Ancient of Days

[ArmyMatt]

Don’t we behold the Father through the Son in the Spirit?

“beholding the energies as Light everywhere and radiating from the Incarnate Christ” may be synonymous with that though.

yes, and the Son is Incarnate. to look upon the face of Christ in glory is to look upon the face of God.

 

[Nick T]

heretical. no aspect of God's essence will ever be beheld by anyone.

It's worth emphasising though that the Energies of God are very much fully uncreated God just as much as His Essence is.
So while we don't understand the Beatific Vision in the way that Thomists understand it (that man can see the Divine Essence) we still hold firmly to the belief that the saints will (and do) see and experience God "face-to-face" fully and without mediation.

 

[prodromos]

we still hold firmly to the belief that the saints will (and do) see and experience God "face-to-face" fully and without mediation.

That would be Jesus.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That would be Jesus.

exactly, because He took on flesh, we can see God face to face without mediation, because God Himself has a human face.

 

[All4Christ]

no, just one. the other two were angels I believe.

Huh. I thought I heard differently than this and thought the Orthodox Church taught it made the Trinity manifest. I’ve apparently said the wrong thing to others about this.

ETA: Edited because I described it incorrectly.

 

[All4Christ]

Ok, so some research shows that the Fathers have mixed teachings in this. St Cyril and St Augustine are two that taught it literally was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity, explaining why Abraham spoke to the angels all in the singular form of Lord. Some others, like St Ambrose, taught that it was a “prototype” of the Holy Trinity. Others yet, like St Justin Martyr, taught that they were two angels along with the pre-incarnate Jesus.

The liturgical hymns speak about it either being or representing the Trinity. From Matins: “Of old holy Abraham entertained the one Godhead in three persons; while now the Word, enthroned with the Father and the divine Spirit, comes forth for the Youths, and he is greatly praised.” Ode 8: “Even that of old you might clearly reveal the triple hypostasis of the one Lordship, you appeared, my God, in human form to Abraham as he praised your single might.” However, the rest of the hymns are also speaking of “prototypes” of the Trinity, so that points towards this also being a type.

FWIW, here is the passage from St Cyril:

Behold, clearly it says God appeared unto him, truly being three men in appearance, the Holy Abraham approaching from afar speaking not as if to three: “Lords, if indeed I have found grace in your (pl.) sight, pass not by your (pl.) son,” but calling upon the threefold Lord singularly, as if to one, so that they might turn aside unto him, he asked “when,” and as one appearing in three, even as from one persona, they said, “Where is Sarra thy wife?” and responded, “I will come when the time is ripe.”

Discern therefore, discern indeed three appearing, and each identified by its respective hypostasis,1 in word subject to the consubstantial three comprehended in one, and thus intermingling the given work of conversation among themselves. But the likenesses of this mode are obscured in a certain way and are inferior to the truth, unless in some way they are to be used as a hand leading us into knowledge of their properties, which surpass the intellect and speech (obviously the light of the divine vision will penetrate only the most pure intellects), and as from these things which fall to the senses we fly unto that which to our senses and strength of reasoning are very far.

This is an interesting article about Early Christian understandings of the Hospitality of Abraham, especially outlining the Christological and Trinitarian approaches.

https://www.duq.edu/assets/Documents/theology/_pdf/faculty-publications/Bucur publications/JECS 2015 Genesis 18.pdf

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok, so some research shows that the Fathers have mixed teachings in this. St Cyril and St Augustine are two that taught it literally was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity, explaining why Abraham spoke to the angels all in the singular form of Lord. Some others taught that it was a “type” of the Holy Trinity. Others yet, like St Justin Martyr, taught that they were two angels along with the pre-incarnate Jesus.

The liturgical hymns speak about it either being or representing the Trinity. From Matins: “Of old holy Abraham entertained the one Godhead in three persons; while now the Word, enthroned with the Father and the divine Spirit, comes forth for the Youths, and he is greatly praised.” Ode 8: “Even that of old you might clearly reveal the triple hypostasis of the one Lordship, you appeared, my God, in human form to Abraham as he praised your single might.” On the other hand, the rest of the hymns are also speaking of “types” of the Trinity, so that could point towards this also being a type.

FWIW, here is the passage from St Cyril:


This is an interesting article about Early Christian understandings of the Hospitality of Abraham, especially outlining the Christological and Trinitarian approaches.

https://www.duq.edu/assets/Documents/theology/_pdf/faculty-publications/Bucur publications/JECS 2015 Genesis 18.pdf

it could also be more than one as true. the pre-Incarnate Christ with two angels can be seen as a prototype of the Trinity.

 

[All4Christ]

it could also be more than one as true. the pre-Incarnate Christ with two angels can be seen as a prototype of the Trinity.

Reading and learning about the NT through a typological lens is very interesting and gives an very rich holistic perspective of Scripture.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Reading and learning about the NT through a typological lens is very interesting and gives an very rich holistic perspective of Scripture.

sure does. and it's refreshing when you can affirm multiple interpretations as true, rather than bake your noodle trying to figure out which one is right.

 

[All4Christ]

sure does. and it's refreshing when you can affirm multiple interpretations as true, rather than bake your noodle trying to figure out which one is right.

Reconciling multiple sources and understandings to one view can be very frustrating. That was a standard practice for me before I became Orthodox. It was an adjustment, but having multiple differing views being right is, as you said, very refreshing.

 

[Andrewn]

I thought I heard differently than this and thought the Orthodox Church taught it was a form of the Trinity.

It seems that our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit appearing in physical forms goes against key verses in the NT.

 

[All4Christ]

It seems that our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit appearing in physical forms goes against key verses in the NT.

Yes, I agree about that, and Orthodoxy has consistently taught against depicting God the Father in physical form. Admittedly, it seems like a disparity when suggesting that the hospitality of Abraham is the Trinity. A “form” of the Trinity is a bit different, though still the wrong word (prototype would be better). I do find it fascinating to learn the history behind it though, and I am curious as to how the fathers I mentioned above reconciled their view of it literally being the Trinity with the teaching of the Father being Spirit. Perhaps they too meant a “type”, and it just wasn’t clear from my understanding.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that, while physically being the pre-incarnate Lord and Twitter angels, the hospitality of Abraham was a type of the Trinity - that the Trinity can be seen through that event, even when the Father isn’t truly inhabiting one of the angels. It was a physical event, but it also mystically reveals or makes manifest the Holy Trinity.

ETA: Some of the icons of the Hospitality of Abraham are labeled “The Holy Trinity”. It is slightly confusing when that is done - especially when it traditionally was labeled “the Hospitality of Abraham”. We cannot depict the Father, as you said, as it contradicts Scripture directly. I admittedly had some confusion myself in describing the event. I think what I wrote above in this post though is an Orthodox understanding (physically our Lord pre-incarnate, mystically representing the Holy Trinity).