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Featured Islam Animal abuse in Islam towards pigs

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Al Masihi, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    I didn't say he makes a lot of money.
     
  2. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Although I explained several times but you insist on false logical argument.
    Umar ibn elkhatab,Muawya, Abosofian, and many pagan people who converted to Islam who were enemies are totally different from Paul case.
    They lived with Prophet Mohammed, Paul didn't live a minute with Jesus.
    They change nothing in Islam, Paul created new Christianity.

    You don't even deny Paul's changes. Do you?

    Paul's conflict with apostles is even documented on your books. Do you know ?
    Here is the details Proofs the 12 Apostles Rejected Paul

    Strange to say 'One God, One Christ, One Church, One Faith. ' are you serious?
    Which church? Catholic, or orthodox, or Protestant, or LDS, or JW, or uniterian ,،،
    Which God? One mature, or two? How matures? How the two natures are doing together?
    You're not even agree about the books?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  3. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    How do you know what he changed? Is there any record that says that? The book of Peter even compares St. Paul letters "with the other Scriptures".

    Your own religion does not even have a council that decides what is heresy and what's not. There is a lot of denominations in Islam even two were formed right after Mohammed's death showing how fickle they are.

    St. Paul was called by the Lord himself.
    Paul_the_Apostle_5__63218.1418427785.1000.1200_400x.jpeg
     
  4. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    You ask for a record and then add this. :doh:
     
  5. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    The references for conflict between Paul and the apostles is already provided from your books
    Proofs the 12 Apostles Rejected Paul
    Paul has created Pauline Christianity when he decided to stop working of Judaism laws that Jesus lived it. Jesus life's documented in the books shows that he practiced Judaism fully, didn't accept non Jews, didn't eat pigs like any Jew, was circumsided
    Paul changed all these in clear contradiction with Jesus life as per your books.
     
  6. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    You need to do more research my friend. Your views are incorrect.

    Jesus was a Jew, yes. He did as Jews did. But, He brought with Him a NEW Covenant.

    Jesus never rejected anyone.
     
  7. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said to the Canaanite woman, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
    He also said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
    From your books, he came for Israelis and not to abolish the law and profit

    This is Jesus message in simple words
     
  8. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Who is Israelis? Christian too. We are grafted onto the vine.

    You need to research some more my friend.
     
  9. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Israilis are not Christians. Israilis are Jews and most importantly Jacob's descendents.
    Jesus is telling that his message is not for gentiles like you.

    Jesus never call himself Christ and never call his followers Christians.

    You ignored my note about abolish the law(Jewish law), which clearly you do.

    I read in Christianity more than you and more than many people here.
    You love Christianity but not reading in/about with thinking
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Yeah, gee...who could possibly know more about Christianity and its relation to Israel than some Muslim nobody on the internet who claims to know more than Christians about absolutely everything, including their own book which he has clearly never read outside of moronic, vapid anti-Christian polemics from the Ahmed Deedat and Zakir Naik school of pretending to know about other religions' scriptures and 'true' mesages?

    Oh...maybe the people who never left Palestine in the place, and have always followed Christ? I wonder what they would say, the Palestinian Christians...I mean, surely the Almighty Limo knows more than they do about their own religion and its book and what it says and means (they're not "reading in/about thinking", after all), but let's pretend, just for a second that they can speak for themselves and don't need some foolish Muslims pretending to explain to Christians how the Christian religion is only for this people or that people.


    "What do we mean by 'Israel'? What is Israel? Who are Israel?", indeed. :scratch::idea:
     
  11. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Then you clearly interpret what you read incorrectly my friend.
     
