Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[Der Alte]

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..."Also, by introducing four types of seed, Yeshua employed a common Rabbinic tactic
used to describe different types of disciples. In the Mishnah Pirket Avot 5:18, it reads:
There are four kinds of qualities of those who sit at the feet of the sages: they are
like a sponge, a funnel, a strainer, or a sieve. A sponge soaks up everything; a
funnel takes it in at one end and lets it out at the other; a strainer lets the wine pass
through but retains the lees; a sieve lets out the bran and retains the fine flour.”"
Understanding Yeshua's parables from a Hebrew Perspective also see the talmud passage here: Pirkei Avot 5:15

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I agree the seed/sower parable is similar to the quote above. Jesus was a Jew and I'm certain He would have heard many Jewish teachers using similar teaching techniques.

Matthew 13:13 could also just mean that they didn't understand the parable not that they didn't think it was a parable. However, I believe you have the context backwards for that verse, parables were used to get at peoples hearts essentially reveal not conceal Isaiah 6:8-13 Isaiah 6 Brenton Septuagint Translation Notice that Jesus is quoting the Septuagint (which agrees more with older documents like the dead sea scrolls) here:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
(Matthew 13 NKJV)
9Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive.
10For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
(Isaiah 6 Brenton Septuagint)
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6 NKJV)
"And I said why should I?"
You don't have to do anything for me on this forum I said "I would be most interested" if you could show that the article was inaccurate. I'm trying to learn things but it seems by this statement you are more interested in debate. I won't rely on wikipedia but if I have nothing else on a particular topic I tend to go with it:
"A recent essay by American historian Roy Rosenzweig examined the effects of Wikipedia on historical writing and its credibility as a reliable source. He compared entries in Wikipedia with more well-regarded resources and surprisingly he found a similar error rate! While Wikipedia’s anonymous, open-source system may cause concern about vandalism and misinformation, his tests have found that serious mistakes are not only much less common than one might expect, but are typically corrected within a matter of hours." Can you trust the historical accuracy of Wikipedia? - Technology news for museums - Canada.ca
"Context again. Why did I say what I did?"
That's why I asked if you were being pejorative. I still don't know why you included the comment about it being 100 years old though.
I consider them reliable on Jewish apocalyptic literature which they see in the book of revelation I don't think they need to be knowledgeable about the NT to recognize their own literature and themes.
"Your posts did not indicate that you knew the context. Jer 19 does not contradict my post."
I said "here's some evidence you might find interesting" I think it's evidence that if this happened in history (and it was a hugely significant event of destruction) that they might still associate this valley with destruction and slaughter. (since they called it "the valley of slaughter"

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"You should read the context of your proof texts before you post. The one on the cloud is an angel. I don't know what powers or capabilities an angel has."
I did actually read the immediate context but it doesn't look like you did. It didn't say the one with a sickle in the verses I referred to was an angel just "like the Son of man" Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 14:14-17 - New King James Version

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You apparently didn't read vs. 19. Now do you understand why I'm a bit snarky?

Rev 14:15
(15) Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."...
Rev 14:19
(19) The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.​

Maybe this will help you understand where I am coming from. I belong to a major evangelical Trinitarian denomination, I have been at this forum for almost 2 decades and I have been debating with members of heterodox groups all that time. A favorite practice of all such groups is quoting scripture out-of-context trying to support their false doctrines. When I see scripture quoted out-of-context as you have done I no longer consider it a friendly, serious discussion.

This is metaphorical language that goes back to language associated with the kingdom of heaven and the harvest.

Okay. Previously you thought the one on the cloud was a person.

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There are differences between almost all verses, the relevant things are the phrases you are saying mean forever. People had to pass through to see that it was desolate. If we take revelation literally there will be a new heavens a new earth so the burning pitch and smoke and desolation cannot be there forever in the new perfection.

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People would not have to pass through a region to know it was desolate. All they would have to do is pass near it and look across.
.....As for "new heavens a new earth so the burning pitch and smoke and desolation cannot be there forever in the new perfection"

Revelation 21:3-8
(3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
(4) 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
(5) He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
(6) He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
(7) Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
(8) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."​

Vs. 4 "no more death' or mourning or crying or pain"
Vs. 5 "everything new."
Vs. 6 "It is done."
Vs. 8 Eight groups of people thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
This is one continuous narrative. Parts of the narrative cannot be taken out and said to have happened previously.

"The lamb can be "the word of God" and lamb as the same time in the same way Jesus was Himself and the lamb of God at the same time."
I mean I understand that it literally says he was the word in John and the word became flesh but this isn't a literal usage of "word" look at the usages it has: 3056 - Search the Apostolic Bible Polyglot

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Before cherry picking verses trying to prove me wrong perhaps you should first read the complete context.
. . .
Are you serious?
. . .
Seriously, wiki?
" (and much other snarkiness)
Anyways, I'm not going to put up with the condescending way you are acting towards me and your behavior of combing through my posts for insignificant things you can twist and sneer at so I'm not going to respond to you anymore.

