And they say, "There's no Evidence ... !!!"

bhsmte

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Thousands of reported miracles over thousands of years.

Of exactly the kind you claim you would accept if they occured.

Except thousands have occurred over thousands of years ALREADY in the past past water under the bridge. Spilled milk.

Unreasonable Faith [in earth as an isolated system, independent of the heavens]
Believing in something IN SPITE of the evidence. We hold an unreasonable faith [in earth as an isolated system, independent of the heavens] when we REFUSE TO ACCEPT OR ACKNOWLEDGE EVIDENCE THAT EXISTS, is easily accessible and clearly refutes what we believe

Anyone can tell stories and make reports and other can cling to them and regurgitate the same.

Stories are just that, stories without independent and reliable evidence to suppor them. Tons of people have reported alien aircraft zooming around and even being abducted by the same. Some of these folks even pass lie detector tests. Do you believe them to be fact?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which is neither here nor there...

You asked what it would take for someone to believe, what kind of evidence and why that kind of evidence. That's the answer.

Now what kind of evidence would convince you that your belief in christianity is wrong? I think that's a more useful follow up question.

Let's see. Hmmmm.........Show me that Democracy, or any political ideology for that matter, can actually bring peace to the world without jeopardizing various other ethical and social considerations AND perhaps provide me with the technology to actually raise people from the dead permanently after they've kicked the bucket. If someone can do these things, I'm pretty sure I'd make a serious reconsideration about Christianity.

Oh, one more thing! Skeptics will have to have to fully explain to me why Biblical Apocalyptic literature [like the books of Daniel and Revelation, for instance] couldn't possibly apply to Western(ized) culture; that is, that the shoe doesn't fit in any case whatsoever... [And by Western(ized) culture, I'm including any nation that has more or less adopted some political ideology from Western minds, like China and North Korea have done. ]

There, how's that for starters? :eheh:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why doesn't UberGenius understand this in his "Tricks New Atheists Play" series of threads? Any of the other theists around here who want to define "atheism" out of existence by saying, "You're not an atheist unless you claim there is no god" fall into this pit as well. I'm not saying plenty of skeptics around here don't think this way too, but it isn't limited to us un-believers, it's a pretty common misconception.
That's a valid question, but I'm not going to speak for Uber. Maybe you've noticed, or maybe you havne't, but despite the fact that Uber and I are on friendly terms, this doesn't mean I haven't disagreed with him a few times over various aspects of epistemology and the nature of scientific evidence. And, I think I've been clear already several times over the past few years in my repeated video reference to the disagreement that has existed between atheists like Eugenie C. Scott, on the one hand, and Richard Dawkins, on the other.

So, sure. There are probably as many viewpoints on how we can evaluate all of these evidence issues as there are individuals. In fact, I'm counting on that being the case ...

I dunno. Let's say you die and go experience Heaven. Given that anything is possible with an omnipotent being, how will you ever know that even Heaven is real and not just another layer of The Matrix?
No, let's say that when I die (because I know for certain I will), and that I just happen to enter the Blessed Realm that the Bible speaks about. Am I do assume that if we're talking about the God of the Bible that "anything is possible"? Maye we've been reading different theology or philosophy books, Nick (it's been know to happen...), but I'm not under the impression that with the God of the Bible just "anything" is possible. And being that you said in an earlier post that you don't think anyone should presume to know "anything" about God and therefore conclude "anything" about His existence, I'm not sure you're in a place to tell us that it could be a Matrix situation. It's kind of inconsistent on your part to offer this quasi-Cartesian scenario; and I think Descartes himself would disagree with you.

We can't just toss around Matrix style scenarios like it's some kind of automatic, epistemic and metaphysical defeater.

Well we've touched on the Problem of Evil and this sort of thing comes up in that topic pretty frequently. Like I said earlier though, it wouldn't be evidence of existence or non-existence, it could only be an argument about what God is like.
From what you've said, you don't think anyone is in a position to do this, at least not apart from subscribing to the Bible's contents in some coherent way. Right? Or am I misunderstanding you on this points?

