Another Fossil Transitional Species that shouldn't exist ... Meet Pappochelys

[Loudmouth]

ROFL my bet is you are clueless as to what the word vestigial means. HInt: you cannot claim that a creature that has functional hearing has vestigial hearing nerves

Do you know what a pseudogene is?

 

[MikeEnders]

Do you know what a pseudogene is?

Yes . Do you?

The plot thickens and this gets even better

 

[MikeEnders]

but hey? Blow the poor uneducated creationist out of the water with your definition of pseudogenes and how it shows TO right.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes . Do you?

Yes, which makes me wonder why you would use the example you did.

"you cannot claim that a creature that has functional hearing has vestigial hearing nerves"

Those olfactory receptors aren't found in the nose. They aren't produced by the cells. No protein is made from those genes. You do realize this, don't you?

 

[MikeEnders]

Those olfactory receptors aren't found in the nose. They aren't produced by the cells. No protein is made from those genes. You do realize this, don't you?

oh So these psuedeogenes were like inherited from when they were terrestrials (and evolved to be Whales) because in whales they are vesitigial since modern whales never used smell? how does that follow logically?

 

[Loudmouth]

oh So these psuedeogenes were like inherited from when they were terrestrials (and evolved to be Whales) because in whales they are vesitigial since modern whales never used smell? how does that follow logically?

They are vestigial because they don't produce any olfactory receptors in whales, and they share clear DNA homology with functional olfactory genes in other mammal species. Why would a designer take genes from one species, break them, and then put the broken genes into another species?

 

[MikeEnders]

They are vestigial because they don't produce any olfactory receptors in whales, and they share clear DNA homology with functional olfactory genes in other mammal species. Why would a designer take genes from one species, break them, and then put the broken genes into another species?

because he didn't . They became broken in most whales as whales. Which as you have so shown is the whole thinking and why you, TO and all the darwinist that make this argument are wrong. Whales apparently did have use for smell. Sorry

 

[Loudmouth]

because he didn't . They became broken in most whales as whales.

Then they would have needed to break deep in the ancestry of all cetaceans, from bottlenose dolphins to blue whales.

"Evolution of the OR gene superfamily in toothed whales (Odontoceti) featured a multitude of independent pseudogenization events, supporting anatomical evidence that odontocetes have lost their olfactory sense. We explored the phylogenetic utility of OR pseudogenes in Cetacea, concentrating on delphinids (oceanic dolphins), the product of a rapid evolutionary radiation that has been difficult to resolve in previous studies of mitochondrial DNA sequences. Phylogenetic analyses of OR pseudogenes using both gene-tree reconciliation and supermatrix methods yielded fully resolved, consistently supported relationships among members of four delphinid subfamilies."
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/574.short

The phylogenetic signal demonstrates that these genes were broken in a distant common ancestor shared by very divergent cetaceans.

The ID explanation just doesn't work. These genes were never a working part of any living species of cetacean. They show clear phylogenetic signals of becoming pseudogenes well before the emergence of the modern cetacean species.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hmmm.. is this the goal of creationism in general?

No, YE Creationists are very sincere.
If you spend any time around them
you'd know they rarely have a personal
agenda born from hate.

 

[MikeEnders]

The ID explanation just doesn't work. These genes were never a working part of any living species of cetacean.

Do tell. Thats a bit of a blanket statement based on what you think you know. How can anyone say that Whales never had or used smell?

 

[MikeEnders]

The phylogenetic signal demonstrates that these genes were broken in a distant common ancestor shared by very divergent cetaceans.

Do tell broken in a distant ancestor eh? Proof positive. Not another whale. So ahem why do we have whales swimming around right now like this (I think it s about time to put your claims out of their misery.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article...e-smell-quite-well-actually.html#.VZ1mGflViko

three years I believe after your papers makes it claim. since according to you, your paper and your beloved TO they are not supposed to exist and operate in modern whales??

See I was just waiting for you to spout off the same old darwinist claim of how olfactory psuedogenes in whales are such a great example of proof of darwinism (and ahem couldn't work in ID or creationism)because I wanted to demonstrate how Darwinist blow smoke up the chimney and out their ears based on nonsense they claim to know for fact but don't

I already as I said knew it was a pile of baloney because I already knew that there are in fact modern whales RIGHT NOW swimming around with what you said they would never need or use.

Maybe you can redefine vestigial to save yourself? or will you try convergence in just that species of whales?????

Let the MOTHER OF ALL handwaving begin!!!!!

 

[[serious]]

Simply rambling rhetoric doesn't have me running either if you noticed. Any movement you see is me shaking with laughter at you interjecting in defense of something you know nothing about

Rambling? I'm still trying to get a specific example of a specific error on the talkorigins whale page. I'm not deviating from that one request. I'm also still waiting for an answer on it. I know you've asserted "it's wrong!" without giving any detail about what is wrong or why, and in an earlier post you've said "It's tripe!" without saying what specifically in the page is tripe or why.

I'm looking to engage in an actual discussion. If you have some specific thing you take issue with on the site, lets' talk about it. I'm interested in honest discussion.

