Angela Merkel - Leader of the free world

[Larniavc]

Nonsense. They favor having the job get done correctly and, preferably, at the lowest cost to the taxpayer.

Well they are failing to keep American health care cost down. I hear they are much higher for the same health outcomes. But if you could show me where I was wrong I would be happy to back track on that point.

 

[Albion]

Well they are failing to keep American health care cost down.

You brought up private prisons, and it was that which I was referring to.

 

[High Fidelity]

You know it is serious when the British say something like that about a German leader.

What? I'm British and everyone I know has a tremendous amount of respect for Germany and Merkel.

 

[Larniavc]

You brought up private prisons, and it was that which I was referring to.

My mistake.

 

[TheNorwegian]

What? I'm British and everyone I know has a tremendous amount of respect for Germany and Merkel.

I know many in the UK respect Merkel (except for the majority that voted for Brexit). However, most Brits that I know have very little idea about Germany, so when they respect a German politician as much as they do Merkel, then it is worth taking note of

 

[mindlight]

The UK based newspaper The Independent recently had an article saying that Angela Merkel is now "The leader of the free world". You know it is serious when the British say something like that about a German leader. I do think it is a fair reflection on how people outside the US sees this, though. For decades POTUS has been called "the leader of the free world". How bad/good is it for the US that this perspective has changed throughout the world?

Angela Merkel is now the leader of the free world, not Donald Trump

Angela Merkel is one of my favourite politicians and I really hope she wins in the forthcoming German elections. Her approval ratings have recovered from the lows of last year and now stand about 60%.

Germanys position in Europe , given the current weakness of France and the departure of the UK is quite dominant. So if we consider her as the de facto leader in Europe this statement might makes some sense in economic terms. This because the EU as a whole is comparable to the American economy. But her actual control over the European economy is not as convincing as Trumps authority in the US Economy.

Militarily there is no question of American dominance and especially with the departure of the UK from the EU.

Then there is the cultural values factor. Merkel is clearly more inclusive and internationalist in her style and Germany has an institutionalised policy of considering its identity as a part of the greater whole of Europe. Trumps policy by contrast is a nationalistic America first policy. Personally I agree with Merkels immigration policy as a matter of compassion and hard headed realism relating to Germanys demographic crisis. But the German voters do not and Merkel has had to adjust to the new hardness there.

Merkel overall stands for the more tolerant and internationalist perspective that we associated with American Democrats and most Europeans and being the most powerful figure to choose from could in that sense be considered the representative of the free world. However her lack of military power and lesser economic power probably undermine the claim.

 

[mindlight]

I am very sorry, may I throw in an opinion of a non-Westerner? First of all, "the free world" is a laughable concept for me. There is nothing free about "the free world". We, in the rest of the world, look at it quite differently. Free world? Totalitarian world! Slaves of your dollar-pound-euro-yen or global financial pyramid, which is trying to enslave the whole world. Not going to happen!

Angela Merkel, a laughable figure. A former GDR Stasi agent turned FRG chancellor? Joke of jokes. Very weak politician, who is a 100% USA puppet and never sought the interests of Germany or even EU? Only seeking US interests. "Leader" is not a title suitable for somebody being lead her whole career (maybe lifetime).

Europe is dying because of Western Europe/EU seeking US interests for decades. Slaves. Colonies. Weak countries nearing collapse.

So, this phrase to me is a joke about a joke.

Great to hear from a non Westerner - thanks for posting.

Not sure what your sources are regarding the view that we are all slaves to the capitalist machine. Here in Germany there are strong worker rights and social democracy has established a good balance between the necessary activities of corporations creating wealth and the social commitments that a moral and civilised society must respect. I am pretty certain that education , health etc are superior here than in Kazakhstan , wages are higher giving more choices and the rule of law protects our freedoms better. Germany has a very strong claim to model true freedom to the rest of the world.

Your claims about the links between the STASI and Merkel are simply wrong and she would not have been elected by West Germans had that been the case.

Germany does enjoy a good relationship with America as does Europe and that is a good thing for German trade and for the strength of a NATO alliance that has kept the peace for 70 years.

Europe does have major institutional problems which it needs to address and various crises at the moment. However it approaches these from a vastly stronger position than in Russia or Kazakhstan right now.

 

[mindlight]

Angela Merkel represents Europe and its progressive attitude. Trump commands no respect and would be a comedic figure if his policies were not so dangerous.
Where I live, in the UK, there is a sizable minority who are right-wing and nationalistic. They managed to win the Brexit referendum though, despite around 75% of us wanting to remain in the EU.
Trump and May are taking us to a place I don't want to go.

The country remains quite divided on the issue with slight majority and trend in favour of BREXIT. Not that the polls were really that helpful in determining what people really thought about this.

UK poll results

As someone who voted remain I and my British family are quite pragmatic on this now. We now need to get on with making the best of leaving, there is no room for revolutions.