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See my explanation above.

 

[Viren]

You may be confusing "imperishable soul" with eternal life. Souls and spirits cannot be annihilated, but they can either be in the eternal presence of God and Christ (eternal life) or they can be in the eternal torments in Hell, separated from God eternally (the second death).

A person has to be born again to have an imperishable soul otherwise they are like grass that withers.

1Peter 1:23.

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Also, according to 2 Peter 2:6 the ungodly will be burned to ash.

"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly"

 

[DeaconDean]

Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion milleniums than cease to be for ever and ever and ever.

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

You miss the point.

Scripture says, rather, leads us to believe in "eternal punishment".

Where the worm dieth not, bitting the tongue" etc.

If Annihilationism is fact, why be saved?

If after 1,000,000 years, or 100,000,000 years, there will come an end to all the pain and torment, and an "escape" is provided in annihilationaim.

Why not just live as we want to. After all, sooner or later, there will be an "escape" to punishment.

Eternal then, does not mean "eternal".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Micah888]

A person has to be born again to have an imperishable soul otherwise they are like grass that withers.

Scripture says otherwise. The unsaved have imperishable souls (Luke 16:22,23):

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Sheol/Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[Der Alte]

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A person has to be born again to have an imperishable soul otherwise they are like grass that withers.
1Peter 1:23.
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

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Peter is quoting from Psal 37 which is not referring to man's eternal fate but was referring to what God would and did do to enemies that attacked Israel.

Psalms 37:2
(2) for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.
Psalms 37:10
(10) A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.
Psalms 37:14
(14) The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright.
Psalms 37:15
(15) But their swords will pierce their own hearts, and their bows will be broken.
Psalms 37:17
(17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

Vs. 10 the righteous will not be looking in paradise for the place of the wicked but here on earth.
Vs. 15 the wicked attack Israel but will be pierced with their own swords and their bows broken, not eternal fate.
Vs. 17 the arms of the wicked will be broken not eternal punishment.

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Also, according to 2 Peter 2:6 the ungodly will be burned to ash.
"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly"

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Was the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah their eternal fate or will they be resurrected and judged?

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture says otherwise. The unsaved have imperishable souls (Luke 16:22,23):
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Sheol/Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

There are two other passages in the OT which speak of the dead in sheol moving, speaking etc.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional.
.....For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[Micah888]

Was the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah their eternal fate or will they be resurrected and judged?

Revelation 20 has the answer. And Christ further confirmed this by saying that some unbelieving cities of His time would face a more severe judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah.

LUKE 10
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell [Hades].

Hades is not the final fate either, and again one should turn to Revelation 20.

 

[Der Alte]

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Revelation 20 has the answer. And Christ further confirmed this by saying that some unbelieving cities of His time would face a more severe judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah.
LUKE 10
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell [Hades].
Hades is not the final fate either, and again one should turn to Revelation 20.

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Your post just made me realize in vs. 12 Jesus refers to a punishment worse than death. Jesus also refers to a punishment worse than death in the following verses.

●“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
●“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

●Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

 

[Viren]

Scripture says otherwise. The unsaved have imperishable souls (Luke 16:22,23):

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Sheol/Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

As it states in Luke 15:3 "Jesus told them this parable" This scripture is part of a series of parables. Lazarus represents Gentiles who accepted Jesus's message as opposed to the Jews who rejected it. Abraham's bosom is when a person has intimacy with God and enjoys his favor. Hades is when a person is far from God and doesn't enjoy God's favor. This why Jonah was in Hades while in the belly of a fish. He was running away from God.

 

[Viren]

A person has to be born again to have an imperishable soul otherwise they are like grass that withers.
1Peter 1:23.
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
Peter is quoting from Psal 37 which is not referring to man's eternal fate but was referring to what God would and did do to enemies that attacked Israel.

Psalms 37:2
(2) for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.
Psalms 37:10
(10) A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.
Psalms 37:14
(14) The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright.
Psalms 37:15
(15) But their swords will pierce their own hearts, and their bows will be broken.
Psalms 37:17
(17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

Vs. 10 the righteous will not be looking in paradise for the place of the wicked but here on earth.
Vs. 15 the wicked attack Israel but will be pierced with their own swords and their bows broken, not eternal fate.
Vs. 17 the arms of the wicked will be broken not eternal punishment.
Also, according to 2 Peter 2:6 the ungodly will be burned to ash.
"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly"
Was the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah their eternal fate or will they be resurrected and judged?