  12. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You know Muawiyah ended up declaring war against Mohammed’s counsin and had involvement in the death of both of his grandsons. And ended up turning the Caliphate away from Mohammed’s family and unto his own clan the Banu Ummayah or the Ummayads. The Ummayads changed the system of the way the Caliphate worked by making it a monarchy styled system. Muawiyah and Abu Sufyan only converted to Islam from paganism after they lost to Mohammed, they didn’t convert willingly and there grudge towards Mohammed and his family continued after Islam, I’ll quote you a Shia source, which isn’t the most unbiased source on the Ummayads I know, but it does quote sources of its own to back it’s assertions:


    The Revival of the Umayyads

    Paul didn’t wage war with the Aposltes after his conversion or try murdering them or forcefully excommunicated them from the Church after he took over. The Apostles such as James and Peter themselves held more authority over the general Church then Paul himself did according to Paul’s own admission and he respected that authority such as when James told him to observe practices of the Mosaic law as a custom which he did and once again proved his sincerity. As Paul only preached against the Mosaic law as a source of salvation not of a source of tradition or keeping it as a general practice. So even if Paul wanted to he could never take over the Church. Also to add to that the people that came after the Apostles such as the Apostolic Fathers and those who came after them such as Irenaeus and Justin the Martyr wrote extensively against the Ebionites, so the Ebionites were never Christians nor were they ever apart of apostolic Christianity. I’d like to ask you personally what did Paul change?

    I’m not sure you even read the link you posted because nothing in it gives any clear proof that the Apostles rejected Paul. Heck if the Apostles hated Paul so much then why can’t we find one writing from them or a separate branch of apostolic teaching stretching back to them that’s Anti Pauline and contradictory to Paul’s teachings. Why doesn’t James condemn Paul in his epistle as the writers of the article are desperately trying to point out. By the way when James says we must have faith and works he isn’t contradicted Paul, this contradiction only works and happens if your a Protestant and believe in faith alone, as Paul said we believe in faith apart from works of the law, not that we believe in faith apart from works. So simply realizing the proper wording of the passage itself dispels any idea of a conflict between James and Paul. It also misquotes Martin Luther’s commentary on Galatians to make it seem that Martin Luther believed Paul was against the original Apostles of Christ. They even omitted the last sentence of his commentary on verse 6 of Galatians because it refutes there own position:

    When the apostles heard this, they were glad that I had taught the truth."

    https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal2-04.html

    This shows ow deceptive the writers of the article are, not to mention Martin Luther isn’t the best authority to quote on this matter since the whole argument of Martin Luther in his commentary is, that Paul didn’t hate the apostles, but he had to degrade their authority to show what was important was the truth of the Gospel, and he compares Paul’s action to his in degradation of the papacy, but then his justification for doing so is because, the Popes authority is not important and that only the message of Christ is. Of course Paul and Luther’s struggle don’t even compare in the slightest in reality nor did Paul ever degrade their authority as Luther implies to justify his split with the Roman Papacy:

    If the Pope would concede that God alone by His grace through Christ justifies sinners, we would carry him in our arms, we would kiss his feet. But since we cannot obtain this concession, we will give in to nobody, not to all the angels in heaven, not to Peter, not to Paul, not to a hundred emperors, not to a thousand popes, not to the whole world. If in this matter we were to humble ourselves, they would take from us the God who created us, and Jesus Christ who has redeemed us by His blood. Let this be our resolution, that we will suffer the loss of all things, the loss of our good name, of life itself, but the Gospel and our faith in Jesus Christ--we will not stand for it that anybody take them from us.


    LDS aren’t Christians, that’s not even disputed by anyone, it’s not even disputed by the LDS themselves, JWs aren’t Christians and no one regards them as such, it would be like me telling you Druze or Ahmadi are Muslims which I’m sure you wouldn’t accept so why the hypocrisy? Unitarians or those that deny the trinity can’t be Christians, they aren’t even regarded as Christians by this forum much less the rest of the Christian world, Nicaea is a non negotiable ecumenical Council, anyone who rejects it can’t be called a Christian or be a part of the body of Christ, point made. As for Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, there aren’t any major doctrinal differences that really would divide the three major sects to the point of having a different faith as in the case of the other three religions you mentioned. Also it’s worth adding that Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have their origins in the one original Apostolic Church that later split, although each of the three will claim to still possess the true apostolic faith however that is of no concern to our current argument and does not effect this conversation. So there is still one faith between us despite our doctrinal differences.
     
