Ancient Religions

[Zachm531]

A guy was trying to tell me that since the ancient egyptian, babalonian, inkin, sumerian etc... religious writings (around 3000 bc)predate the writings of The Torah, that Judaism was a copy of those religions. Abraham being the “Father” of our religion dated to around 2000bc, which still leaves atleast 1000 years between historical practice of Judaism and the mythological religions. Anyone know any good websites or articles that show the practice Judaism predating those other religions?(outside of the Bible)

 

[Chris V++]

Judaism may not have predated pagan religions. Wasn't Abraham a pagan of sorts before he was chosen? That doesn't mean that whatever that guy was insinuating abut Judaism coming later is correct.

 

[Tom 1]

A guy was trying to tell me that since the ancient egyptian, babalonian, inkin, sumerian etc... religious writings (around 3000 bc)predate the writings of The Torah, that Judaism was a copy of those religions. Abraham being the “Father” of our religion dated to around 2000bc, which still leaves atleast 1000 years between historical practice of Judaism and the mythological religions. Anyone know any good websites or articles that show the practice Judaism predating those other religions?(outside of the Bible)

No practice of Judaism before the practice of Babylonian and before that Sumerian religions, or for quite a while after Abraham in the way that we understand Judaism. David Rosenberg draws some interesting tangents between some less obvious aspects of Sumerian thinking and belief and some biblical ideas, albeit in a fairly broad fashion.
The flood story in Babylonian and Sumerian writings is almost certainly way older than the genesis account.
However the bible and Judaism developed, it most certainly didn’t happen in a vacuum. God may have chosen the Jewish people, but it’s not all as neat and tidy as the Sunday school version we’re all used to.

 

[Jonaitis]

We need to put a stop to the idea that "Christianity" was founded in 33 AD, and that Judaism predates it. Sure, some will argue that such was the only Jewish religion. I argue that the Christian faith was understood, preached, and believed even in the primitive church of the Old Testament, dating before Abraham - such as Adam, Noah, and Melchizedek. It was understood to be the true religion, and the shadows, types and promises found therein gave clear evidence that Christ was worshiped by the ancients for who he was - Savior.

You cannot call Abraham the 'father of the faith' and yet claim that he held to a different faith than our own. He lived in a different dispensation than our own, and the ordinances that God prescribed at that time was for the preparation of the true realities of what was under a shadow.

I would call it the Primitive Church, or Primitive Christianity, as the revelation of Christ was still progressively being revealed until the full revelation of it came in his person and work.

Adam placed his faith in the promise of Genesis 3:15, that predates all other religions.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Judaism may not have predated pagan religions. Wasn't Abraham a pagan of sorts before he was chosen? That doesn't mean that whatever that guy was insinuating abut Judaism coming later is correct.

Yep! Abraham was Sumerian, which is the oldest recorded civilisation.

 

[Noscentia]

We need to put a stop to the idea that "Christianity" was founded in 33 AD, and that Judaism predates it. Sure, some will argue that such was the only Jewish religion. I argue that the Christian faith was understood, preached, and believed even in the primitive church of the Old Testament, dating before Abraham - such as Adam, Noah, and Melchizedek. It was understood to be the true religion, and the shadows, types and promises found therein gave clear evidence that Christ was worshiped by the ancients for who he was - Savior.

I would argue this is the correct view. Given that we believe that God is the eternal, singular, creator of Heaven and Earth, and that all truth is God's truth, then there can be only one conclusion. In much the same vein as certain sciences, Christianity or Judaism weren't 'created' or 'founded', rather the truths of either religion are contingent and eternal and the religions that have sprung out of them are merely discoveries (or revealings) of that which is already true.

We don't create anything new as the religion changes names or appearance, but rather we refine our understanding of what is objectively true.

