The fact of the matter is that the most famous verse in the Bible -- John 3:16 connects the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross with the existence of eternal damnation (represented by that word "perish" -- whose proper meaning has already been presented).
I said:
There's other lexicons that don't connect the word perish to enternal torment
You said in response:
It really does not matter, since what we need to do is look at the Scriptures. Of course if you have your mind set on what you wish to believe, rather that what is given for us to believe, none of the Scriptures will convince you.
Jesus said that Hell was created for the devil and his angels, but having the entire Bible before us, we also see that Hell is for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)
REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
1 So something is "the fact of the matter" and then "doesn't really matter?"
2 We are talking about scripture, the meaning of the word in John 3:16 is part of the meaning of the verse.
3 Do you think the views opposing yours are just people that have their mind set on things? If so, why are you arguing with us?
4 Saying a hand that is cut off does not "perish" because it still exists is like saying people don't die because the decay of their bodies doesn't violate the law of conservation of energy.
5 Here's my view on Rev 14, note the beast (if we go by Daniel is symbol for an empire or a worldly system of some sort it can't be literally tormented, as death (an process) and hades (a place in greek mythology) can't be literally burned. Also hades in the bible just means the grave (but it is what is usually translated as hell) take a look at when the new testament quotes the old testament:
ESV
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Psa 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.
Also note the Jews consider Revelation to be Jewish apocalyptic literature (and they don't believe in hell) "but the apocalypse has become especially important to Jewish students since it has been discovered by Vischer (see bibliography) that the main apocalypse actually belongs to Jewish apocalyptic literature."
REVELATION (BOOK OF) - JewishEncyclopedia.com
. . .
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
While their torment is continual here, it does not specify how long a duration it is. The smoke rises forever, but that is metaphorical language also used elsewhere. See for example the parallel description in Revelation 18:18 and Revelation 19:3, the smoke of Babylon is described in both places to be rising forever even though Babylon is ultimately destroyed, and doesn't burn forever. The smoke could symbolize a hyperbole that the destruction was so great that the smoke rises forever or that it symbolizes an eternal remembrance of the destruction by the smoke being an eternal memorial. The lake of fire (which this may refer to) along with Gehenna is probably a real place. (Gehenna is the place outside of Jerusalem where they burned their trash)
And the lake of fire is also probably a real place on earth near the dead sea. (see:
Where Is the Lake of Fire? ) With these three concepts, none on their own characterize eternal torment.
In fact Revelation 14 is a quote from Isaiah 34:9-10 about the judgement of Edom:
Isaiah 34
9Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
And this verse relates this future Judgement of Edom to the overthrow of sodom and Gomorah:
Jeremiah 49
17 “Edom also shall be an astonishment;
Everyone who goes by it will be astonished
And will hiss at all its plagues.
18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors,” says the Lord,
“No one shall remain there,
Nor shall a son of man dwell in it.
Deuteronomy 29
23 ‘The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath.’
Genesis 19
24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
The reason I point this out, is that Sodom and Gomorah is said to be destroyed by eternal fire:
Jude 1
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
One way to resolve this problem of "why aren't the fires of Sodom still burning?" is to say that the fire is not actually eternal, but infact a metaphor for eternal consumption. Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed, and that destruction was eternal (the people never came back or were revived), it was consumed, and that consumption wasn't reversed (eternal consumption). That is why I think it is said to be destroyed by eternal metaphorical fire or... eternal consumption.
There are other examples of hyperbolic or metaphorical language in scripture such as this. When the word "hated" is used in the old testament it often means "loved less."
Also This passage from Daniel needs also to be considered:
NKJV
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.<H01860>
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
So yet anouther punishment is mentioned, that of contempt. The only other time this word is used is in this passage.
KJV
Isa 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring H1860 unto all flesh.
Now here we have two types of consuming forces mentioned. "Fire" and "worm." One should notice that both of these things together are not possible: worms cannot survive in fire. When we have incompatible statements we can resolve the statements by taking them metaphorically and see what is common between. The thing in common seems to be consumption, both worm and fire consume and destroy. The shame can be read as eternally shamed or that their memory is looked on with contempt, so this can coincide with their consumption. Although I find it quite interesting that the Bible would even bother mentioning shame and not mention eternal torment, since the latter is of so much more import than the former. I see a tension there that can be resolved by a metaphorical reading.
I think that those who are saved will have eternal life but the people who are lost will probably cease to exist. (although I think it's pretty hard to interpret the rich symbolism that is in the Bible about that, it wasn't clearly written and I think it's something we can speculate about but that we won't really know until we get there) Deuteronomy 29:29
