Another interesting verse

Status
Not open for further replies.

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
This one is from the KJV:

Act 1:25 "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 

I checked a few other versions, a few said 'by transgression fell'-- a few others (NIV)-said 'left' or 'turned aside'

To the point:  What did he fall from?

 

Michelle


 
 

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Actually in the NIV it says, "to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judus left to go where he belongs.."

Great transtlation ;)

He left the company of christ. That is not to say he revoked salvation. he went where he "belonged" sounds like to me a great verse for Calvinists to use (though I am not one). Good try though.

Oh just so ya know, this is one way that greek word can be translated,

"to go past or pass over without touching a thing"

Not anywhere conclusive though, so I'd say this verse is interesting, but not as much as the one I pointed out earlier ;)
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth

Oh just so ya know, this is one way that greek word can be translated,

"to go past or pass over without touching a thing"

I can always count on Louis to talk to me. :)

Do you mean the greek word 'left' can be translated that way?


Not anywhere conclusive though, so I'd say this verse is interesting, but not as much as the one I pointed out earlier ;)

It's just one verse, but there are more to support that  the soul of Judas was at one time in good standing with the Lord.   Read Matthew Chapter 10 and pay close at attention to verse 16.

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"Do you mean the greek word 'left' can be translated that way?
"

There is no greek word "left" ??

"Read Matthew Chapter 10 and pay close at attention to verse 16."

hmm...so? We are shown that people can do these things in the Name of the Lord and not know him at all, what makes Judus any different?

"depart from me I NEVER knew you." Remember that?
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Here's the verse:

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

This is right after Jesus commissioned the 12 to go teach, preach, heal, drive out demons....etc. Nevermind the fact that He gave kingdom authority and power to Judas.....but he also calls him a sheep.

He didn't say 'I am sending 11 of you out like sheep among wolves, and one of you is a wolf.'  He said they were all sheep.

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"He didn't say 'I am sending 11 of you out like sheep among wolves, and one of you is a wolf. He said they were all sheep."

And is specfically marks Judus as the one betraying him in the openning passage telling us that he wasn't the one Christ might have been refering to. As i said before, people do those things and aren't christians, so I see no point at all.
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth

And is specfically marks Judus as the one betraying him in the openning passage telling us that he wasn't the one Christ might have been refering to. As i said before, people do those things and aren't christians, so I see no point at all.


Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus.  Does this not imply that Jesus had some trust in him?  Otherwise how could it have been betrayal?


People do what things and aren't Christians at all?  Drive out demons in Jesus name?  Leave everything, take up their cross and follow Jesus?  Judas was a chosen disciple. The Bible is clear.. and through sin he fell. 

Why would Jesus give kingdom authority to someone who was never a part of the kingdom?

 

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

sola fide

neo-Puritan
Aug 2, 2002
323
7
43
✟660.00
Faith
Calvinist
Why does God give authority to modern day rulers that are not of the kingdom? One does not have to be of the faith to be used by God correct? Even in authority positions?
Romans 9:17-"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

When the scripture mentioned in this thread speaks of Judas falling, in the context (Acts 1:25) It's clearly talking of the position which Judas held...not a spiritual state he was in. It doesn't mention that he was one of the elect of God, or anything to that effect. It simply means that he messed up and lost his position, and now he is in the place God ordained for him to be. God had accomplished His purpose with Judas, and had no more use for him.
And since it is written that there must be 12 apostles, one for each tribe of Israel, then they had to find a replacement for Judas. I'm sorry if I'm not addressing the question here, but I don't understand the difficulty in this verse, let me know if I missed something somewhere.
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by sola fide Why does God give authority to modern day rulers that are not of the kingdom? One does not have to be of the faith to be used by God correct? Even in authority positions?
Romans 9:17-"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."


The authority given to the disciples by Jesus enabled them to perform miracles in Jesus Name. God can use anyone He wants to suit His own purpose, but those he grants powers to do miracles, would that not require their belief in Him?


When the scripture mentioned in this thread speaks of Judas falling, in the context (Acts 1:25) It's clearly talking of the position which Judas held...not a spiritual state he was in. It doesn't mention that he was one of the elect of God, or anything to that effect. It simply means that he messed up and lost his position, and now he is in the place God ordained for him to be. God had accomplished His purpose with Judas, and had no more use for him.
And since it is written that there must be 12 apostles, one for each tribe of Israel, then they had to find a replacement for Judas. I'm sorry if I'm not addressing the question here, but I don't understand the difficulty in this verse, let me know if I missed something somewhere.