 

[Zachm531]

We need to put a stop to the idea that "Christianity" was founded in 33 AD, and that Judaism predates it. Sure, some will argue that such was the only Jewish religion. I argue that the Christian faith was understood, preached, and believed even in the primitive church of the Old Testament, dating before Abraham - such as Adam, Noah, and Melchizedek. It was understood to be the true religion, and the shadows, types and promises found therein gave clear evidence that Christ was worshiped by the ancients for who he was - Savior.

You cannot call Abraham the 'father of the faith' and yet claim that he held to a different faith than our own. He lived in a different dispensation than our own, and the ordinances that God prescribed at that time was for the preparation of the true realities of what was under a shadow.

I would call it the Primitive Church, or Primitive Christianity, as the revelation of Christ was still progressively being revealed until the full revelation of it came in his person and work.

Adam placed his faith in the promise of Genesis 3:15, that predates all other religions.

Well i didnt say he practiced a different religion than us. We are Jews who know Jesus. My question was about if anyone had knowledge or evidence(outside if the Bible) That shows a practice of worship to the one true God- Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim etc... BEFORE the practice of the mythical religions.

 

[Zachm531]

Well i didnt say he practiced a different religion than us. We are Jews who know Jesus. My question was about if anyone had knowledge or evidence(outside if the Bible) That shows a practice of worship to the one true God- Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim etc... BEFORE the practice of the mythical religions.

And “father of our religion” as in he was one of the front runners of our faith

 

[Jonaitis]

Well i didnt say he practiced a different religion than us. We are Jews who know Jesus. My question was about if anyone had knowledge or evidence(outside if the Bible) That shows a practice of worship to the one true God- Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim etc... BEFORE the practice of the mythical religions.

Well, outside the text of Scripture, you won't find much. We are talking thousands of years ago, before Abraham. If there is evidence outside the text of Scripture, we haven't found it yet.

I did find this interesting:

"The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan. The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan. Cush fathered Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord. Therefore it is said, 'Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord.' The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. From that land he went into Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, and Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city. Egypt fathered Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim (from whom the Philistines came), and Caphtorim." - Genesis 10:6-14

Babel is the ancient name of Babylon; Erech is the Hebrew name for Uruk; Accad is the Hebrew for Akkad; Shinar is the name for the eastern side of the Futile Crescent.

Is this no coincidence? It isn't, because this is literal history right here of where the Sumerians came from. Archaeology proves that the Sumerians were one of the earliest civilizations, and here it says that Nimrod's kingdom covered their city of Uruk. Their origin is here briefly mentioned in passing. It may be that Nimrod's kingdom was the height of the Sumerian's early influence.

 

[Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith]

A guy was trying to tell me that since the ancient egyptian, babalonian, inkin, sumerian etc... religious writings (around 3000 bc)predate the writings of The Torah, that Judaism was a copy of those religions. Abraham being the “Father” of our religion dated to around 2000bc, which still leaves atleast 1000 years between historical practice of Judaism and the mythological religions. Anyone know any good websites or articles that show the practice Judaism predating those other religions?(outside of the Bible)

I'm not sure I can disprove his claims specifically in the way you described, but when one looks into a lot of the mythologies people claim the Jewish people drew their religion from, it becomes clear they don't know what it is they're talking about.

One frequent argument regarding Egyptian mythology is that Horus was the inspiration for Messianic prophecies, particularly that he was born of a virgin. But Horus's conception is described in Egyptian mythology in two different accounts. One involves Isis being struck by lightning, and the other involves inappropriate behavior with animals. Thankfully, the biblical account of the Annunciation involves neither of those things.

Another argument is that Moses was actually a priest of Aten during Ancient Egypt's brief period of monotheism during the reign of Akhenaten. This theory comes from a (rather antisemitic) book by Sigmund Freud. Freud wrote the book in an attempt to psychoanalyze his way through history, but he was not a historian by any stretch of the imagination. His theories involve quite a few ifs, and they're pretty big ifs. In any case, few Egyptologists today take Freud's claims seriously, instead favoring Dedumose II, Ahmose I, or Tuthmosis II as candidates for the pharaohs described in the Exodus. (Tuthmosis II is my personal favorite candidate.)

