Angel placed on alter table rather than cross

[polkaman]

Hello.
I would like some input. I take care of a church (methodist)...we have an alter table that is pretty good size. A group of ladies redecorated following christmas.
I personally feel and like the look of the large brass cross behind a propped up big bible that is opened to that weeks sermon. But no...they took it down and put a large all white ceramic angel with a harp, it has a non discriped face. Then they put it on a box drapped with all white cloth...there is so much white it is hard to make out the figurine.
Is it right to replace a cross with an angel figure ?

Thank you

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Short answer is No; assuming that Christ is still central to your doctrine. Angels on either side of the Cross or Crucifix are traditional, and symbolize that all of creation praises our Lord.

People don't always think things through; our Church has a bunch of icons; the ladies wanted to take them down to hang up Christmas decorations. We put a quick stop to that idea!! When we explained the difference between "sacred images" that have been dedicated to use in our Lord's house vs. decorations; they understood!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Short answer is No; assuming that Christ is still central to your doctrine. Angels on either side of the Cross or Crucifix are traditional, and symbolize that all of creation praises our Lord.

People don't always think things through; our Church has a bunch of icons; the ladies wanted to take them down to hang up Christmas decorations. We put a quick stop to that idea!! When we explained the difference between "sacred images" that have been dedicated to use in our Lord's house vs. decorations; they understood!

No Angels on our Altar, but note that even when there is no Eucharist, the Missal stand is not placed in front of the the crucifix; but to the side.

At services where the Eucharist is celebrated, only the veiled Chalice is placed before the Cross. A picture of our Chapel as well below.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hello.
I would like some input. I take care of a church (methodist)...we have an alter table that is pretty good size. A group of ladies redecorated following christmas.
I personally feel and like the look of the large brass cross behind a propped up big bible that is opened to that weeks sermon. But no...they took it down and put a large all white ceramic angel with a harp, it has a non discriped face. Then they put it on a box drapped with all white cloth...there is so much white it is hard to make out the figurine.
Is it right to replace a cross with an angel figure ?

Thank you

It’s entirely inappropriate. There is a book you need to get for your Altar Guild published by the UMC, called United Methodist Altars, by Hoyt L. Hickman, and its available on iBooks and other ebook services. And you need to raise a stink about this, because the altar guild failed your church in a huge way and violated the guidelines the UMC itself set out in the aforementioned book for how altars are to be decorated.

Indeed they did such a bad job, I would say they made a very compelling argument for the Roman Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and high church Anglican tradition (and indeed, canon laws) which allow only ordained clergy of the rank of Deacon or higher to touch the Holy Table, and only ordained clergy are allowed in the altar area (behind the altar rail or iconostasis, or on the bema in Assyrian, Chaldean and Armenian churches).

I myself have seen altar guilds do beautiful work, and I have bad arthritis and personally need their help, which is why I support a well-run altar guild. And the book United Methodist Altars is really excellent; its so good that I had the altar use it at my UCC parish and use it now at my new church plant (at the UCC parish, without that book, the UCC being, well, the UCC, all kinds of crazy could occur).

The only other good book I’ve seen on altar decoration is The Parson’s Handbook by Rev. Percy Dearmer, who was a high church Anglican, and it suffers from being extremely specific to the unique customs of the English liturgical tradition in terms of altar decoration (which are not widely followed in the US even by Anglican or Episcopalian churches).

 

[The Liturgist]

No Angels on our Altar, but note that even when there is no Eucharist, the Missal stand is not placed in front of the the crucifix; but to the side.
View attachment 293101

At services where the Eucharist is celebrated, only the veiled Chalice is placed before the Cross. A picture of our Chapel as well below.

View attachment 293102
View attachment 293103

I love that Sarum Blue frontal.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I love that Sarum Blue frontal.

Were it mine, I would gladly give it to you. Blue for advent is an innovation that crept in from Scandinavia that came shortly after Vatican II and the 3 year lectionairy. The Historic one year lectionary is my prefference; however, since someone saw fit to donate it, we are bound to use it. Note the downstairs chapel for advent, got Purple by default. LOL. Love it!!

 

[PloverWing]

Indeed they did such a bad job, I would say they made a very compelling argument for the Roman Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and high church Anglican tradition (and indeed, canon laws) which allow only ordained clergy of the rank of Deacon or higher to touch the Holy Table, and only ordained clergy are allowed in the altar area (behind the altar rail or iconostasis, or on the bema in Assyrian, Chaldean and Armenian churches).

This seems an excessive response. The altar guild made a mistake, that's all. I could imagine an inexperienced deacon making a similar mistake. Surely it's sufficient to have a quiet conversation with the group who did the redecorating.

 

[The Liturgist]

This seems an excessive response. The altar guild made a mistake, that's all. I could imagine an inexperienced deacon making a similar mistake. Surely it's sufficient to have a quiet conversation with the group who did the redecorating.

Did you read the rest of my post, for instance, the very next paragraph?

I myself have seen altar guilds do beautiful work, and I have bad arthritis and personally need their help, which is why I support a well-run altar guild. And the book United Methodist Altars is really excellent; its so good that I had the altar guild use it at my UCC parish and ... at my new church plant (at the UCC parish, without that book, the UCC being, well, the UCC, all kinds of crazy could occur).