How is it clearly speaking of only his postion--(his ministry)--?  The verse says by transgression he fell.  Transgression is sin.  Sin is done willfully.  And he must have fallen from something. He fell from grace and lost his salvation.  God didn't create Him to get what He needed out of him so He could then fling him into hell.  Judas had a choice.

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"Otherwise how could it have been betrayal? "

It wasn't unknown. Christ knew it would happen.

"Why would Jesus give kingdom authority to someone who was never a part of the kingdom? "

MissS I think you should read this passage.

Mat 7:22 "many will say to me on that dsay, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your nmae, and in your name drive out demons and preform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Auntie

THANK YOU JESUS!!
Apr 16, 2002
7,624
657
Visit site
✟27,878.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by Miss Shelby

To the point:  What did he fall from?

 

Michelle


 


Put the emphasis on different words, and you will get the answer, imo.

Act 1:25 "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship , from which Judas by transgression fell , that he might go to his own place."


What did Judas fall from? Answer: " this ministry and apostleship ".:)
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Otherwise how could it have been betrayal? "

It wasn't unknown. Christ knew it would happen.


Ps. 41 : "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me,


"Why would Jesus give kingdom authority to someone who was never a part of the kingdom? "

MissS I think you should read this passage.

Mat 7:22 "many will say to me on that dsay, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your nmae, and in your name drive out demons and preform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

This was addressed in the other thread by Ben johnson, so I am cutting and pasting his response.   Louis--I think you should read Matthew chapter 10 in it's entirety for a clearer picture of Judas.

They will of course use Matt7:22-23. But someone over at the leftbehind board once said the "I never knew you", is compatible with an <B>anullment</B>---not meaning that they were NEVER SAVED, but that in <B>disbelieving</B>, they had anulled their relationship with Christ, as if it had never happened. Miss Shelby's point about satan casting out satan is well taken; remember the sons of a Jewish priest who tried to cast out demons? With disasterous results? (Acts 19:14-16)

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Put the emphasis on different words, and you will get the answer, imo.

Act 1:25 "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship , from which Judas by transgression fell , that he might go to his own place."


What did Judas fall from? Answer: " this ministry and apostleship ".:)

&nbsp;

Scripture proves that along with Judas' apostleship that he was 'chosen'.&nbsp; :)&nbsp; Thanks for making my point for me Auntie.



<BLOCKQUOTE>
"When morning came, he called HIS DISCIPLES to him and chose twelve of them whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13-16).

Michelle

I am&nbsp;editing this to add 'in my humble opinion.'&nbsp;:)

&nbsp;
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"Ps. 41 : "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me, "

Umm..I have non christian friends that I trust?

"Louis--I think you should read Matthew chapter 10 in it's entirety for a clearer picture of Judas. "

I did read that chapter and as I showed you that doesn't mean he was a christian. He was doomed from the beginning.

"I am editing this to add 'in my humble opinion"

I'm glad you like that translation, others say Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. the point is that I have shown people that do all these things you have pointed out who are not, nor ever were, covered by the blood of Christ. So thus, ends that argument.
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth "Ps. 41 : "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me, "

Umm..I have non christian friends that I trust?

If Jesus could see into the man's heart and then bestow trust in him, Judas had to have been saved at that point.&nbsp; Why would Christ have trusted him if&nbsp;&nbsp; from the onset Judas had been a devil?
"Louis--I think you should read Matthew chapter 10 in it's entirety for a clearer picture of Judas. "

I did read that chapter and as I showed you that doesn't mean he was a christian. He was doomed from the beginning.

You haven't shown any such thing.&nbsp; What I have shown FROM SCRIPTURE is:&nbsp; 1) Judas fell from grace through sin.&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) Judas was a sheep(at one time, at least) &nbsp; 3) Judas lived the crucified life of a believer (note the verse which states that Jesus called and chose Judas and referred to him as a disciple.)&nbsp; What does it take to be called a disciple?&nbsp; Hint:&nbsp; Luke 14:27&nbsp; Did Judas leave everything, take up his cross and follow Christ?&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes he did. 4.) There is NO POSSIBLE way Judas could have been a devil child from the onset because he performed miracles in Jesus Name and Jesus said that if Satan casts out Satan the kingdom will not stand.

I'm glad you like that translation, others say Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. the point is that I have shown people that do all these things you have pointed out who are not, nor ever were, covered by the blood of Christ.