 

[mindlight]

She virtually said so, TN. Check it out. More potential laborers in the country and there'd be an improvement in Germany's economy, so the lamebrained claim went.

Not immediately but in the long term this will be true. The German demographic crisis is the most serious crisis afflicting Germanys long term prospects.

The obvious solution is either for Germans to have more babies (there is a deep seated cultural issue (to do with individualism and the work culture) that may take a generation to resolve here, or have to wait for the current batch of lonely egotists to die out).

So the only other possible answer is immigration. Merkel was not wrong on this but she now has to adjust to increased public opposition to immigration.

 

[Albion]

Not immediately but in the long term this will be true. The German demographic crisis is the most serious crisis afflicting Germanys long term prospects.

That might turn out to be the case. The Romans faced the same situation, saw it develop in the same way, and the result was the end of classical civilization.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Germanys position in Europe , given the current weakness of France and the departure of the UK is quite dominant. So if we consider her as the de facto leader in Europe this statement might makes some sense in economic terms. This because the EU as a whole is comparable to the American economy. But her actual control over the European economy is not as convincing as Trumps authority in the US Economy.

I agree that Trump (potentially) have more control of the economy. However, the German economy is in much better shape than the US economy. Germany produces stuff people actually want, and so have a much better trade balance then the US. Being the biggest company/economy doesn't help much if you keep losing money. Germany alone is the world's fourth or fifth largest economy, s it is not insignificant

Then there is the cultural values factor. Merkel is clearly more inclusive and internationalist in her style and Germany has an institutionalised policy of considering its identity as a part of the greater whole of Europe. Trumps policy by contrast is a nationalistic America first policy. Personally I agree with Merkels immigration policy as a matter of compassion and hard headed realism relating to Germanys demographic crisis. But the German voters do not and Merkel has had to adjust to the new hardness there.

Merkel overall stands for the more tolerant and internationalist perspective that we associated with American Democrats and most Europeans and being the most powerful figure to choose from could in that sense be considered the representative of the free world. However her lack of military power and lesser economic power probably undermine the claim.

This is the main reason too se Merkel as the leader of the free world. She represents values that has shaped Western world, something Trump hardly does. She is also very well educated and well behaved - again contrary to Trump

 

[mindlight]

That might turn out to be the case. The Romans faced the same situation, saw it develop in the same way, and the result was the end of classical civilization.

The Eastern empire survived for a thousand years after the barbarians plunged the West into the dark ages. The Roman mistake and this was especially true of Christians was their newfound pacifism combined with the hiring of barbarians to defend their frontiers. If you want peace then prepare for war. I am more worried about the hollow structures of an under financed German military than I am about immigration of the sort that is occurring here.

 

[mindlight]

I agree that Trump (potentially) have more control of the economy. However, the German economy is in much better shape than the US economy. Germany produces stuff people actually want, and so have a much better trade balance then the US. Being the biggest company/economy doesn't help much if you keep losing money. Germany alone is the world's fourth or fifth largest economy, s it is not insignificant

The German trade surplus, export dominance and balanced budget are strengths but its rate of growth is low. This has a lot to do with the cost of a welfare state that has outpaced economic growth and also a low birth rate. The economy Is strong but not large enough to be considered globally dominant. America and China are more significant.

This is the main reason too se Merkel as the leader of the free world. She represents values that has shaped Western world, something Trump hardly does. She is also very well educated and well behaved - again contrary to Trump

The values that shaped the Western world were Christian ones and neither Trump nor Merkel are perfect on that score. A strong military warrior culture was part of that and first blossomed with the crusader knights that stopped the expansion of Islam in its tracks. Also an entrepreneurial spirit and the rise of a middle class hungry for self improvement. A commitment to freedom that was enlarged from the theocratic medieval Christendoms conception by the reformation and enlightenment. Finally the institutionalised compassion of welfare states. These Were the things that made us great. Political correctness has eroded the basis of Western preeminence in recent years

 

[LionL]

As someone who voted remain I and my British family are quite pragmatic on this now. We now need to get on with making the best of leaving, there is no room for revolutions.

I can’t accept it I’m afraid. The government is ignoring the will of a sizable portion (up to 75% according to some polls) of the population. Brexit will bring an end to the UK if it is allowed to continue.

 

[TheNorwegian]

The German trade surplus, export dominance and balanced budget are strengths but its rate of growth is low. This has a lot to do with the cost of a welfare state that has outpaced economic growth and also a low birth rate. The economy Is strong but not large enough to be considered globally dominant. America and China are more significant.

Sure, Chinese economy is stronger, but China can hardly be seen as the leader of the free world, which is the theme of OP

The values that shaped the Western world were Christian ones and neither Trump nor Merkel are perfect on that score.

I guess no one is perfect when it comes to Christian values (or are you?). However, Merkel is definitely closer to Biblical ethics than Trump. Her party is the Christian Democratic Party, her dad was a pastor, and she seems to value the Bible and the Christian roots of Germany

Also an entrepreneurial spirit and the rise of a middle class hungry for self improvement.

