapter 12 states that satan can't cast out satan. Your Matthew 7 21 argument is bogus because as you know...Jesus knew Judas..

    John 2 25 --states that Jesus needs no man's testimony because He knows what is in a man.

    ps 41 Jesus trusted Judas... my close friend whom I trusted has lifted his heel against me.

    You brought up Judas sins. May I ask you what difference does that make? His sins do not hold a candle to the sins of some of the of the great champions of the faith. So I find that to be strawman.

    You also mentioned his lack of fruit. He walked with Christ for three years. That doesn't give a believer a whole lot of time to bear fruit. The fruit of the Spirit takes time to develop. It takes some people a lifetime to bear fruit.

    When did he fall away? I don't know. But Acts tells us that he fell through transgression. Transgression is sin.

    That is a whole lot of Scripture. Your post contained assumptions based on what you'd like to believe.

    :wave: to Ben johnson

    Michelle
     
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