I'm getting curious about this one. It isn't going to be "the final piece" but I'm curious whether you can establish it as evidence or not. Can you show me an apple pie with cheddar on top, or are they really all the same basic recipe? It might, quite ironically, come down to a completely subjective judgement of uniqueness or severity or numerousness; remember that your statements about subjectiveness were what started all of this.
...well, let's just say that as far as I know, no other major religion identifies the ultimate evil with a scheme that implies the same recipe as does the Bible, even if those other religious figures may still generally suggest that we should swear off of doing what one of Avril Lavigne's new songs expresses that many of us end up doing .... and keep on doing. :smilingimp:

 
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juvenissun

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Rocks and leaves aren't evidence of god's existence. Evidence is something that must unambiguously point toward a conclusion.

Leaf and rock ARE unambiguously evidences of God. What do you mean by unambiguous? Do you know the difference between evidence and proof?
 
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juvenissun

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As for the literature, the literature is the claim. Evidence is something that backs the claim. Just because somebody wrote something down doesn't mean it's true. Evidence is used to back the claims made in the writings.

You want to see evidence of evidence?
I think you have significant logic problem. Or, you simply do not know what an evidence is. Do you think I am a real person? What is your evidence of that?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Let's see. Hmmmm.........Show me that Democracy, or any political ideology for that matter, can actually bring peace to the world without jeopardizing various other ethical and social considerations AND perhaps provide me with the technology to actually raise people from the dead permanently after they've kicked the bucket. If someone can do these things, I'm pretty sure I'd make a serious reconsideration about Christianity.

I suppose I should've included "why this particular evidence?" like you did...

Because this doesn't make any sense to me.

So why would a "political system" achieving that and people coming back from the dead be evidence christianity is wrong?

Oh, one more thing! Skeptics will have to have to fully explain to me why Biblical Apocalyptic literature [like the books of Daniel and Revelation, for instance] couldn't possibly apply to Western(ized) culture; that is, that the shoe doesn't fit in any case whatsoever... [And by Western(ized) culture, I'm including any nation that has more or less adopted some political ideology from Western minds, like China and North Korea have done. ]

There, how's that for starters? :eheh:

You want a personal interpretation of "apocalyptic literature"?

That sounds more like an opinion than evidence.
 
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Moral Orel

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That's a valid question, but I'm not going to speak for Uber. Maybe you've noticed, or maybe you havne't, but despite the fact that Uber and I are on friendly terms, this doesn't mean I haven't disagreed with him a few times over various aspects of epistemology and the nature of scientific evidence. And, I think I've been clear already several times over the past few years in my repeated video reference to the disagreement that has existed between atheists like Eugenie C. Scott, on the one hand, and Richard Dawkins, on the other.

So, sure. There are probably as many viewpoints on how we can evaluate all of these evidence issues as there are individuals. In fact, I'm counting on that being the case ...
You poked at us skeptics for thinking like this, I was simply pointing out that it's a prevalent theme in theism too. You and I see things differently from those folks, that's fine.
No, let's say that when I die (because I know for certain I will), and that I just happen to enter the Blessed Realm that the Bible speaks about. Am I do assume that if we're talking about the God of the Bible that "anything is possible"? Maye we've been reading different theology or philosophy books, Nick (it's been know to happen...), but I'm not under the impression that with the God of the Bible just "anything" is possible. And being that you said in an earlier post that you don't think anyone should presume to know "anything" about God and therefore conclude "anything" about His existence, I'm not sure you're in a place to tell us that it could be a Matrix situation. It's kind of inconsistent on your part to offer this quasi-Cartesian scenario; and I think Descartes himself would disagree with you.
I said I don't need to rely on my subjective opinions about what is good or bad.
If "all things are possible with Him" then why isn't "anything" possible?
We can't just toss around Matrix style scenarios like it's some kind of automatic, epistemic and metaphysical defeater.
Ordinarily I wouldn't throw it around like that. But we're talking about after a point which we've established enough evidence to warrant belief that there is a being that can shape reality and our perception of it at will. That's a bit different from the situation we find ourselves in daily.
From what you've said, you don't think anyone is in a position to do this, at least not apart from subscribing to the Bible's contents in some coherent way. Right? Or am I misunderstanding you on this points?
No one is in a position to disprove any gods' existence, correct. Arguments can be made about what any gods might be like, though. Honestly not sure what you meant by "this".
...well, let's just say that as far as I know, no other major religion identifies the ultimate evil with a scheme that implies the same recipe as does the Bible, even if those other religious figures may still generally suggest that we should swear off of doing what one of Avril Lavigne's new songs expresses that many of us end up doing .... and keep on doing. :smilingimp:
Okay, it seems you don't want to get into specifics on this, so I'll drop it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I certainly have a tendency to point out faulty logic....but I don't just declare victory. I generally give the person making the fallacy a chance to understand it, and change their argument.