  13. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Arabs especially those that are Christians like myself just like normal people have a variety of political views. Some are anti Israel and some like myself lean more towards Israel in the current conflict that’s going one between Palestinians and Israelis. However just my political view point it has nothing to do with that bs that some evangelicals preach that modern secular Israel was founded by God and that all Christians have to support it and what not. Modern day Israel has nothing to do with Biblical Israel, the Church is Israel and Gods chosen people, not the Jews who reject Christ.
     
  14. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    See this is from your books dictionary
    King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Israelite

    Israelite
    (descendant of Isr'l). In (2 Samuel 17:25) Ithra, the father of Amasa, is called "an Isr'lite," while in (1 Chronicles 2:17) he appears as "Jether the Ishm'lite." The latter is undoubtedly the true reading


    See who knows better about Christianity?
    You don't even know who are Israelites, whom Jesus was sent to their lost sheep
     
  15. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Another reference from many translation
    Topical Bible: Israel
    Who are Israelites?
    Jesus said clearly, he was sent to Israelites, you all are gentiles
     
  16. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Very long copy-pastes.
    One point paid my attention.
    You said , "Heck if the Apostles hated Paul so much then why can’t we find one writing from them or a separate branch of apostolic teaching stretching back to them that’s Anti Pauline and contradictory to Paul’s teachings. "
    This is a good a Point.
    Where are the writings of the 12 not only about Paul but about Jesus himself?


    I copied and pasted from previous link about rejection of Paul by the 12
    "
    This distrust of Paul by the apostles continued. First, James, the Bishop of Jerusalem and brother of Jesus (Gal. 1:19), and whom Paul identifies as an "apostle" (Gal. 1:19), confronts Paul in Acts 21:21 about charges that Paul is guilty of "apostasia" - Greek for APOSTASY - from the Law God gave Moses. (See Greek tab.)

    Second, Paul complained in one of his espistles that the apostles refused to give him letters of commendation so that Gentiles would accept Paul's teachings as authorized, thanking his listeners for accepting him without such letters based upon signs and wonders alone -- the "signs of an apostle." For a full discussion, see our article, The 12 Refused Paul Letters of Commendation."

    See he himself said that the 12 didn't authorize him, didn't recognize him as an appostle
     
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    James, 1 Peter, John, etc, all there writings are in your modern Bible. The charges of Paul’s apostasy came from the Judaizers who were spreading rumors that Paul was against the law and wanted to destroy it, Paul diespled by charge by following James command to observe some of its commands to prove he didn’t hate it or want to destroy it which is what Paul did. Where does Paul say in any of his letters that the original Apostles refused to give him commendation so that the Gentiles would accept his teachings. This is the whole paragraph from 2 Corinthians 6 in context from verse 1 to 13 it talks nothing about the Apostles anywhere nor of any authorization from them.

    6 As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain. 2 For he says,

    “At an acceptable time I have listened to you,
    and on a day of salvation I have helped you.”

    See, now is the acceptable time; see, now is the day of salvation! 3 We are putting no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry, 4 but as servants of God we have commended ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, 5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; 6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, holiness of spirit, genuine love, 7 truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; 8 in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true; 9 as unknown, and yet are well known; as dying, and see—we are alive; as punished, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

    11 We have spoken frankly to you Corinthians; our heart is wide open to you. 12 There is no restriction in our affections, but only in yours. 13 In return—I speak as to children—open wide your hearts also.

    Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 6 - New Revised Standard Version
     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes Jesus himself was sent to Israel however he sent his apostles to evangelize the world in his name which includes Gentiles. Matthew 28:19, Jesus himself appeared to Peter in Acts telling him to evangelize the Roman Cornelius.
     
  19. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Again, you need to do 'proper' research my friend. You misunderstand scripture.
     
  20. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    Looks like no use continue in discussion.
     
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