Ancestral vs. Original Sin - and Mary

Markie Boy

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So I'm doing homework on Ancestral vs. Original Sin. Ancestral sounds much more Gospel like, where Original sounds very control oriented. So far I'm in with Ancestral - it's about God healing us.

But - if what we inherit is death, which is plain to see, and Mary died, she must have had Ancestral Sin.

However, does Orthodoxy hold that she remained free of personal sin?

And what are we washing away in Baptism, especially of an infant?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Mary did suffer from the ancestral sin. yes, she remained free of personal sins according to St Gregory Palamas.

when infants are baptized, they put on Christ which frees them from being enslaved to sin and death. so that whenever they die, their death is a passage to life.
 
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JohnTh

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Mary did suffer from the ancestral sin. yes, she remained free of personal sins according to St Gregory Palamas.

and St. Silouan the Athonite

[...]their death is a passage to life.

...If they repent for their personal sins. That is if they do the second baptism: the baptism of tears. (based on St. John of the Ladder)
 
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Barney2.0

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Ancestral and original sin are basically the same with different terms, like many other doctrinal differences between Orthodox and Catholics the result out of language differences between Eastern and Western Christianity. I have come to the understanding that Mary was purified of ancestral sin at the annunciation.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ancestral and original sin are basically the same with different terms, like many other doctrinal differences between Orthodox and Catholics the result out of language differences between Eastern and Western Christianity. I have come to the understanding that Mary was purified of ancestral sin at the annunciation.

no and no.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would be careful to focusing so much in the terms. A lot of Church theologians and documents use the term "original sin" for the ancestral one even my catechism book did the same.

while true, Al has a history on here of equating not just the terminology, but the theology.

we absolutely disagree with Rome's understanding of original sin.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I spoke to at least two Catholics today (it's our festival weekend) who questioned me about our theology only to reach the conclusion that "we are the same" ... even though I tried to kindly make the point that no, we don't believe this and we don't practice that. They seemed to want very much to believe that we are the same. I see it online frequently also. While I too prefer to focus on similarities in almost every case (not only with Catholics but any Christians) ... I myself won't gloss over where we truly differ if someone is asking.

But some people seem very invested to believe this.
 
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Not David

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I spoke to at least two Catholics today (it's our festival weekend) who questioned me about our theology only to reach the conclusion that "we are the same" ... even though I tried to kindly make the point that no, we don't believe this and we don't practice that. They seemed to want very much to believe that we are the same. I see it online frequently also. While I too prefer to focus on similarities in almost every case (not only with Catholics but any Christians) ... I myself won't gloss over where we truly differ if someone is asking.

But some people seem very invested to believe this.
The ultra trad Catholics who have called me "Eastern Schismatic" are more honest.
 
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Markie Boy

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My experience with the utra-trad Catholics has not been impressive. When discussing married priesthood with them, they ignore both Scripture, and the first 1000 years of Church history, in favor of their tradition.

At that point I write it off as I'm dealing with someone open to looking at the facts.
 
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The ultra trad Catholics who have called me "Eastern Schismatic" are more honest.
I spoke with many Catholics yesterday, including several priests. I must say the priests were among some of the most respectful, and while there can be slight "communication issues" we can be very cordial with each other.

It actually seems to be some of the kinder hearted but highly traditional Catholics who are sometimes very invested in finding us the same ... but I mean those who are very pious but perhaps not so theologically inclined.

One of my most delightful conversations was with three young Catholics who were VERY interested in theology and put some of the "hard questions" to me that I normally don't discuss with people (our particular theological opposition to the Filioque and the immaculate conception, among others) ... and were understanding of both the differences and the thinking behind it. I hope to meet them again. :)
 
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And as a follow-up, I almost never get strong criticism from Catholics. That comes (and still rarely) from Protestants, atheists, and other religions (Muslim, etc.). But most are not confrontational and I'm delighted at the common ground we usually can find, and that we can treat each other with respect. I used to see (just a few years ago) much more confrontation. And I was much more uncomfortable with it then. Now it is sometimes even an opportunity. Though I don't actually enjoy people being oppositional.
 
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Markie Boy

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Acts 22:16 - And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Does this apply to adult converts only? I'm not sure how an infant would have sins to wash away.
 
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All4Christ

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Acts 22:16 - And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Does this apply to adult converts only? I'm not sure how an infant would have sins to wash away.
Something that took me time to understand is the concept of sin as a whole. Remember that it isn’t “just” personal sin. We all, even infants, have missed the mark of the original intent of God. Like we mentioned earlier, even the Theotokos was impacted by ancestral sin. Note that this interpretation still doesn’t match the understanding of the non-personal guilt of the original sin in the Western church). Both any personal sins and the curse of ancestral sins need to be washed away. Sin isn’t just the western understanding of sin (at least what I learned about in my old church). It is all of what no longer matches that perfect design of God. It is everything that “misses the mark”. Jesus even saves the “cosmos”, the world, from the corruption of sin. Does that make sense?
 
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Barney2.0

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Rome's understanding of guilt, and what the implications of that are.

c'mon now, we have been through this before.
Yes we’ve been through back and forth on this and I’m not willing to do it all over again, since you replied to me, I’m just going to post the Roman Church’s Catechism on original sin:


404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

Saint Augustine (who developed the western concept of original sin) defined the term translated as guilt from Latin as reatus poena which is basically liability to punishment without personal fault in contrast to reatus culpa which is sin through personal fault.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes we’ve been through back and forth on this and I’m not willing to do it all over again, since you replied to me, I’m just going to post the Roman Church’s Catechism on original sin:


404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

Saint Augustine (who developed the western concept of original sin) defined the term translated as guilt from Latin as reatus poena which is basically liability to punishment without personal fault in contrast to reatus culpa which is sin through personal fault.

and again, for the umpteenth time, we disagree with what you just posted.
 
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Barney2.0

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and again, for the umpteenth time, we disagree with what you just posted.
Ok and where’s the difference and disagreement, this is something I genuinely want to understand because I simply am not getting it, which part of what as posted do Eastern Orthodox disagree with and where’s the agreement between the two sides.
 
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