I actually had to invent a fallacy to describe an argument that I kept seeing over and over and over from christians....but I could find no common name for. The old Esoteric Knowledge Gambit (it's already been used in this thread....just not against me).

The author of the article doesn't really understand the God of the Gaps problem.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Wow....that is sad those are the main points they got from all that experience with atheists.

Ironically, several of those are "fallacy of motive" points. They seek to invalidate atheist positions by questioning their motives for holding those positions...instead of the positions themselves.
He's actually just trying to build bridges of understanding...

maybe your fallaciously mischaracterizing his motive?

The concern for ulterior motives is a legitimate issue.

Very few people care about truth or truth's sake. There more interested in the bottom line... How are they supposed to live their life?

And many people think they don't like the Christian lifestyle in the world view. maybe the reverse is also true occasionally I don't know.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I certainly have a tendency to point out faulty logic....but I don't just declare victory. I generally give the person making the fallacy a chance to understand it, and change their argument.

I actually had to invent a fallacy to describe an argument that I kept seeing over and over and over from christians....but I could find no common name for. The old Esoteric Knowledge Gambit (it's already been used in this thread....just not against me).

The author of the article doesn't really understand the God of the Gaps problem.
Specifically, regarding the feeding the thousands miracles. Think those are easily explained prosaic Lee.

Wall the food was there the entire time. It just started off cashed in the pockets of all the Jews present. It was there midday lunch and snack food.

Jesus rolled a snowball that turned into an avalanche. By sharing food. He so to speak shamed the Jews present into also likewise similarly sharing the food they had. And Lo and behold, it turned out, they had for more food than they needed. It was a miracle of the heart a miracle of sharing. The first Christian collections plate. If you pool your resources and band together, you have More than you thought or need. The power of communal living.

And regarding walking on water. Having personally experienced something like this on an outward bound white water River rafting trip. I offer that the Apostles had become mired on a sandbar. Amidst the wind and waves they couldn't extract themselves. Jesus splashed out to them running through ankle deep water. And leaping into the boat he pushed them off into deeper water. In the darkness it looked like he was splashing on the surface. Yet the theological message is profound? All those who feel beset on all sides buffeted by winds above waves on the sides and mired in the muck below if they let Jesus into their lives. He can get them on the move on up and up again

obviously goes without saying I wasn't there this is all speculation. Hopefully healthy food for thought.
 
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Ana the Ist

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He's actually just trying to build bridges of understanding...

maybe your fallaciously mischaracterizing his motive?

Well to do that....I'd need to talk about his motives first, which I didn't do. It is possible though, that perhaps I mischaracterized his article. Let's look....

His first point....

"Some atheists are not as unconvinced by the evidence as they are upset with believers."

So right off the bat, he's attacking the motives of atheists instead of their positions.

His second point...

"I want to be careful not to over generalize here, but I often find a pattern in these interactions related to the relationship some of these speakers and guests have with their fathers."

Again...attacking the motives of atheists instead of their arguments. Maybe he gets back on track with his next point...

His third point...

"I also find many of our speakers have an underlying belief we, as Christians, are a monolithic conservative Republican voting block."

Yet again...attacking the motives, not arguments. See a pattern yet?

"Sadly, in the early days of our trips to Berkeley, it was clear our invited atheist guests didn’t think much of us as an audience."

This is the first point not about motives....but it still isn't about arguments. It's just a critique of atheists themselves.

