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Featured annihilation and eternal torment are the same spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Noxot, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Is that a fact? You said three forms of capital punishment. Here's a direct quote from Jewish Encyclopedia.
    Modes of Punishment.
    Only in comparatively few instances is the particular mode of death incurred by the commission of a crime prescribed. Blasphemy, idolatry, Sabbath-breaking, witchcraft, prostitution by a betrothed virgin, or deceiving her husband at marriage as to her chastity (Deut. xxii. 21), and the rebellious son are, according to the Pentateuchal laws, to be punished with death by stoning; bigamous marriage with a wife's mother and the prostitution of a priest's daughter are punished by burning; communal apostasy is punished by the sword. With reference to all other capital offenses, the law ordains that the perpetrator shall die a violent death, occasionally adding the expression, "His (their) blood shall be upon him (them)." This expression, as we shall see presently, post-Biblical legislation applies to death by stoning. The Bible speaks also of hanging (Deut. xxi. 22), but, according to the rabbinical interpretation, not as a mode of execution, but rather of exposure after death (Sanh. vi. 4, 75b).
    CAPITAL PUNISHMENT - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is an argument nowhere stated in scripture.
     
  3. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    Did you read the words that were written or the words that were translated? There is a significant difference.
    Clearly all life comes from God and belongs to Him. What life He gives us, He gives us freely but an eternal life only comes through eating from the tree of Life.
    If a free person refuses to eat then will God force what the person does not wish for upon them?
     
  4. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    Yes He is the light of the world. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. (John 3)
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You've eaten from "the tree of life"?

    In Revelation the leaves of the tree do not give eternal life, but rather are for the healing of the nations.

    Who in the new earth will need healing?

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  6. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart I Am What I Am

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    Yes, exactly, very well said.
     
  7. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    No it isn't.
    Apparently it's you who can not see the difference somehow.
     
  8. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matt 25:46, for example.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

    Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
    Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
    Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
    Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

    eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time,
    or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

    "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

    "In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called
    chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father,
    so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively
    and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

    The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

    Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

    The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

    As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    That includes the murderous Pharisees, Judas Iscariot & all other Jews. And since God is no respecter of person, the Gentiles will also be saved, as the Scriptures reveal.

    Matt 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
    22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
     
  10. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Once God executes his justice arm, there is no freedom of the soul. The soul is condemned eternally, because after death there is no path to God. The only way to reconciliation with God is only through the love of God, that is the cross, whilst the subject lives.

    God's plan is through the love of the cross of Christ, that freedom is only available whilst the subject is in the body, whereas after death the cross is removed and freedom is removed for that subject, if that subject made the choice to be separated eternally from God.

    It is like a thief who says sorry because he got caught and then asks for change because he wants to escape judgement. Freedom is not possible and the story of the rich man and Lazarus certainly supports the removal of freedom to choice after judgement is executed after death.
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the referenced places of reward for the redeemed and punishment for the lost describe different sides of the same coin. understanding one should provided understanding to the other on some level. We describe ourselves as "saved" but saved from what?... the other side of the coin of course! So what can we learn from the "eternal life" aspect to understand what "perish" means?
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So all aborted babies go to hell forever?

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  13. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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  14. rlneub