Peter used the scripture in psalms 37 to describe a person being born again of imperishable seed. Peter relates what happened to Israel's enemies to those who aren't born again.

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was God's eternal or final judgement on the city. Peter connects what happened to the city as an example what will happened to the ungodly at their final judgement. They will be turned to ashes.

 

[Der Alte]

Peter used the scripture in psalms 37 to describe a person being born again of imperishable seed. Peter relates what happened to Israel's enemies to those who aren't born again.
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was God's eternal or final judgement on the city. Peter connects what happened to the city as an example what will happened to the ungodly at their final judgement. They will be turned to ashes.

I don't think so.

Matthew 25:31-32
(31) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
(32) All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Hebrews 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Revelation 20:11-13
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

 

[Micah888]

Lazarus represents Gentiles who accepted Jesus's message as opposed to the Jews who rejected it.

This is about as far-fetched as one can get.

 

[Der Alte]

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As it states in Luke 15:3 "Jesus told them this parable" This scripture is part of a series of parables. Lazarus represents Gentiles who accepted Jesus's message as opposed to the Jews who rejected it. Abraham's bosom is when a person has intimacy with God and enjoys his favor. Hades is when a person is far from God and doesn't enjoy God's favor. This why Jonah was in Hades while in the belly of a fish. He was running away from God.

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If one googles "Rich man and Lazarus" they will find many explanations of the story, probably a few thousand. All claiming that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Which one of the many is correct?
.....There are several reasons it is not a parable. Unlike most of the unquestioned parables it is not introduced as a parable and it was not explained later to the disciples.
.....In all of the unquestioned parables Jesus explains or clarifies an unclear Biblical truth by comparing it to ordinary events which His audience was familiar with. For example, seeds and sower, bridegrooms and bridesmaids, shepherd and sheep, widows and coins, landowner and tenants, a father and a wayward son. All of these events have happened at sometime in history.
.....In all the unquestioned parables all of the characters are anonymous, a certain man, a certain widow, a certain shepherd etc. In the story of Lazarus the only two characters are named, Lazarus and Abraham. Since neither Jesus nor Luke introduced the story as a parable and Jesus did not explain it to His disciples, if Abraham was not in the place and say the words that Jesus stated then Jesus was lying.
.....All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of the rich man and Lazarus considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[Micah888]

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was God's eternal or final judgement on the city. Peter connects what happened to the city as an example what will happened to the ungodly at their final judgement. They will be turned to ashes.

That is not what Peter says about Sodom and Gomorrah. He says THEY WERE turned into ashes. Here is what we read: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes [past tense] condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.

We know that Sodom and Gomorrah were turned to ashes with supernatural fire. Which means that the inhabitants were also turned to ashes, and MORE PRECISELY, their bodies were turned into ashes. But what about their souls and spirits? You wish to ignore the non-material aspects of sinners, but the Bible reveals that human beings consist of bodies, souls, and spirits. So where did the souls and spirits of the wicked dead from Sodom and Gomorrah go?

The Bible answers that question succinctly: The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God. (Psa 9:17)

Where is Sheol/Hades? In the heart of the earth, or in the lower parts of the earth, and today all the unsaved, the unbelieving, and the ungodly go there in order to await their final judgment. And here is what happens at the final judgment:

REVELATION 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Only those who are justified by grace through faith (in this case Lot) were written in the Book of Life. But the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah -- who are presently in Sheol/Hades -- will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Viren]

As it states in Luke 15:3 "Jesus told them this parable" This scripture is part of a series of parables. Lazarus represents Gentiles who accepted Jesus's message as opposed to the Jews who rejected it. Abraham's bosom is when a person has intimacy with God and enjoys his favor. Hades is when a person is far from God and doesn't enjoy God's favor. This why Jonah was in Hades while in the belly of a fish. He was running away from God.
If one googles "Rich man and Lazarus" they will find many explanations of the story, probably a few thousand. All claiming that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Which one of the many is correct?
.....There are several reasons it is not a parable. Unlike most of the unquestioned parables it is not introduced as a parable and it was not explained later to the disciples.
.....In all of the unquestioned parables Jesus explains or clarifies an unclear Biblical truth by comparing it to ordinary events which His audience was familiar with. For example, seeds and sower, bridegrooms and bridesmaids, shepherd and sheep, widows and coins, landowner and tenants, a father and a wayward son. All of these events have happened at sometime in history.
.....In all the unquestioned parables all of the characters are anonymous, a certain man, a certain widow, a certain shepherd etc. In the story of Lazarus the only two characters are named, Lazarus and Abraham. Since neither Jesus nor Luke introduced the story as a parable and Jesus did not explain it to His disciples, if Abraham was not in the place and say the words that Jesus stated then Jesus was lying.
.....All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of the rich man and Lazarus considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

To me when the scripture talks about one drop of water quenching Lazarus's thirst it suggests a parable. Also, if taken literally people in heaven could have conversations with their family members or friends in hell. This doesn't fit with the Bible's description of heaven where their will be no tears. Also, Jonah was in Hades while in the belly of a fish. This suggests Hades is a deprived state not a physical location. The Bible does talk about the continued life of the soul after the death of the body, but only those who have been born again of imperishable seed.