So did I mischaracterize his article? No. The theme here is that atheists don't really have any strong arguments for their beliefs or lack thereof.....it's all about their feelings towards Christians, or their dads, or their politics.

I can honestly say that any Christian taking this article seriously is setting themselves up for some spectacularly bad discussions with atheists.

The concern for ulterior motives is a legitimate issue.

Sure...for non-theological discussions. I could, for example, criticize the average christian's fear of oblivion, need for "satisfying" answers, or desire for a special meaning to their lives (especially their suffering).....but none of these criticisms will actually invalidate their beliefs.

Very few people care about truth or truth's sake. There more interested in the bottom line... How are they supposed to live their life?

I think that more often they choose to believe what they find desirable. A good example is that probably 99.9999% of christians believe that most people are going to hell, but almost none of this group believe they are going to hell.

And many people think they don't like the Christian lifestyle in the world view. maybe the reverse is also true occasionally I don't know.

Occasionally?
 
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Erik Nelson

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David Hume defined them [Miracles] as “a transgression of a law of nature ... by the interposition of some invisible agent.”
Excerpt from Miracles by Eric Metaxas. Penguin Publishing Group.

Technically, dark matter and dark energy are quote Unquote Miracles.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I suppose I should've included "why this particular evidence?" like you did...
You could have done that, but all in all, I don't think it would make any difference in the long run for you to have done so.

Because this doesn't make any sense to me.
I'm sure it doesn't. Besides, it's not really supposed to, and it's not as if a Christian act of “doing” Christian Apologetics can really turn on the light for a skeptic anyway; it's not--and never has been--as if any one Christian could simply give some kind of scientifically laden explanation that will convince everyone she comes in contact with, no matter what. I've been saying this for a long time around here …

So why would a "political system" achieving that and people coming back from the dead be evidence christianity is wrong?
Why do you ask? From the way you couch your questions, it almost seems like you expect Christian explanations to have some kind of obvious, publicly objective and publicly verifiable phenomenon for all of us to study, with a chain attached and by which any of us could just yank and have the light come on. Unfortunately, finding faith doesn't work that way.

No, when it comes to religion, even when it comes to Christianity, you know as well as I that we each “choose” to believe, and we do this as a response to various socializing factors as well as in response to personal rationalizations. So, this is nothing new to think about for either me or you. Do you remember all of that “Hermeneutics” stuff I was talking about here a while back? Well, that still holds.

For instance, you're in the line of work that you're in, a line of work that I'm sure requires some intensive levels of analysis so that you can attempt to determine that entity X is what it is, as well as to attempt to establish that X is not of the form Y, even though X may look like a Y. But whether you realize it or not, you've “chosen” to go about your work and accepting the particular analytic praxis that has been handed to you ...and by which you then look out upon the world and attempt to determine the nature of this or that event or whatever. I'm surmising that you also apply this same praxis to your understanding of Christianity. The strange this is, we can find an instance of someone like J. Warner Wallace, a homicide detective, who, not too unlike you, has “chosen” to interpret his findings through the accepted praxis that he has been given. But he has “chosen” to relinquish his atheism, and you have “chosen”---even if you don't feel like it has been a choice---to retain our atheism.

You want a personal interpretation of "apocalyptic literature"?
No. I don't want 'your' interpretation. I didn't ask for it, did I? Although, it probably would make for an interesting discussion to see 'how' you have chosen to interpret the Bible and through what factors and sources, and their resulting praxis, you thereby interpret. But that's probably a discussion for another time.

That sounds more like an opinion than evidence.
No, it's a subjective perspective, but by this I mean subjective in Hermeneutical, even Existential, terms, not by the colloquial meaning.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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said I don't need to rely on my subjective opinions about what is good or bad.
....well, hermenuetically speaking, we all do whether we want to or not.

If "all things are possible with Him" then why isn't "anything" possible?
For us to understand what “is possible” with God, wouldn't we have to give credence to the conception of God that any one of the biblical writers more or less had in mind when constructing and expressing a narrative (or a letter) involving the use of language being applied to God?