    rlneub New Member

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    Hell – What is it?
    • (In the KJV this word occurs in O. T. Scriptures, cited below, and is the translation of the Hebrew word "sheol," which signifies the unseen state)
    • In the RSV of O. T. it appears only in
    Isaiah 5:14 ; Isaiah 14:9 Isaiah 14:15 ; Isaiah 28:15 Isaiah 28:18 ; 57:9 ; Ezekiel 31:16 Ezekiel 31:17 ; Ezekiel 32:21 Ezekiel 32:27 ; Amos 9:2 ; Jonah 2:2 ; Habakkuk 2:5
    • In the RSV, "sheol" is translated "lowest pit"
    Deuteronomy 32:22 ; Psalms 86:13
    • And it is translated "pit" in
    Psalms 55:15
    • In the RSV the word "Sheol" itself occurs in the following scriptures
    2 Samuel 22:6 ; Job 11:8 ; 26:6 ; Psalms 9:17 ; 16:10 ; 18:5 ; 116:3 ; 139:8 ; Proverbs 5:5 ; 7:27 ; 9:18 ;Proverbs 15:11 Proverbs 15:24 ; 23:14 ; 27:20
    • "Sheol" is translated "grave" in KJV in
    Genesis 37:35 ; 42:38 ; Genesis 44:29 Genesis 44:31 ; 1 Samuel 2:6 ; 1 Kings 2:6 ; 9 ; Job 7:9 ; 14:13 ; 17:13 ;21:13 ; 24:19 ; Psalms 6:5 ; 30:3 ; 31:17 ; Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:15 ; 88:3 ; 89:48 ; 141:7 ; Proverbs 1:12 ;30:16 ; Ecclesiastes 9:10 ; Solomon 8:6 ; Hosea 13:14
    • In the RSV the Greek word "gehenna" is translated "hell" in the following scriptures
    Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 ; James 3:6
    • The RSV has introduced "Hades," the word found in the Greek text, which signifies the unseen world, in the following scriptures
    Matthew 11:23 ; 16:18 ; Luke 10:15 ; 16:23 ; Acts 2:27 Acts 2:31 ; Revelation 1:18 ; 6:8 ; Revelation 20:13; Revelation 20:14

    In reading the above texts it would seem that hell is either the Grave (sheol or hades) or Gehenna (unquenchable fire).

    So if Hell can also mean the place of unquenchable fire, when does that occur?

    Hell – When is it?

    There are many verses showing that the final event for the wicked is hellfire but there are very few that show the timeline of when. The best timeline can be found in Rev 20:4-6

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

    So from these verses we see those who were dead but resurrected at Christ’s coming. This is called the “First Resurrection”. If there was a first then there must be a second. From verse 5 says the rest of the dead (the wicked) did not live again for 1000 years. (The 1000 years is addressed in Rev 20:1-3)

    So after the 1000 years we have a second resurrection. What happens after this resurrection is described in Rev 20:7-10

    Three other texts support the 2 resurrections. John 5:28-29 says "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION". And again in Luke 14:14 "And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST" implying a resurrection of the unjust. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST.

    This is what happens to “the rest of the dead”

    Rev 20:7-10
    7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Notice: The wicked are NOT burning in hell until AFTER the resurrection. There is no one being tortured in hell today. It is not until after the 1000 years and the wicked dead raised and surround the New Jerusalem then fire comes down from God and DEVOURS them.

    Matthew 13:39-42 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the END OF THE AGE, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THIS AGE. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Job 21:30,32 30 For the wicked are RESERVED for the day of doom; They shall be BROUGHT OUT on the day of wrath. 32 Yet he shall be brought to the grave, And a VIGIL kept over the tomb.

    2 Peter 2:9 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE THE UNJUST UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished:

    2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO SHALL JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom;

    Daniel 1:1-2 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a Time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The wicked do not awaken until after Christ has delivered His people. They awake to everlasting contempt. Thus they were not experiencing everlasting contempt in the grave.

    So the timeline looks like this.
    1. Christ returns
    2. Dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first
    3. The living are then caught up to meet with Christ in the air
    4. The devil is bound 1000 years on earth
    5. During that 1000 years all the righteous reign with Christ
    6. The wicked dead are resurrected
    7. They are judged Rev 20:11-12
    8. They are cast into the lake of fire

    Hell – Where is Hell located?

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the EARTH which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Notice the heavens and earth are reserved for fire!

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the EARTH and the works that are in it will be burned up.

    Again the heavens pass away and the earth melts

    Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a NEW EARTH filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

    Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the FIRST EARTH had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

    The first earth has passed away and God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth

    Psalms 46 4 There is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God,
    The holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High.
    5 God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved;
    God shall help her, just at the break of dawn.
    6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved;
    He uttered His voice, the earth melted.

    Ps 46:6 parallels Rev 20:7-10

    Hell – How long will it last?


    Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

    Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

    Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

    Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

    Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

    PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

    Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life.

    Ez 18:4 "The soul that sinneth, it SHALL DIE."

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth DEATH.

    Notice the wages is death not eternal life of torment.

    1 John 3:15 "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

    Will the murderers have death or eternal life of suffering?

    Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

    Many are troubled over the expression, "everlasting punishment," but notice that it does not say "everlasting punishing."

    Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell."

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    Obadiah 1:15,16 “For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. 16 For as you drank on My holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN.

    Psalm 68:2 As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

    Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

    If the penalty for sin is everlasting life of torment, did Jesus pay this penalty? He did die (the wages of sin is death) but if the wages of sin is everlasting torment then He failed in that regard and did not pay the full penalty.

    Ez 28:13-19 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
    15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
    18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
    19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

    Hell – What about Eternal Fire, Worm dieth not, unquenchable fire, Forever and ever?

    Jude 6-8 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth AS AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

    Question: Are they still burning or did the fire go out? Simply the results of the fire (punishment) is eternal but the punishing is not.

    Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    Notice what these texts say – The chaff is burnt up. It is gone. It is burned by a fire that cannot be put out until all is burned up. There is another text which supports this view.

    In light of the above, this text in Mark 9:43 will also follow the same logic. "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

    Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

    Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.

    Mark 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.
    Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm.

    In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture of total destruction.

    Isaiah 34: 5-10 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
    6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
    7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness.”
    8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
    9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch.
    10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

    Is Edom still burning? Do we still see its smoke ascending? Is there a section of the earth that men cannot pass through?

    This passage, in which God predicts that Edom will be burned by fire forever, has four verbal parallels to Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 as well as the thematic parallel of judgment. The fact that Isaiah 34:9, 10 is the only passage in the Bible with this many parallels to the Revelation passages indicates that the author of Revelation would have us interpret “forever and ever,” when referring to the torment of the wicked, in the context of God’s judgment on Edom.

    Hell – What does it say about God?

    The bible says

    1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God IS LOVE.
    Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    Romans 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

    Psalm 7:11 God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day.
    Isaiah 30:18 [ God Will Be Gracious ] Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him.

    Isaiah 13:11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    Job 37:23 As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

    Exodus 34:6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,

    Deuteronomy 4:31 (for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

    Nehemiah 9:17 They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God, Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them.

    Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

    How do we reconcile Love, Justice and Mercy with Hell? If God is just then those who break the law are deserving of death, for the wages of sin is death. The bible also says "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.

    As God is Just He will punish according to our works. And from Luke it seems that “the punishment will fit the crime”. So now comes the dilemma in Love, Mercy and Justice in regards to Hell.

    1. If God is Love then how can he burn a person forever? Would that be more like a sadistic god rather than a Loving God?
    2. If God is merciful then where is the mercy on a person who for a few years is against God but then will be tormented by fire for trillions upon trillions of years and after that they have only just begun. Would this be a God of Love and Mercy? Would His subjects worship Him in Love or Fear? What if it was your son, daughter, husband, wife, father or mother in Hell and you were in heaven. Would you be comfortable with them being tortured forever? How can God wipe away every tear if we know what is happening to those we loved but rejected God?
    3. If God is Just, then how does the punishment fit the crime? Unending torture for a few years does not sound just. And how does Luke 12:47 & 48 fit into this? Let’s assume that Esau did not repent and thus would be in Hell and then Hitler also went there. Now we know Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths and we do not see in the bible that Esau killed millions. Yet according to some you are in Hell the minute you die and thus Esau would seem to have a longer sentence than Hitler or to those who say all enter Hell at the same time both Esau and Hitler get the same punishment which also does not fit Luke. Where is the justice?

    The bible says “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. Luke 9:56. "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” Isaiah 28:21.

    So what is the solution? God is Love. He cares and loves all His creation. He Loves both Satan and his angels and those of the human race who turned against Him as He is Father of all, both the Just and the Unjust. He cannot let wicked go on forever as that will not satisfy His being Just. He must deliver justice as the wages of sin is death. At the same time these are His children and He is merciful. To punish forever is not merciful. But sin must be eradicated from the universe.

    In Hebrews Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might DESTROY him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    In Ezekiel 28:13-19 the bible says “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
    15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I DESTROYED you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
    18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought FIRE out from your midst; it CONSUMED you, and I TURNED YOU TO ASHES on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
    19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER.”