As for Incan mythology, the Inca were a New-World people, so I doubt they had enough contact with the Jewish people prior to the beginnings of Judaism.

 

[thecolorsblend]

A guy was trying to tell me that since the ancient egyptian, babalonian, inkin, sumerian etc... religious writings (around 3000 bc)predate the writings of The Torah, that Judaism was a copy of those religions. Abraham being the “Father” of our religion dated to around 2000bc, which still leaves atleast 1000 years between historical practice of Judaism and the mythological religions. Anyone know any good websites or articles that show the practice Judaism predating those other religions?(outside of the Bible)

If you're referring to a certain recent thread here on CF, I believe that I may know to whom you are referring.

The issues you note in your OP are ordinarily raised by skeptics and atheists. My objection to that is rooted in my surprise at their reaction to the evidence. In a court of law, so many people agreeing with one another could be construed as corroborating testimony. In this case, atheists and skeptics see a vast preponderance of evidence... and somehow interpret that broad consensus as evidence of the artificiality of any manner of theistic belief.

Again, these ancient civilizations generally agreed about some conception of God and they even had similar views and opinions as to His character. In many cases, these civilizations had little or no contact with one another.

Doesn't that, then, suggest (A) the reality of God's existence and (B) that mankind knows Him and has at least some vague understanding of what He requires of us?

The apparent similarity in some of these religious beliefs is, I think, evidence of God's existence. I do not understand how it can be interpreted as evidence against the authenticity of theism.

But then, there are a lot of things I don't understand. The French, for example.

 

[Zachm531]

Yeah its very clear that when people say Judaism copied the mythological religions and that Jesus is a copy of Horus or Osiris or whoever it may be, that they have no idea what they are talking about. I 100% believe the factual accounts of the Bible. The guy i was debating doesnt believe in Judaism because other religions have writing predating judaism. His stance is that anything after the mythological religions, regardless of similarities or differences must just be a plagarism of previous ideas. So him not believing scripture, the only way i’d be able to convince him is if there was some outside form of evidence of Judaism predating the mythological religions(outside of the Bible).

And yeah a lot of people believe that Nimrod, which translates to “the rebel” was actually Gilgamesh of Sumeria which is pretty cool to see the accuracy of the Bible. Thanks for your help guys, if you end up finding anything please feel free to message me.

 

[1213]

A guy was trying to tell me that since the ancient egyptian, babalonian, inkin, sumerian etc... religious writings (around 3000 bc)predate the writings of The Torah, that Judaism was a copy of those religions. Abraham being the “Father” of our religion dated to around 2000bc, which still leaves atleast 1000 years between historical practice of Judaism and the mythological religions. Anyone know any good websites or articles that show the practice Judaism predating those other religions?(outside of the Bible)

I think it would be good to understand that oldest copy of some scripture is not necessary the original source. If we have found young Biblical scriptures, it is possible that the source is older. The problem is that we may not have founded the original or oldest and also that it is likely that the message was transferred orally long time before it was written. It is difficult to prove how things went, but one could as well claim that other cultures copied from Jewish tradition some of their beliefs.

 

[Chris V++]

I think it would be good to understand that oldest copy of some scripture is not necessary the original source. If we have found young Biblical scriptures, it is possible that the source is older. The problem is that we may not have founded the original or oldest and also that it is likely that the message was transferred orally long time before it was written. It is difficult to prove how things went, but one could as well claim that other cultures copied from Jewish tradition some of their beliefs.

That's a great point. The descendants of Noah would have been talking about the flood before Genesis was written, so the Epic of Gilgamesh could have been inspired by the real flood account. The Sumerians would have been descended from one of the flood survivors.