To me, it seems strange and somewhat aloof for us to blithely assume that when we use the term 'god,' its denotation as well as its possible connotations must, in no uncertain terms, refer to some stratified conceptual concoction that philosophers have come up with. It seems even stranger to me that we then rely upon this conceptual schematic as some kind of finalized interpretive device by which we attempt to “understand” some fuller, deeper meanings given by the biblical writers. No, I think that kind of interpretive approach on our part is a bit presumptuous.

In sum, obviously, if we're going to 'dabble' in the supposed meanings of the biblical writers and then try to make some kind of extra-biblical deductions outside of that framework, then we probably need to understand something about the various cultural idioms by which those writers thought, lived and breathed. And this is one reason why we probably shouldn't assume that when the Bible says, “all things are possible,” that just instantly translates into our understanding to be “oh...just anything is possible.” In other words, one apple pie isn't necessarily the same as every other apple pie.

Ordinarily I wouldn't throw it around like that. But we're talking about after a point which we've established enough evidence to warrant belief that there is a being that can shape reality and our perception of it at will. That's a bit different from the situation we find ourselves in daily.

No one is in a position to disprove any gods' existence, correct. Arguments can be made about what any gods might be like, though. Honestly not sure what you meant by "this".
...I think I tend to differ here with many people in our understanding of the term “establish” as it may relate to God, humanly speaking. I'd instead propose that where abstract, transcendent entities are being engaged, whether just in thought or, if possible, in full living color, we can never be in a position to establish a warrant. No, all we can do is make choices moment by moment in response to the contexts we each think we perceive.

Now, if we want to build a passenger jet for the rest of us to ride in, by all means, please DO us all a big favor and establish enough evidence by which we ALL can attain warranted belief about the concepts in question [i.e. safely flying in a tube with wings, in this case … ] But when it comes to God, much of that praxis goes out the window and, in the end, is boiled down to the realm of deeper aesthetics, or shall we say, "felt choices."

Okay, it seems you don't want to get into specifics on this, so I'll drop it.
It's not that I don't want to get into specifics, but one has to sometimes think more soberly about how some concepts might be taken by other people on a public forum. Also, a person such as myself realizes that some concepts are held tentatively, even if still seriously, and may, in the final analysis, be wrong. I'd hate to be the one who is wrong about some important concept and, in that, mislead a bunch of folks. However, even with all of that said, I do think there is something to the concept of Solomon Syndrome, which really is nothing new since, “There's nothing new under the sun!”
 
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Neogaia777

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Everything we only think we know and/or experience here is a "fallacy", this reality is not really real and therefore makes it a fallacy, by definition...

What will become of us (humans)...? and, "in time" maybe...? another fallacy/illusion (time)... "What are we", and "what is all of "this" here...? The only thing really real here is the part or parts of us that we cannot see, smell, touch, taste, see, or hear (well, sometimes some of us do develop the ability to hear it or that, but not very many, but that's not important right now,

Unless your going to suggest that there is much more to us humans than meets the eye right now, or that we can currently know or see about ourselves right now, either specifically, individually, or generally, or as a race, just because we can "think" about certain things that other creatures don't, or can't... but to suggest that (that were more than just "this", that "what we really are" goes way beyond all of "this" or all we can possibly perceive with the senses, or that goes way beyond our current ways and methods of detecting and or seeing things right now) (which is extremely "primitive" right now) takes faith, a lot of faith right now anyway...

I think, therefore I AM (more than just the sum of physical parts or what meets the eye or that the eye can see right now)...

You either believe that, or you don't... either way it takes some measure of faith either way, even for the atheist to be truly atheist (maybe not to be agnostic), but to be a true atheist or true believer takes "faith" either way...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Agnostic says "I don't know"... and don't know, maybe even "can't know" (the kinds of thing both atheists and theologians claim to know for sure right now), but thinks it to be possible or probable, with varying measures of chance or likelihood among them (agnostics)...

But to be a 100% solid atheist, or a 100% solid believer takes a measure, and sometimes "great measure", of "faith" either way, for both are claiming to know fully in the stances or positions they take or claim on the subject...

God Bless!
 
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