No you haven't.&nbsp; Remember,&nbsp;your &nbsp;Matthew 7 22-23 argument was show false.&nbsp; It doesn't mean that Jesus never knew the people, just that he may as well have never known them because due to their unbelief their salvation had been forfeited.&nbsp; And besides... if that verse meant what you say that it does, then it totally contracticts Matthew 12:26 which states that Satan cannot cast out Satan or the kingdom will not stand.

So thus, ends that argument.

Thus saith Louis Booth!&nbsp; Alright, if you want to bow out that is fine with me.&nbsp;&nbsp; I probably would too, if I were you. ;)

&nbsp;

Michelle
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"If Jesus could see into the man's heart and then bestow trust in him, Judas had to have been saved at that point. "

You assume Christ made a habit of looking into people's hearts. He problaby didn't, there is no evidience that he did. Thus we have to assume he thought he was a good man until sometime later he found out he wasn't from the Father.


"2) Judas was a sheep(at one time, at least"

Nope and on to #3 as well. At no time did Judus do any of those things. to be a follower of christ in that time ment to walk around with him, not anything else.
Judus was choosen because that's who the Father told him to choose, because the Father new Judus was to betray him.

"There is NO POSSIBLE way Judas could have been a devil child from the onset because he performed miracles in Jesus Name and Jesus said that if Satan casts out Satan the kingdom will not stand. "

1. I never said he was a devil, nor a deamon, just someone that is not saved. 2. I have given you a biblical example of someone that doesn't know God yet casts out deamons. thus Judus was one of these.

"Alright, if you want to bow out that is fine with me. I probably would too, if I were you. "

I am because its obvious you dont' want to accept what the bible says on this. Judus was never covered by the blood of christ, nor have you shown he fell away. I have shown that he was not covered by the blood and refuteing everything you have said about this subject, so yes I think I will bow out now.
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If Jesus could see into the man's heart and then bestow trust in him, Judas had to have been saved at that point. "

You assume Christ made a habit of looking into people's hearts. He problaby didn't, there is no evidience that he did. Thus we have to assume he thought he was a good man until sometime later he found out he wasn't from the Father.

Ok, if this is&nbsp;the case then it is impossible for either one of us to know whether he was saved or unsaved--basing it soley on the fact that Jesus trusted him.&nbsp; However... there is more...&nbsp;


"2) Judas was a sheep(at one time, at least"

Nope and on to #3 as well. At no time did Judus do any of those things. to be a follower of christ in that time ment to walk around with him, not anything else.
Judus was choosen because that's who the Father told him to choose, because the Father new Judus was to betray him.

Matthew Chapter 10 verse 16 is Jesus saying that He is sending the 12 out like sheep among wolves.&nbsp; He makes no distinction that one of them is not a sheep. This is straight from the Bible.


Number 3 shows that he was called, chosen and that he was named a disciple, an apostle and that he followed.&nbsp; And that&nbsp;he became a traitor.&nbsp; I'm going by what the Bible says.

"There is NO POSSIBLE way Judas could have been a devil child from the onset because he performed miracles in Jesus Name and Jesus said that if Satan casts out Satan the kingdom will not stand. "

1. I never said he was a devil, nor a deamon, just someone that is not saved. 2. I have given you a biblical example of someone that doesn't know God yet casts out deamons. thus Judus was one of these.

No, you didn't say he was a devil child.&nbsp; But if a person's soul is in the state of unbelief and unregenerated, who is their father?

As for Matthew 7 22-23, there are two contradictions that I see here.&nbsp; It says that on that day many will say to me. Lord.&nbsp; Lord.. I did all of these things in your name including casting out demons and he will say depart from me I never knew you...but&nbsp;that &nbsp;contradicts Matthew 12:26 which explicitly states that Satan cannot cast out Satan... and there is&nbsp;another example in this thread where an unbeliever in Acts tried to cast out demons and it didn't work.&nbsp; Why?

Not only that, but Jesus did know Judas.&nbsp; Remember, he called him his friend.&nbsp; At one time he did know him.&nbsp; What do you think about the possibility that Matthew 722-23 could be an annullment as Ben johnson said.... meaning that after forfeiting salvation it was as if it never existed in the first place?


"Alright, if you want to bow out that is fine with me. I probably would too, if I were you. "

I am because its obvious you dont' want to accept what the bible says on this. Judus was never covered by the blood of christ, nor have you shown he fell away. I have shown that he was not covered by the blood and refuteing everything you have said about this subject, so yes I think I will bow out now.