 

[MikeEnders]

Rambling? I'm still trying to get a specific example of a specific error on the talkorigins whale page. I'm not deviating from that one request. I'm also still waiting for an answer on it. I know you've asserted "it's wrong!" without giving any detail about what is wrong or why, and in an earlier post you've said "It's tripe!" without saying what specifically in the page is tripe or why.

Get some new glasses dude. That rant of rhetoric is comical after my last post just showed it in spades. What do you want? Diagrams???? Great timing on your part for me though. Just shows more Darwinist rhetoric. You didn't even read the thread before responding again.

 

[[serious]]

ROFL my bet is you are clueless as to what the word vestigial means. HInt: you cannot claim that a creature that has functional hearing has vestigial hearing nerves

Unless you just slipped and fell and are not thinking properly I mean

ROFL my bet is you are clueless as to what the word vestigial means. HInt: you cannot claim that a creature that has functional hearing has vestigial hearing nerves

Unless you just slipped and fell and are not thinking properly I mean

I think you misread the page. The talkorigins page says, "Modern whales have only vestigial olfactory nerves"

Olfactory refers to the sense of smell, not the sense of hearing.

If I misunderstood what you were referencing, please let me know.

​

 

[[serious]]

Get some new glasses dude. That rant of rhetoric is comical after my last post just showed it in spades. What do you want? Diagrams???? Great timing on your part for me though. Just shows more Darwinist rhetoric

If you think diagrams would be of use, I would be more than happy to look at them. If you would like further explanation of what the talkorigins page is discussing, i would likewise be more than happy to do what I can to clarify.

 

[MikeEnders]

I think you misread the page. The talkorigins page says, "Modern whales have only vestigial olfactory nerves"

Olfactory refers to the sense of smell, not the sense of hearing.

Seriously Dude. Please learn to read. That was a hint as an example of what cannot be claimed. An example is not the argument. You are informing no one of anything they did not know .If you even bothered to read the last two pages you would have seen me referring to smell repeatedly.

​

 

[Loudmouth]

Do tell.

First, you have the complete absence of any anatomical apparatus in some whales, and a strongly reduced apparatus in others:

"Olfactory structures are entirely lacking in adult odontocetes, implying a complete loss of the olfactory sense (Oelschläger, 1992). Mysticetes possess a highly reduced although intact olfactory apparatus, and anecdotal behavioral observations suggest that baleen whales might retain some sense of airborne smell (Cave, 1988; Oelschläger, 1992)."
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/574.long

So why give olfactory genes to a species that doesn't have a nose? A designer would not do that, at least a normal designer. It's like giving a car a jet engine in the back that isn't hooked up to anything, and just sits there gathering dust.

Also, phylogenetic analysis done in that same paper shows that the mutations that produced the pseudogenes happened in the common ancestor of those species, not separately in each species. If the pseudogenes were produced independently in each species, then we would expect to see different mutations in each species. For some genes, we see the same knockout mutations in ALL CETACEANS, from blue whales to dolphins:

" Phylogenetic analyses of individual orthologue groups suggested that various OR gene lineages were silenced at different periods in cetacean history (Fig. 4). In some cases, such as OR6M1, all cetaceans sampled for a particular orthologue shared a common ancestral frameshift indel (Fig. 4b); a similar pattern was observed in OR10J1, OR10J2, and OR13J1."
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/574.long

So why would a designer put the same broken gene in all cetaceans?

 

[MikeEnders]

If you would like further explanation of what the talkorigins page is discussing, i would likewise be more than happy to do what I can to clarify.

By all means lets start here

"Modern whales have only vestigial olfactory nerves."

and explain to the class how Modern whales have ONLY vestigial olfactory nerves since the modern Bowhead Whale has functional ones that allow them to smell

But wait!!!!! first let me get some popcorn and a soda first.

 

[MikeEnders]

So why would a designer put the same broken gene in all cetaceans?

Oh I get it. SO your claim is going to be that this is not a whale

http://www.newscientist.com/article...e-smell-quite-well-actually.html#.VZ1mGflViko

Apparently more popcorn is going to be needed.

 

[Loudmouth]

Do tell broken in a distant ancestor eh? Proof positive. Not another whale.

The common ancestor of all cetacean species, from dolphins to blue whales.

" Phylogenetic analyses of individual orthologue groups suggested that various OR gene lineages were silenced at different periods in cetacean history (Fig. 4). In some cases, such as OR6M1, all cetaceans sampled for a particular orthologue shared a common ancestral frameshift indel (Fig. 4b); a similar pattern was observed in OR10J1, OR10J2, and OR13J1."
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/574.long

So ahem why do we have whales swimming around right now like this (I think it s about time to put your claims out of their misery.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article...e-smell-quite-well-actually.html#.VZ1mGflViko

Why would a designer give all of the cetaceans the same broken smelling gene?

I already as I said knew it was a pile of baloney because I already knew that there are in fact modern whales RIGHT NOW swimming around with what you said they would never need or use.

They aren't using the olfactory receptor pseudogenes to smell, which is the whole point of the argument. Not only that, but those pseudogenes are broken in exactly the same way, something that wouldn't happen if these pseudogenes were independently knocked out in each species. That only happens through common ancestry.