That said I personally bless the members of the altar guild and I do limit access to the altar area at any church I work for to people who really need to be there, and I do require people who enter the altar or approach or touch the holy table to get a blessing. This is to remind them of the solemnity of the altar as the place where the words of our Lord instituting the Eucharist are spoken as we mystically participate with Christ our Savior in the Last Supper , 1,988 years ago.

To wit, I really like the ancient hymn from the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which many Protestant hymnals set to the French Huguenot chorale Picardy. (I prefer a melody used in the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Churches, but whatever version you have access to, it is a wonderful hymn for highlighting the wondrous mystery Holy Communion, the bread of heaven and the cup of the New Covenant).

 

[GreekOrthodox]

This is our altar

 

[PloverWing]

Did you read the rest of my post, for instance, the very next paragraph?

I did read the rest of the post. There was an element of control in the language of the post that made me uncomfortable. I was hearing in your post a picture of the altar guild as not-entirely-reliable assistants to the priest who can be capable of good work but who need to be well-governed by the priest, and who maybe shouldn't be allowed near the altar without the priest's permission. Perhaps you didn't intend this, though.

Yes, the altar guild in the OP made a mistake. And priests make mistakes, and deacons make mistakes. And we gently correct each other, with humility, when appropriate. The picture of a strong hierarchy, with clergy governing the laity, is not what I would want to see in a church.

 

[Tigger45]

This is our altar
View attachment 293403

Wow, is this from behind an iconostasis?

 

[PloverWing]

Our church takes a different approach to cross placement.

(Note that the Paschal Candle and the baptismal font are usually off to the side. They're out in front in this picture because it's set up for the Easter Vigil, with baptism.)

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Wow, is this from behind an iconostasis?

Its one of the pictures from our church's virtual tour. It's one of those 360 degree things. This is picture of our dome and mosaic Christ Pantocrator from the iconostasis

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is our altar
View attachment 293403

Very nice!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I did read the rest of the post. There was an element of control in the language of the post that made me uncomfortable. I was hearing in your post a picture of the altar guild as not-entirely-reliable assistants to the priest who can be capable of good work but who need to be well-governed by the priest, and who maybe shouldn't be allowed near the altar without the priest's permission. Perhaps you didn't intend this, though.

Yes, the altar guild in the OP made a mistake. And priests make mistakes, and deacons make mistakes. And we gently correct each other, with humility, when appropriate. The picture of a strong hierarchy, with clergy governing the laity, is not what I would want to see in a church.

As Sacristan, if there is a question, I ask my Pastor; if we are both on the same page, we proceed, if we both have a good idea, but are both different, we generally will do further consultation of rubrics and Altar Guild manual; even those outside of or tradition. Much is considered "adiaphora". Regardless; Pastor is our spiritual father and shepherd, so we will always defer to his judgement as the final word.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Very nice!

I'd love to visit this Russian Orthodox cathedral in San Francisco

 

[The Liturgist]

I'd love to visit this Russian Orthodox cathedral in San Francisco

It houses the relics of St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco.

There are also two stunning ROCOR co-cathedrals in Los Angeles and Hollywood, St. Nicholas Antiochian Orthodox cathedral, which is exquisite, St. Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Cathedral, St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East, and the grandest of them all, St. Sophia’s Greek Orthodox Cathedral, of which Tom Hanks and his wife are members.

In nearby Burbank, you have the spectacular new St. Leon’s Armenian Orthodox Cathedral, St. Ephrem’s Syriac Orthodox Cathedral, and St. Vartan’s Armenian Orthodox Cathedral (St. Leon’s is affiliated with Holy Etchmiadzin and St. Vartan’s with The Great House of Cilicia; the two were Cold War rivals like the OCA and ROCOR, a schism which has now healed, but there are still two separate Armenian jurisdictions in the US).

Meanwhile, the Episcopalian cathedral for LA is underwhelming (First Congregational Church is much more impressive and much more Episcopal-looking), but some of the parishes are gorgeous. The new Roman Catholic cathedral (I say new, because it feels like yesterday when they opened it...twenty years ago) is also seriously underwhelming, but if you head out to Ventura County, Thomas Aquinas College is gorgeous and has a daily Tridentine mass, temporarily suspended due to Covid, and there is a weekly Tridentine mass still being served at the stunning St. Mary Magdalene chapel in Camarillo (the main parish church moved in the 80s I think to an ugly Brutalist building in between a shopping center and City Hall, but the old parish remains in use, and the entire Camarillo family is interred in its crypt. I will post a picture in another thread.

As Sacristan, if there is a question, I ask my Pastor; if we are both on the same page, we proceed, if we both have a good idea, but are both different, we generally will do further consultation of rubrics and Altar Guild manual; even those outside of or tradition. Much is considered "adiaphora". Regardless; Pastor is our spiritual father and shepherd, so we will always defer to his judgement as the final word.

I agree entirely.

 

[The Liturgist]

I did read the rest of the post. There was an element of control in the language of the post that made me uncomfortable. I was hearing in your post a picture of the altar guild as not-entirely-reliable assistants to the priest who can be capable of good work but who need to be well-governed by the priest, and who maybe shouldn't be allowed near the altar without the priest's permission. Perhaps you didn't intend this, though.

Yes, the altar guild in the OP made a mistake. And priests make mistakes, and deacons make mistakes. And we gently correct each other, with humility, when appropriate. The picture of a strong hierarchy, with clergy governing the laity, is not what I would want to see in a church.

I posted a reply in a different thread, and I @ tagged you, as I wanted to explore the issue of hierarchy.