Also, I'm more interested in studying scripture rather than the opinions of the church fathers. To me this is how the truth of scripture can be distorted over time. Scripture is my foundation.

 

[ClementofA]

If Annihilationism is fact, why be saved?

Your question doesn't make much sense. Did you mean to ask, If annihilationism were true, what would be the motivation for you (or anyone) to be saved? The answer is, no one wants to cease to exist. Everyone wants to live forever in bliss. Only a fool would sacrifice endless heaven for a few moments of pleasure. As i said:

"Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion millenniums than cease to be for ever and ever and ever."

Do you only live a Christian life out of fear of endless torments? Would you have no fear of being annihilated forever?

If after 1,000,000 years, or 100,000,000 years, there will come an end to all the pain and torment, and an "escape" is provided in annihilationaim.

Why not just live as we want to. After all, sooner or later, there will be an "escape" to punishment.

You just stated why. Millions of years of torments. Who would want that, even if they're saved after it for eternity.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[ClementofA]

All of the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of the rich man and Lazarus considered it to be factual.

When i quoted a church father you said "Irrelevant not scripture":

Irrelevant not scripture.

Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[DeaconDean]

Your question doesn't make much sense. Did you mean to ask, If annihilationism were true, what would be the motivation for you (or anyone) to be saved? The answer is, no one wants to cease to exist. Everyone wants to live forever in bliss. Only a fool would sacrifice endless heaven for a few moments of pleasure. As i said:

"Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion millenniums than cease to be for ever and ever and ever."

Do you only live a Christian life out of fear of endless torments? Would you have no fear of being annihilated forever?



You just stated why. Millions of years of torments. Who would want that, even if they're saved after it for eternity.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Go back a read post #1.

"the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment."

This statement makes it a fact.

My statement was correct.

To the unsaved, an eternity in heaven, or, a few millennia in pain, then nothing.

Just live your life as you please, there is an "escape clause" provided in the theory of annihilationism.

Why rob a convenience store for a couple of hundred dollars and face 7 years in prision, when you can rob a bank, and face the same amount of time, and then be released from prison?

I can lie, cheat, steal, swindle, commit adultery, murder, etc., for as long as I want to, without fear of spending all eternity in the "Lake of Fire". Sooner or later, when my debt has been paid, I'll "escape" eternal damnation.

There is no motivation whatsoever, in the doctrine of annililationism to be born-again, saved, to begin with.

In fact, if it is true as JW's teach, why not convert, and hope:

1. you are counted among the 144,000
2. you get your own planet, and are able to make "little gods"

I reject the very notion of "annihilationism".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Micah888]

Also, I'm more interested in studying scripture rather than the opinions of the church fathers.

Well then you should believe what the Bible teaches -- eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, for all those not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

So either (a) you have not really studied Scripture or (b) you pick and choose what you will believe and what you will reject.

 

[ClementofA]

There is no motivation whatsoever, in the doctrine of annililationism to be born-again, saved, to begin with.

I disagree & already stated why:

If Annihilationism is fact, why be saved?

Your question doesn't make much sense. Did you mean to ask, If annihilationism were true, what would be the motivation for you (or anyone) to be saved? The answer is, no one wants to cease to exist. Everyone wants to live forever in bliss. Only a fool would sacrifice endless heaven for a few moments of pleasure. As i said:

"Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion millenniums than cease to be for ever and ever and ever."

Do you only live a Christian life out of fear of endless torments? Would you have no fear of being annihilated forever?

If after 1,000,000 years, or 100,000,000 years, there will come an end to all the pain and torment, and an "escape" is provided in annihilationaim.

Why not just live as we want to. After all, sooner or later, there will be an "escape" to punishment.

You just stated why. Millions of years of torments. Who would want that, even if they're saved after it for eternity.

How is it that going to "hell" for God knows how long doesn't matter, so "there is no point" in universalists "telling them" (i.e. unbelievers) the gospel?

If you had a child being tormented in fire, would you say there is no point in saving her, because the fire trucks will be there eventually to save her anyway?

Scripture makes it clear that choosing God in this life is the wise decision & rejecting Him is foolish. So clearly there will be "hell to pay" for the wicked & there is reason to warn them of the wrath of God that is coming upon them if they don't repent & believe the gospel.


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?