Germany has risen from the ashes after WW2 mainly due to hard work and a strong entrepreneurial spirit. Germany has a strong middle class, which Merkel supports and they vote for Merkel

. A commitment to freedom that was enlarged from the theocratic medieval Christendoms conception by the reformation and enlightenment.

I don't think any country is more closely related to the Reformation than Germany...

Finally the institutionalised compassion of welfare states.

Merkel is a defender of the welfare state. Very, very, very much more so than Trump
I think this proves my point

 

[mindlight]

Sure, Chinese economy is stronger, but China can hardly be seen as the leader of the free world, which is the theme of OP



I guess no one is perfect when it comes to Christian values (or are you?). However, Merkel is definitely closer to Biblical ethics than Trump. Her party is the Christian Democratic Party, her dad was a pastor, and she seems to value the Bible and the Christian roots of Germany



Germany has risen from the ashes after WW2 mainly due to hard work and a strong entrepreneurial spirit. Germany has a strong middle class, which Merkel supports and they vote for Merkel



I don't think any country is more closely related to the Reformation than Germany...



Merkel is a defender of the welfare state. Very, very, very much more so than Trump
I think this proves my point

You missed out perhaps the most important feature of the rise of the free world - the willingness and ability to fight for it. On that score America is the better example of Western values. Also America is the more dominant economy. So it is still in the balance as to whether we could call Merkel leader of the free world as she has not got the raw power or wealth to assert the claim. Real Politik v Idealism?

Also I would suggest that the kinds of freedom we now see in Germany are not the kind that underpinned the original greatness. There is an individualism and even narcissism about many Germans understandings of freedom. It is freedom for self rather than for others or for God. It is one of the reasons the birth rate is so low and the divorce rate is at 50% of all marriages. Marriage and family require sacrifices that many modern Germans are not prepared to make.

The generation that rebuilt Germany is not the current generation. Germans have been very comfortable for more than a generation and the hunger and passion that characterised the postwar generation is missing.

I love Germany and I live here. In many ways it is a model to the rest of the world but in others there is a decadence that needs to be challenged. I see an opportunity in mass immigration to challenge the complacency of modern Germans, to get them thinking about faith again and to get a feel for the hunger for a better life that exists outside their borders. Also Muslims have a lower divorce rate and have more children, 2 things that Germans are failing at right now.

 

[TheNorwegian]

You missed out perhaps the most important feature of the rise of the free world - the willingness and ability to fight for it. On that score America is the better example of Western values. Also America is the more dominant economy. So it is still in the balance as to whether we could call Merkel leader of the free world as she has not got the raw power or wealth to assert the claim. Real Politik v Idealism?.

No, I did not miss that point, I just think it was a weak argument from your side, so I didn't bother to engage with it.

I do not think "willingness to fight" is what defines the free world. Every world power is willing to fight. Usually the less free a country is, the more wiling it is to fight. This has been true since Ancient times - from the Assyrian Empire to ISIS - none of those powers were free, but very willing to fight. Of course, it is sometimes necessary to fight, but calling it "the most important feature" in the rise of freedom is not correct.

 

[mindlight]

No, I did not miss that point, I just think it was a weak argument from your side, so I didn't bother to engage with it.

I do not think "willingness to fight" is what defines the free world. Every world power is willing to fight. Usually the less free a country is, the more wiling it is to fight. This has been true since Ancient times - from the Assyrian Empire to ISIS - none of those powers were free, but very willing to fight. Of course, it is sometimes necessary to fight, but calling it "the most important feature" in the rise of freedom is not correct.

I said willingness and ability. Germany is in no position to lecture America when the hollow structures of its military render it so dependent on American protection. If a leader cannot even protect their own peoples freedoms how can they speak for the whole free world!

 

[Albion]

The Eastern empire survived for a thousand years after the barbarians plunged the West into the dark ages..

Oh, you mean as a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] deprived of the great majority of its territory and become something quite unlike what it had been for the previous millennium.

If we were to apply that to the future of Europe or America, you'd be arguing for some holdout area, Ireland perhaps or the Great Plains area of the USA representing some sort of remnant of what had been--but with quite a new culture. that's not exactly a refutation of what I wrote.

 

[mindlight]

Oh, you mean as a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] deprived of the great majority of its territory and become something quite unlike what it had been for the previous millennium.

If we were to apply that to the future of Europe or America, you'd be arguing for some holdout area, Ireland perhaps or the Great Plains area of the USA representing some sort of remnant of what had been--but with quite a new culture. that's not exactly a refutation of what I wrote.

No The Eastern empire was the rich bit. The rumours of Romes fall were premature. It was a consolidation. Reading the history of Rome as did Gibbons with a Western bias is the issue with your interpretation. Anyway as previously argued there is no comparison with the barbarian invasions and immigration as you were trying to suggest. So this has become a red herring. German pacifism is more of a problem than its compassion for vulnerable and broken poor people.