I don't suppose either one of us is inclined to change our minds on this issue.&nbsp; I hope you come back, but if not so long.&nbsp; As always, it's been a pleasure. :)

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Louis:

You assume Christ made a habit of looking into people's hearts. He problaby didn't, there is no evidience that he did. Thus we have to assume he thought he was a good man until sometime later he found out he wasn't from the Father.

I am making an addendum to my above post. I was reading John today and came across this (in the NIV ;)&nbsp; )

John 2 24-25
But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

Yet he still chose to trust Judas. Incredible.

Michelle
 
Upvote 0

LouisBooth

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2002
8,895
64
✟19,588.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
"However... there is more... "

Okay, then show me :)

"Matthew Chapter 10 verse 16 is Jesus saying that He is sending the 12 out like sheep among wolves. He makes no distinction that one of them is not a sheep. This is straight from the Bible. "

Yup, so what? God the father knew nuclear physics and Christ didn't. God the father knew that Judus wasn't a sheep, Christ didn't. Its called limiting himself. It seems he found out later though.

"But if a person's soul is in the state of unbelief and unregenerated, who is their father? "

an unsaved person is not a devil. they are the people not covered by christ's blood. That's it.

"but that contradicts Matthew 12:26 which explicitly states that Satan cannot cast out Satan"

Exactly, there is no contradiction at all. Unsaved are a slave to SIN, not to satan, don't give him so much power, he isn't the antithesis of God. He is just a pitiful being that tried to overthrow God.

"Yet he still chose to trust Judas. Incredible. "

Context MissS. Context. This is clearly a generic statement, "what's in a man". Its ment to show that they wouldn't believe, or understand. Like when you talk to a group of people and they expect something of you, you know them.

Whats really cool is if you read JOhn 18 you will see the statement, "let these men go. He did this so it would be fufilled: " I have not lost one of those you gave me." He couldn't be refering to Judus as well because Judus wasn't suspect, he was the "snitch". Therefore we can conclude that the "those you gave me." Where the 11 disciples. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Miss Shelby

Legend
Feb 10, 2002
31,242
3,255
57
✟88,282.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by LouisBooth "However... there is more... "

Okay, then show me :)

"Matthew Chapter 10 verse 16 is Jesus saying that He is sending the 12 out like sheep among wolves. He makes no distinction that one of them is not a sheep. This is straight from the Bible. "

Yup, so what? God the father knew nuclear physics and Christ didn't. God the father knew that Judus wasn't a sheep, Christ didn't. Its called limiting himself. It seems he found out later though.

What you are basically saying&nbsp;then is that we cannot trust the words of Jesus.&nbsp; See...Jesus called him a sheep.&nbsp; But you seem to believe that God cleverly hid the fact that he was&nbsp;a sheep from him, (that he hid it from himself) &nbsp;allowing him to believe that he was one?&nbsp; Can you produce a Bible verse to support that?


"But if a person's soul is in the state of unbelief and unregenerated, who is their father? "

an unsaved person is not a devil. they are the people not covered by christ's blood. That's it.

"but that contradicts Matthew 12:26 which explicitly states that Satan cannot cast out Satan"

Exactly, there is no contradiction at all. Unsaved are a slave to SIN, not to satan, don't give him so much power, he isn't the antithesis of God. He is just a pitiful being that tried to overthrow God.

Why then, in Acts 19 did&nbsp;the son of a&nbsp;Jewish priest who said he knew Jesus end up in a worse situation with some demons than what he started with?&nbsp; Because of his unbelief, maybe?

Your position is that you believe people can perform miracles in Jesus Name, have them be authentic miracles but they themselves don't necessarily have to be believers in the Lord?&nbsp; I wonder how many other people believe this?

You didn't answer my question about Mattew 7 21-23.&nbsp;
"Yet he still chose to trust Judas. Incredible. "

Context MissS. Context. This is clearly a generic statement, "what's in a man". Its ment to show that they wouldn't believe, or understand. Like when you talk to a group of people and they expect something of you, you know them.

Whats really cool is if you read JOhn 18 you will see the statement, "let these men go. He did this so it would be fufilled: " I have not lost one of those you gave me." He couldn't be refering to Judus as well because Judus wasn't suspect, he was the "snitch". Therefore we can conclude that the "those you gave me." Where the 11 disciples. :)

Nope.&nbsp; It says he needed no man's testimony because he knew what was in a man.&nbsp; If we believe these words of Scripture then we must assume that He did in fact know what was in Judas' heart.&nbsp; He trusted him, even referred to him as his friend.

More later.

Michelle
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.