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Another Eucharistic miracle under investigation.

Discussion in 'The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics' started by Mountainmike, May 11, 2017.

  1. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A special interest of mine,

    Another Eucharistic miracle is under investigation in Argentina on April 11
    Holy Week Eucharistic Miracle Under Investigation in Argentina

    It will be fascinating to see if forensics confirm the usual pattern observed at for example, tixtla, sokolka , Buenos Aires, legnica ( and even old ones such as lanciano, with exception of white cells)

    Which are:

    Real human blood
    Heart myocardium cells
    With white cells showing both trauma and life.
    These die and lyse within hours in vitro.

    If so it will be yet another piece of evidence supporting transubstantiation, as the mode of real presence, and with it disproving Darwin using his own words, and also all the Protestant , even orthodox, interpretations of Eucharist.

    We alone have the truth.
     
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  2. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    Huh? I don't get it.
     
  3. Robinus

    Robinus Member

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    My faith in the Eucharistic presence of Jesus is based on the words of Jesus who is the Truth , not on "eucharistic miracles" .

    In the translation of Thomas Aquinas' hymn "Adoro te devote" by Gerard Manley Hopkins we read

    "Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived:
    How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
    What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
    Truth himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true."
     
  4. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Darwin states in his work ( I paraphrase from memory) " if any instance of life were found that was not the result of successive small changes, it would disprove my theory"

    Life from no life - bread to flesh -meets darwins OWN test for disproving his theory!
     
  5. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    I think you are taking Darwins words out of context

    This is a case of supernatural wonder not the natural progression of life
    We can respect science as a tool given to us from God and still recognize times when He works outside of natural sciences
     
  6. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Jesus' miracles on earth involved healing and reconciliation.

    This is just flashy.

    Sort of like roses in the snow in Guadalupe.

    When you look at intercessory prayer requests how many ask for bleeding hosts or roses in the snow.

    It's almost insulting to think that God would hear the prayer of a child with cancer and say, "here's some winter roses instead."

    And I don't think he does.
     
  7. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    Jesus had Peter pay a temple tax by getting a coin out of a fish
    He also walked on water
    both of those could be counted as being "flashy"

    another thing is, God is outside of our understanding of Time
    so it is not like He is ignoring the kids with cancer while He makes winter roses or bleeding Hosts
    God can multi-task lol
     
  8. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    He walked on water to calm the storm.
     
  9. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    I feel kind of bad about admitting it, but I have significant doubts about stuff like Eucharistic hosts that literally turn into human flesh with DNA and/or blood.

    Oddly enough, I am a strong believer in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. A lot of these miracles just seem hard to swallow for me (That isn't meant to be a pun, but on that note I do hope these are just kept on display and no one tries to consume them like regular consecrated hosts and consecrated wine- and I don't think they do try. I've never heard of anyone consuming them that way, at least.).

    Anyway, as far as I know even the most stringent conservative interpretations of the rules don't require Catholics to believe this stuff. Transubstantiation, yes, a specific miracle of this nature, no. Vatican investigations just look into whether something is "worthy of belief" or not, rather than deeming them mandatory parts of the faith. So, I'm on okay ground having my doubts there, even though I feel a little odd about it.

    Similarly, I don't tend to believe in Marian apparitions, where the Church similarly doesn't mandate belief, but rather looks into whether something is worthy of belief or not, or an obvious fraud or inconsistent with the Catholic faith messaging wise or whatever.

    Now, of course, one of the things about this kind of stuff is that we do kind of have to accept that some people involved in this have been named Saints, have parishes named after them, etc.. And of course Popes, including our beloved Pope Francis, seem to believe. I think the Pope is actually in Fatima right now.

    I guess one big warning sign for me is that many apparitions of Mary don't seem to match her biblical character. I like her in the bible, I have difficulty identifying with the way she is said to act in apparations. Sometimes it seems like they take her from this shy gentle loving but loyal and brave Jewish girl and woman into something a little closer to a wrathful God type (Don't take that too literally, just a very loose metaphor that wouldn't hold up to too much scrutiny) who is really into scaring people about hell and who has very definite opinions on the Soviet Union. ;) I suppose people can change in a couple thousand years, its just not something I closely identify with.

    I like the rosary, but not the Fatima prayer (Which is still an optional addition, though I've found most groups use it).

    Anyway, I do appreciate that these things have kind of become cultural touchstones for Catholics, and part of urban legend. I feel positively predisposed to them when I just stick to thinking about them on that level. The Miracle of the Sun and such is a good story. The only qualm I have at all there, when I just look at it as culture rather than something literal, is whether it is yanking us back towards a stronger concept of hell, when I would like to see us move beyond it into having a stronger concept of grace (But I'm a universalist [small u, not the religious group]- I believe everyone eventually winds up in heaven- or would like to believe that, anyway- so I would tend to say that. ;) ).

    I'm certainly not knocking anyone for believing in these Eucharistic miracles or Marian apparitions, though. Who knows, you may be right. I'm not perfect. I get things wrong sometimes. Its definitely something a lot of people I admire believe, and certainly allowable and even encourged by the Church. I'm glad that they are sticking to saying that the belief in these individual things are optional, though.

    My confirmation Saint was Thomas the Apostle- who doubted news of Christ's resurection until he could feel the marks left from the crucifixion and the spear with his own hands on the risen Christ. As it turns out, the bishop didn't read the name aloud, but I picked one anyway. I'm counting it. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  10. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    I'm with you F&B. I had never heard the O My Jesus prayer in the rosary until I moved to the South, and I said lots if rosaries when nuns wore habits and talking about the fires of hell was more popular.

    I was told Mary demanded it on Fatima and I asked how come my Dominican teachers in habits never knew that.

    I just try to ignore it when it's said. I still don't know it by heart. I have a mental block again st all this rosary tampering.
     
  11. Robinus

    Robinus Member

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    When I pray the Rosary privately I do not pray the Fatima Prayer .

    However when I am praying the Rosary with others and the Fatima Prayer is used I don't have any problems with it .

    We pray , " O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy. "

    I look at it with an optimistic , hopeful eye . "LEAD ALL SOULS TO HEAVEN" . I like that bit .
     
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