    This passage is referring to Lucifer/Satan as he was the covering cherub. It says that Satan will be BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE FOREVER. Here we see a Loving God being forced to kill His child to save His other children. By this act, God is Love, in that He saved His children that loved Him from the evil from the child that rebelled. God is Just in that He punished the guilty. God is merciful in that He did not make a punishment go on forever is a sadistic manner.

    So if God did this for Lucifer, what does the bible say about what will happen to wicked men?

    Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.

    Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."

    Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

    Ps 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME INTO SMOKE shall they CONSUME AWAY."

    PS 37:10 For yet a little while and the wicked SHALL BE NO MORE; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

    Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and DEVOURED them.

    The same wording is used as was applied to Satan. The wicked were BURNED, DESTROYED, CONSUMED, TURNED INTO ASHES, and SHALL BE NO MORE.

    In summary, death in Hell satisfies a Loving God who is also Just and Merciful whereas eternal torment is not Loving, Merciful or Just.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "10, 11. shall not be—literally, "is not"—is not to be found."

    "Shall not be, to wit, in the land of the living. He shall be dead and gone, as this phrase is commonly taken."

    "It shall not be, i.e. his place, and estate, and glory shall be gone..."

    "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be,.... Not that they shall be annihilated or reduced to nothing, because nonentities have no place nor being any where; when they die they shall lift up their eyes in hell; their bodies will rise again at the last day; they shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ...but they shall be no more in the world, and in the same flourishing and prosperous circumstances they
    were..."

    Psalm 37:10 Commentaries: Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

    It is not true that in a "little while" the wicked would be endlessly annihilated. In much longer than "a little while", in fact thousands of years later for those of that time, they will be raised back to life.

    Psalm 72

    11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

    13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

    14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Hell – How long will it last?[/
    Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be STUBBLE. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.
    Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it."
    Notice: After the fire has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left.
    Malachi 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

    The usual litany of out-of-context proof texts.
    Note Malachi talks about a certain day when when something happens. Will the saints be trampling on the ashes of the unrighteous in paradise? Or is this something that happens only on one day in this life?
    ....Isa 47;14 is also about something which happens in this life. I has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.

    Isaiah 47:13-15
    (13) Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
    (14) Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
    (15) Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
    More out-of-context proof texts.

    Psalms 37:1-2
    (1) A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    (2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    Cut down like the grass and wither as the green herb in this life has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.
    Psalms 37:9-10
    (9) For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    (10) For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    The wicked are cut off like the grass vs.1. The righteous will not be looking for the place of the wicked in paradise. This is what happens in this life.
    Psalms 37:14-15
    (14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    (15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.[/quote]
    The wicked have drawn out the sword and bent their bows to attack Israel but their own sword's will pierce them and their bows broken. This has nothing to with man's eternal fate.
    Psa 37:17
    (17) For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    The arm's of the wicked broken not their eternal fate.
    Psalms 37:28
    (28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are drawn out the sword to for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    Psalms 37:34
    (34) Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
    Psalms 37:38
    (38) But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    The wicked are cut down like grass, vs. 1. Has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.



     
  17. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    My view is different, and allows that the judged person is always in control of their own destiny.

    Those who cling tightly to their sin, who love it more than God; these will not release it when in God's presence. God judges merely by drawing close, by shining his light upon a person.

    Sane people will fall down to their face and worship God, relinquishing their tight grasp of sin. They will, in this way, be attracted toward God like a magnet.

    Insane people will reject God and be repelled ever and ever further away from God into darkness. This is the lake of fire. They choose it and they will never change their decision because their hatred of God is stronger than their suffering and misery.
     
  18. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    Excellent and exhaustive study! Permission to copy and paste it into a Word doc for later use?
     
  19. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    The problem with this premise if that it's not "my" view vs "your" view, it is what the Bible clearly states. Yours is a peace and safety message and also highly arrogant to state that the person judged of God is in control of anything... there is no second chance.

    Please read though Rineub's post above for a detailed and correct view of eternal punishment and how a loving God would measure justice.
     
  20. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    The Bible does not clearly state what you claim it states.

    My view does not offer a "second chance".

    You are calling me arrogant simply because my interpretation of the Bible is different than yours.
     
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